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Old
05-07-2012, 11:29 AM
  #26
Shady Machine
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I think gordie should be the new head coach. He seems to know everything Bylsma did wrong.

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05-07-2012, 11:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Sometimes coaches just lose their team. That's why coaches that have won in the past get fired. The new coach comes in and makes changes.
And sometimes that works. And sometimes it makes things even worse. If you're advocating change for the sake of change with no thought as to what actually happened and what the best way to fix it is ... then be careful what you wish for.

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05-07-2012, 11:33 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
This has never happened except when a coach lost control of the team, correct? It's a convenient excuse. Every time we played the system correctly the past two years, we looked great. And when we weren't playing it correctly in the playoffs, and a lot of guys were unfocused, we looked like ****. So apparently, this happened because he lost control of the team. How did that happen exactly? Do u believe they looked at the evidence over the past two years and actually made the conscious choice that they weren't gonna play the right way because they had a better way? Or was it just the case that the coaching staff was fine, the system was fine, but a select group of players weren't playing up to their usual standard?

If you want to blame the coach for players not playing the way they are capable, and previously have always shown that they can play, then explain to me exactly how to combat it. Like Ray Shero said in his interview with NHL Live, at some point the players have to go out on the ice and execute. Sometimes some of the players just have to stand up and say, "I played like ****. It's not the coach's fault i ran out of position to chase a guy who was already being defended and left my man all alone 4 feet from the net. It's mine."
I generally agree with this point of view, but the coaching staff deserves some of the blame. Even though the players as a whole did not play the right way, we still lost that series on special teams. We were getting torched on the PK, yet DB and co. kept throwing the same set of players over the boards doing the same **** every time. That and his inability to call time outs when the momentum is shifting are the issues I had with the coaching. Yeah the timeout thing is probably overrated, but most NHL coaches use it to get their team's attention.

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05-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I think gordie should be the new head coach. He seems to know everything Bylsma did wrong.
I do know this though. Pens ownership has been very quiet and Ray Shero right after the Philadelphia debacle had a three hour meeting with this coaching staff. This stuff tells me that "Disco Dan" has just one more chance before they start handing out pink slips. If you were "Disco Dan" would you play Russian Roulette with your job by not at least replacing Tony Granato to show everybody that changes are going to take place because after that lousy penalty killing effort Granato should be removed. Or maybe "Disco Dan" is afraid this would damage his longstanding friendship with Granato. You now see why I'm so skeptical that anything will really change for 2012-2013.

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05-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
No offense, man, but these guys are adults, many of whom have been playing this system for a while. Blaming the coaching for players making stupid mistakes and giving half efforts at crucial times is a copout that absolves these guys of the responsibility they own as professionals. It happens from time to time with any team, i'm not trying to demonize them, but Jesus, they're not children, and they don't have any excuses. They know the game, and they know their system. If they're playing that way in the system they are familiar with, what is your solution? Give them new wrinkles so the unfocused players who are slumping can **** up the new concepts even worse than they were ****ing up the old ones?

This whole fan thing that makes it the coaches fault that professional players are playing poorly just blows my mind. Apparently next we'll be hearing that Ken Hitchcock is a dunce because the Blues just got worked in 4 games. It's amazing how a guy goes from being great to being dog **** in the space of week because the team didn't meet their expectations.
I'm sorry but you're just way off. Bylsma told the players to think FORWARD, sleep FORWARD, eat FORWARD, specifically right before the playoffs. The players WERE playing his system and playing it the way Bylsma wanted it played. We needed to stay back and look for turnovers and odd man rushes.

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05-07-2012, 11:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I generally agree with this point of view, but the coaching staff deserves some of the blame. Even though the players as a whole did not play the right way, we still lost that series on special teams. We were getting torched on the PK, yet DB and co. kept throwing the same set of players over the boards doing the same **** every time. That and his inability to call time outs when the momentum is shifting are the issues I had with the coaching. Yeah the timeout thing is probably overrated, but most NHL coaches use it to get their team's attention.
I don't really buy into the need for timeouts, at least not for a team that isn't laden with a bunch of younger inexperienced players like the Flyers have. I think a lot of people want to see the coach call it just because it's one of the few things a coach can actively do in a game, and people want the coaching staff to be way more responsible for what goes on between the whistles than they really are. As for the PK, i can agree with that, but at the same time, i have very little confidence in the alternatives being substantially better. Sometimes the best option is to let the players most suited for the role keep playing and hope they pull it together than lean on guys you haven't counted on in that role all year.

But regardless, those are two criticisms i respect and i understand the thought process behind them. Certainly, staying the course and trusting his players didn't result in anything good this time around. It's the blanket accusation that the coach must bear the blame any time his players don't play well that strikes me as silly. Mostly because noone can do what you did and actually provide a counterargument as to what he should have done differently. There's just an assumption with some people that if the team is playing great, that's what they should be doing, and when they're not, it has to be a coaching issue. There's no thought behind the criticism a lot of the time.

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05-07-2012, 11:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
I'm sorry but you're just way off. Bylsma told the players to think FORWARD, sleep FORWARD, eat FORWARD, specifically right before the playoffs. The players WERE playing his system and playing it the way Bylsma wanted it played. We needed to stay back and look for turnovers and odd man rushes.
um...what was happening against philly, was not Bylsma's system. You can say it was Bylsma's fault that we played poorly and I can't object to that but we were playing something that the pens have never played before under Bylsma.

And there is nothing wrong with focusing your mind on going FORWARD...other wise, your standing still or retreating...

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05-07-2012, 11:56 AM
  #33
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Bylsma wanted a forward thinking team, and the players played exactly the way he asked. Did you watch any of the games, if anything the players were trying too hard? They were overthinking the game, and letting the little things go? That comes back to coaching and preperation. The offense was fine with the amount of goals we scored but our defensive system was terrible. And that my SON is coaching. Stop making yourself look ridiculous, and stop arguing a point you lost long LONG ago.

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05-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
This has never happened except when a coach lost control of the team, correct? It's a convenient excuse. Every time we played the system correctly the past two years, we looked great. And when we weren't playing it correctly in the playoffs, and a lot of guys were unfocused, we looked like ****. So apparently, this happened because he lost control of the team. How did that happen exactly? Do u believe they looked at the evidence over the past two years and actually made the conscious choice that they weren't gonna play the right way because they had a better way? Or was it just the case that the coaching staff was fine, the system was fine, but a select group of players weren't playing up to their usual standard?

If you want to blame the coach for players not playing the way they are capable, and previously have always shown that they can play, then explain to me exactly how to combat it. Like Ray Shero said in his interview with NHL Live, at some point the players have to go out on the ice and execute. Sometimes some of the players just have to stand up and say, "I played like ****. It's not the coach's fault i ran out of position to chase a guy who was already being defended and left my man all alone 4 feet from the net. It's mine."
I don't need to know exactly how it happened, to know that it happened. Of course the coach isn't the one out on the ice executing, but look at what a coach actually CAN control, at least in theory.

A coach can control the atmosphere and the tone about the team. A coach can have his guys focused and disciplined, through good work habits day in and day out. A coach controls how much freedom the players have on the ice and how much improvisation he will tolerate from his players. All that stuff is under DB's control and it's based on the way he relates to the team, and through his ability to hold players accountable. All that stuff goes right to the level of consistent performance and execution.

Two words, discipline and accountability. They had none. How could you take one look at what happened in the disgraceful Game 3, that full-scale meltdown, and not see that.

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05-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
Bylsma wanted a forward thinking team, and the players played exactly the way he asked. Did you watch any of the games, if anything the players were trying too hard? They were overthinking the game, and letting the little things go? That comes back to coaching and preperation. The offense was fine with the amount of goals we scored but our defensive system was terrible. And that my SON is coaching. Stop making yourself look ridiculous, and stop arguing a point you lost long LONG ago.

no i didnt watch any of the games. I thought step 1 was make conclusions, step 2 was blindly defend them. Step 3, watch YT highlights.

And is the part about arguing a point lost long ago to me? This was my first post in the thread

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05-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
um...what was happening against philly, was not Bylsma's system. And there is nothing wrong with focusing your mind on going FORWARD...other wise, your standing still or retreating...
The players did exactly what Bylsma asked of them. Played a forward game with no responsibility in behind and in front of their own net. When it came out that Bylsma told them this it was the beginning of the end for this years playoff run. I don't want Bylsma fired at all, he's still a relatively new coach who has LOT's to learn yet. And he get's outcoached all of the time, regular season and playoffs. If you can't admit that then take off the goggles boys.

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05-07-2012, 12:00 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
The players did exactly what Bylsma asked of them. Played a forward game with no responsibility in behind and in front of their own net. When it came out that Bylsma told them this it was the beginning of the end for this years playoff run. I don't want Bylsma fired at all, he's still a relatively new coach who has LOT's to learn yet. And he get's outcoached all of the time, regular season and playoffs. If you can't admit that then take off the goggles boys.
saying the same thing over and over again does not make it more right.

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05-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
no i didnt watch any of the games. I thought step 1 was make conclusions, step 2 was blindly defend them. Step 3, watch YT highlights.

And is the part about arguing a point lost long ago to me? This was my first post in the thread
That post was not for you, I did address your post though.

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05-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #39
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Once more thought.

Philly had our number all year. Where the Pens destroyed the entire rest of the league all year. The Devils had no solution for us when we played them, the Rangers looked lost trying to deal with us. Maybe the Flyers just were an impossibly bad matchup for how we were playing. Like the Devils who always had our number in the past. Or maybe we just had a bad series at the worst possible time of the year. Again, either way, it looks like Bylsma's system does work. We beat almost everyone all year long, and have won the cup recently. And certainly there needs to be some tweaking of personel this offseason.

But I can not say enough, perspective people. You all are overreacting to 4 bad games and one bad week.

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05-07-2012, 12:02 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
saying the same thing over and over again does not make it more right.
Ditto

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05-07-2012, 12:03 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Once more thought.

Philly had our number all year. Where the Pens destroyed the entire rest of the league all year. The Devils had no solution for us when we played them, the Rangers looked lost trying to deal with us. Maybe the Flyers just were an impossibly bad matchup for how we were playing. Like the Devils who always had our number in the past. Or maybe we just had a bad series at the worst possible time of the year. Again, either way, it looks like Bylsma's system does work. We beat almost everyone all year long, and have won the cup recently. And certainly there needs to be some tweaking of personel this offseason.

But I can not say enough, perspective people. You all are overreacting to 4 bad games and one bad week.
Really? Could have sworn they whipped our ***** a few times.

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05-07-2012, 12:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
I don't really buy into the need for timeouts, at least not for a team that isn't laden with a bunch of younger inexperienced players like the Flyers have. I think a lot of people want to see the coach call it just because it's one of the few things a coach can actively do in a game, and people want the coaching staff to be way more responsible for what goes on between the whistles than they really are. As for the PK, i can agree with that, but at the same time, i have very little confidence in the alternatives being substantially better. Sometimes the best option is to let the players most suited for the role keep playing and hope they pull it together than lean on guys you haven't counted on in that role all year.

But regardless, those are two criticisms i respect and i understand the thought process behind them. Certainly, staying the course and trusting his players didn't result in anything good this time around. It's the blanket accusation that the coach must bear the blame any time his players don't play well that strikes me as silly. Mostly because noone can do what you did and actually provide a counterargument as to what he should have done differently. There's just an assumption with some people that if the team is playing great, that's what they should be doing, and when they're not, it has to be a coaching issue. There's no thought behind the criticism a lot of the time.
Good response. I agree for sure. The timeout thing is just a thing that bothers me as a fan. It doesn't mean Bylsma is right or wrong for not taking them just because I want him to. He has a better pulse on the team than I do, that's for sure. I just see it as a way to stop the momentum of the other team and rally the troops. The first game we are up 3-0, I call the timeout when they make it 3-2 and you can feel the momentum shifting. It may not do anything and it may not be necessary, but it at least stops the play for a few minutes.

With the PK, I think you absolutely have to make a change in that series. I mean, they were scoring on a greater than 50% clip and showed no signs of stopping. There was one shift that is stuck in my mind. Staal lost 3 consecutive defensive zone face offs and they finally put Sid out. He won the draw, we iced the puck, and he got right back off the ice. They never put Sid out for the PK again. I just really felt like throwing Sid or Geno out there a few times would have thrown off their PP. And at the very least, it couldn't make things any worse.

Going forward, we need to incorporate Sid, Geno, Kunitz into the PK. I look at the other teams in the playoffs and most of them put their best players (offensive included) on the PK. What makes us so different?

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05-07-2012, 12:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
Ditto
i read your post, made my point about it, you responded with the same exact thing...thats when I decided you weren't worth arguing with.

I made one post with an opinion in it and thats it. You've done nothing but say the same thing over and over in this thread.

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05-07-2012, 12:05 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by gordie View Post
I do know this though. Pens ownership has been very quiet and Ray Shero right after the Philadelphia debacle had a three hour meeting with this coaching staff. This stuff tells me that "Disco Dan" has just one more chance before they start handing out pink slips. If you were "Disco Dan" would you play Russian Roulette with your job by not at least replacing Tony Granato to show everybody that changes are going to take place because after that lousy penalty killing effort Granato should be removed. Or maybe "Disco Dan" is afraid this would damage his longstanding friendship with Granato. You now see why I'm so skeptical that anything will really change for 2012-2013.
You're not stating anything that isn't obvious, beyond the part at the end where you spiral out of control with your speculation. It's a foregone conclusion for any team that after a huge playoff disappointment everyone's job becomes a little more suspect ... it's just the nature of the beast. Whatever moves are made going forward, however, will be moves made to increase their chances of winning, whether it be front office, coaching staff, or player movement. And based on the actual evidence of what went wrong in the series and why, who the culprits were, and how best to correct the situation, i'll be surprised if at the end of next year we'll see anyone new behind the bench.

It won't be because the Pens front office are buddies, don't want to win, or aren't as smart as you are. It'll be because the fixes will occur elsewhere, with an eye toward making the team better as opposed to making a group of angry fans happy for an offseason.

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05-07-2012, 12:07 PM
  #45
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Devils are huge on the wings. Look at this.

Bernier 6-3" 220
Ponikarovsky 6-4" 225
Zubrus 6-5" 225
Kovalchuk 6-3" 230

The way it's set up we have one of each situated on one of the 4 lines. And I didn't mention Zajac or Clarkson who aren't exactly small.

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05-07-2012, 12:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Once more thought.

Philly had our number all year. Where the Pens destroyed the entire rest of the league all year. The Devils had no solution for us when we played them, the Rangers looked lost trying to deal with us. Maybe the Flyers just were an impossibly bad matchup for how we were playing. Like the Devils who always had our number in the past. Or maybe we just had a bad series at the worst possible time of the year. Again, either way, it looks like Bylsma's system does work. We beat almost everyone all year long, and have won the cup recently. And certainly there needs to be some tweaking of personel this offseason.

But I can not say enough, perspective people. You all are overreacting to 4 bad games and one bad week.
I said it before. We are notoriously bad against high scoring run and gun, open style teams. We, as a team have a tendency to play whatever style the opposing team wishes to play. If the opposing team wishes to play a defensive style, we typically end up on top. We're great at playing tight hockey and capitalizing of turnovers with our skill. BUT, only if that's the way the other team wants to play. When teams like OTTAWA, PHILLY, ISLES, WINNIPEG, etc. come to the rink and play an open style pond hockey game we have trouble winning or stopping them at all. I've seen it over and over. Our coaching staff doesn't dictate any of the games, the beauty of the Penguins is that we're so talented, it usually doesn't matter cause we can beat most teams no matter how they want to play. I hate when Bylsma says, we have to get to our game, BECAUSE, we don't have a game, and THAT is what Disco Dan needs to work on.

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05-07-2012, 12:09 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
i read your post, made my point about it, you responded with the same exact thing...thats when I decided you weren't worth arguing with.

I made one post with an opinion in it and thats it. You've done nothing but say the same thing over and over in this thread.
1+1 will always = 2
I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to put it!

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05-07-2012, 12:13 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Good response. I agree for sure. The timeout thing is just a thing that bothers me as a fan. It doesn't mean Bylsma is right or wrong for not taking them just because I want him to. He has a better pulse on the team than I do, that's for sure. I just see it as a way to stop the momentum of the other team and rally the troops. The first game we are up 3-0, I call the timeout when they make it 3-2 and you can feel the momentum shifting. It may not do anything and it may not be necessary, but it at least stops the play for a few minutes.

With the PK, I think you absolutely have to make a change in that series. I mean, they were scoring on a greater than 50% clip and showed no signs of stopping. There was one shift that is stuck in my mind. Staal lost 3 consecutive defensive zone face offs and they finally put Sid out. He won the draw, we iced the puck, and he got right back off the ice. They never put Sid out for the PK again. I just really felt like throwing Sid or Geno out there a few times would have thrown off their PP. And at the very least, it couldn't make things any worse.

Going forward, we need to incorporate Sid, Geno, Kunitz into the PK. I look at the other teams in the playoffs and most of them put their best players (offensive included) on the PK. What makes us so different?
Good points. You're probably right that they gave their PK too much rope. Regardless of how good it had been the previous two years, there were guys out there that just weren't getting the job done, and at some point (especially with how undisciplined the entire team was playing, and how much the refs were getting suckered into dives) you have to get at least a couple of the worst performers out of there and hope for the best. I'm a proponent of dancing with who brought you, but there's always a point where any line of thinking needs to be reconsidered.

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05-07-2012, 12:18 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Tundra View Post
Devils are huge on the wings. Look at this.

Bernier 6-3" 220
Ponikarovsky 6-4" 225
Zubrus 6-5" 225
Kovalchuk 6-3" 230

The way it's set up we have one of each situated on one of the 4 lines. And I didn't mention Zajac or Clarkson who aren't exactly small.
It's an interesting point, but i think playing disciplined, anticipating well and having the type of work ethic that allows the players to get to the loose pucks quicker than the Flyers can has just as much to do with their success. The Devs are playing so fast right now, and so much of that has to do with playing on their toes, reading the play correctly and just reacting, playing full speed with no reservations. That intelligence and work ethic was just absent from the Pens in the first series.

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05-07-2012, 12:21 PM
  #50
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Brodeur's also not letting in softies left, right, and center.

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