Personnally I haven't watched Erik Johnson play at all, so the only thing I can say about him is stuff I have heard. And most of the time, things we hear are total crap.
But, I have watched Subban many, many times in the last years and I must say: he is one hell of an excpetionnal player. Everytime he touches the puck, people get up their seats to see what's going to happen. People know he's great offensively, and defensively, he got so much better (his +9 on a last place team tells a lot), and he isn't afraid to play a physical game too (see all the big hits he dishes out).
From what I heard about Johnson, he isn't really as exceptionnal. So, though I admit I haven't seen Johnson really play, I guess I would take Subban...
Erik Johnson isn't even close, his 5th in PK ice time, 3rd in Even strength ice time, 1st in PP ice time, and he doesn't play the other teams best. Johnson managed all of 26 points and a -7 despite clearly playing an offensive role, not #1 defenseman production. Johnson barely plays on the PK, unlike any other so called #1 defenseman. Johnson didn't even play 1st pairing minutes at even strength, what #1 defenseman doesn't? Let's face it the guy is unlikely to live up to his potential. He looks like a solid two way top 4 defenseman, not a #1 guy. He has the chance to become a very good player, but Subban unlike Johnson already is.
Subban is a #1 defenseman, people hate him for some reason but there is zero tangible evidence Johnson is better than Subban.
I've asked Colorado fans for something to post in his favor over and over, but they never do. All i get is, Sacco is dumb, anybody who watches knows Johnson has godlike ability despite his results and usage, and i know nothing about the Avalanche as i foolishly post facts to prove my points. Anybody who knows anything wouldn't use facts, and would state their apparently irrefutable opinion that Johnson is a future Norris winner. Go Avs Go!
I don't even know why I'm bothering replying as you always have something negative to say about the Avs but i'll take a swing at it. Ej isn't number one in PK time simply because the Ryan O'byrne and Hejda are very good defensive defenseman. Ej is our best defenceman, he is great defensively extremely strong on the puck, manages it well and is a great skater. The guys 23(I think) and is only gonna get better. Johnson is alot better than given credit for and I think soon he's gonna make people take notice.
And If the Avs had a better coach he would have more ice time. Sacco seems to reward hard workers IE. meat and potato's type of players rather than better players I think because he was in their position at one point.
Johnson just seems to get worse every year, especially offensively.
He's gotten massively better this year. I don't get why people make statements like this when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. This is why EJ has a bad reputation.
He's gotten massively better this year. I don't get why people make statements like this when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. This is why EJ has a bad reputation.
Because EJ is an American playing in an American market and Subban is a Canadian playing in a Canadian market.
Liles has also magically gotten better ever since I got traded to the Leafs.
He's gotten massively better this year. I don't get why people make statements like this when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. This is why EJ has a bad reputation.
As a very pro-Subban supporter in this poll myself, I don't find the Johnson has gotten worse arguments have much merit as well. His numbers aren't there, but that does not mean he's regressing.
At defense? EJ. Potentially if both hit their ceilings? That's EJ to. Both kids have boatloads of talent though, few guys in the NHL are as unstoppable as either one when they're bringing the puck up and both should just keep getting better.
Because EJ is an American playing in an American market and Subban is a Canadian playing in a Canadian market.
which means that PK is WAYYYY more scrutinized than EJ, which is the case here. Some great quotes about PK:
Pierre LeBrun of ESPN.com and TSN agrees.
“I know this: I’d want this guy on my team, because once he finds his ceiling, he’s going to contend for the Norris Trophy,” LeBrun wrote on ESPN.com. “You just have to live with the up-and-down journey on the way there.”
Too much was expected this season from sophomore defenseman P.K. Subban, but he remains a genuine star in the making and, with more maturity and experience, could blossom into a future Norris contender.
Yeah actually I have satellite thanks very much and the other Canadian teams are blanked out which is why I have Center Ice. Thanks for being a scout though and watching all 82 habs games to share your opinion. Notice how I didn't voice mine on EJ because I've only seen him minimal times? That's what smart people do in order not to look stupid, but you've already done that above judging by your synopsis of Subban.
If the requirement to voice your opinion on another team's player was to watch said person 82 times a year, there wouldn't be any hockey analysts in the league nor any reputable hockey fans.
In debates like these all we have to go on are the 5-10 games of each player we MIGHT catch. Those who watch less either voice that fact or they try to hide it to validate their uneducated opinion.
If the requirement to voice your opinion on another team's player was to watch said person 82 times a year, there wouldn't be any hockey analysts in the league nor any reputable hockey fans.
In debates like these all we have to go on are the 5-10 games of each player we MIGHT catch. Those who watch less either voice that fact or they try to hide it to validate their uneducated opinion.
I clearly overreacted by saying 82 games but that was far from the point of my post.
He's gotten massively better this year. I don't get why people make statements like this when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. This is why EJ has a bad reputation.
I don't get what so hard to understand about it? A lot of people don't watch the Avs often and EJ hasn't put up the type of numbers that people can look at and assume he's awesome. It takes most casual fans a few games to realize just how well EJ uses his size, skating and strength to win battles in the corners, take the puck away from people and bring it up ice. That's why so many people don't realize that how ****ing good he is. It's cool though, I love having him and if we can find him a quality partner like Garrison this offseason and he stays healthy, we'll see beast-mode EJ for the whole season and maybe the exposure of playoff hockey will get people to realize what's obvious to so many of us who watch him on the regs.
There is no tangible evidence to prove Johnson is better defensively since Subban gets the tougher defensive assignments and outproduced Johnson despite playing those minutes. Not to mention that Subban gets the majority of zone starts in his own end.
I don't get what so hard to understand about it? A lot of people don't watch the Avs often and EJ hasn't put up the type of numbers that people can look at and assume he's awesome. It takes most casual fans a few games to realize just how well EJ uses his size, skating and strength to win battles in the corners, take the puck away from people and bring it up ice. That's why so many people don't realize that how ****ing good he is. It's cool though, I love having him and if we can find him a quality partner like Garrison this offseason and he stays healthy, we'll see beast-mode EJ for the whole season and maybe the exposure of playoff hockey will get people to realize what's obvious to so many of us who watch him on the regs.
I just don't get why they post. If I know nothing or little about the player I'm not gonna make posts stating opinions about them. Unless their just saying this stuff to justify picking subban.
I don't have an issue with people choosing subban as much as I have an issue with people saying that EJ is a 2-3 defenseman because they read it on a forum last summer.
EJ has become overrated by all the Avs fans saying he's underrated.
He's really not that good.
Doesn't mean much coming from you when you're talking about an Avs player.
Anyways, Subban is obviously better offensively, EJ is better all-around player IMO. They're both still young and will continue to grow and become better. Key is that Avs need to find a better partner for EJ, more stay home defender so EJ can jump in the plays more and none of the SOB crap.
I just don't get why they post. If I know nothing or little about the player I'm not gonna make posts stating opinions about them. Unless their just saying this stuff to justify picking subban.
I don't have an issue with people choosing subban as much as I have an issue with people saying that EJ is a 2-3 defenseman because they read it on a forum last summer.
This is a draft board, EJ got picked #1 overall so people judge him against guys like Stamkos or Crosby, a comparison he'll always fail in. Also there's people who don't remember Chara's younger years when he was exactly where EJ is, consistently getting better but still with a lot of room to grow. Hell Chara wasn't a great #1 until his late 20s and yet the 23 year old EJ can never be a #1...there's not much logic behind it, but whatevs.
Doesn't mean much coming from you when you're talking about an Avs player.
Anyways, Subban is obviously better offensively, EJ is better all-around player IMO. They're both still young and will continue to grow and become better. Key is that Avs need to find a better partner for EJ, more stay home defender so EJ can jump in the plays more and none of the SOB crap.
Eh, EJ's played great with Hunwick, Liles and Quincey, guys who jump into the play, the issue is EJ needs a partner that won't leave him out to hang regularly the way SOB did, as long as they're smart and responsible, that can be a guy who jumps up into the play.
Erik Johnson isn't even close, his 5th in PK ice time, 3rd in Even strength ice time, 1st in PP ice time, and he doesn't play the other teams best. Johnson managed all of 26 points and a -7 despite clearly playing an offensive role, not #1 defenseman production. Johnson barely plays on the PK, unlike any other so called #1 defenseman. Johnson didn't even play 1st pairing minutes at even strength, what #1 defenseman doesn't? Let's face it the guy is unlikely to live up to his potential. He looks like a solid two way top 4 defenseman, not a #1 guy. He has the chance to become a very good player, but Subban unlike Johnson already is.
Subban is a #1 defenseman, people hate him for some reason but there is zero tangible evidence Johnson is better than Subban.
I've asked Colorado fans for something to post in his favor over and over, but they never do. All i get is, Sacco is dumb, anybody who watches knows Johnson has godlike ability despite his results and usage, and i know nothing about the Avalanche as i foolishly post facts to prove my points. Anybody who knows anything wouldn't use facts, and would state their apparently irrefutable opinion that Johnson is a future Norris winner. Go Avs Go!
What are you talking about? After the Avs traded for Johnson, he was playing like 25-26 minutes a night.
This season, he played through back spasms (missed 10 games because of them), and had a brace on his right wrist since about mid-November. When he's partnered up with Shane O'Brien or Matt Hunwick, he's gonna have a hard time getting tons of ice time. They are both horrible.
And yes, Joe Sacco is a huge reason why EJ didn't play a ton this season. Go look at all of our defensemens ice-time averages...they all play similar amounts. It's one of Sacco's weird tendencies that has always been there, except for right after the trade last year when we got EJ and he rode him all game long (no homo).
You can say whatever you want, but if you actually sit down and watch an Avs game, you CLEARLY see that EJ is by FAR the best defensemen on this team. No stat can show all of the little things he does.
That's because he was. And that's great since he's proving us he can adapt to different situations, and we have yet to see his ceiling.
Really, people get influenced way too much by the position Johnson got drafted. Similar to the JVR hype.
If anything it's quite the opposite. People expect Ovechkin, Stamko's and Crosby level impact. People constantly call him a bust or a disappointment but the reality is he's a 23 year old 1st pairing defencemen with incredible upside.
Just because someone would prefer him to Subban doesn't mean they are influenced by draft position, it most likely means they actually have watched him.
I've asked Colorado fans for something to post in his favor over and over, but they never do. All i get is, Sacco is dumb, anybody who watches knows Johnson has godlike ability despite his results and usage, and i know nothing about the Avalanche as i foolishly post facts to prove my points. Anybody who knows anything wouldn't use facts, and would state their apparently irrefutable opinion that Johnson is a future Norris winner. Go Avs Go!
Hits:
Johnson-123
Subban-105
Give aways:
Johnson-44
Subban-88
Takeaways:
Johnson-35
Subban-26
Johnson had 93 less penalty minutes, despite only having one less fight.
Johnson put up 2 less powerplay points, despite playing 8 less games, and averaging more than a minute less per game on the powerplay.
Subban:
Gp-77, G-14, A-24, Pts-38, rookie season (21 years old)
Gp-81, G-7, A-29, Pts-36, Sophomore season (22 years old)
Johnson:
Gp-69, G-5, A-28, Pts-33, rookie season (19 years old)
Injured whole year
Gp-77, G-10 , A-29 , Pts-39 , Sophomore season (21 years old)
So very similar rookie seasons, despite Johnson being 2 years younger in his. Then he had a better sophomore year, despite being one year younger in his season.
Anyways, I think a lot of it is preference. Bigger and steadier, or faster and more dynamic. Both can throw big hits, and have produced similar offense. Can't go wrong with either. Subban isn't likely to produce as little as Johnson has the last two seasons, but I think going forward they're numbers will always be close. Subban more goals, Johnson more assists.
That's because he was. And that's great since he's proving us he can adapt to different situations, and we have yet to see his ceiling.
Really, people get influenced way too much by the position Johnson got drafted. Similar to the JVR hype.
If EJ was drafted in the 2nd round like Subban he'd be drooled over on HFBoards for being a young talented defenseman. Since he went #1 overall and was brought to the league at such a young age (compared to defenders) people forget he's only a year only than Subban.
If anything it's quite the opposite. People expect Ovechkin, Stamko's and Crosby level impact. People constantly call him a bust or a disappointment but the reality is he's a 23 year old 1st pairing defencemen with incredible upside.
Just because someone would prefer him to Subban doesn't mean they are influenced by draft position, it most likely means they actually have watched him.
Erik Johnson has been in the NHL for 5 seasons now. Incredible upside? It would be about time he translate that said upside onto his game. Don't get me wrong, he's a tremendous defenseman, but he's ideally a number 2 on a good team. I can actually relate his situation to the up and coming Ryan Murray. A sure bet to be a reliable, steady defenseman, but not "the" go-to guy on a team, something I believe Subban has in him.
We'll have to wait and see, I guess, but Erik Johnson is always about promises and "upside" while the actual product you get on the ice does not really represent that. Like I said, a steady, reliable defenseman that can assume first unit duties, but not the general on the defense.
I'll just have to pick Subban here. He's just dynamite, on both ends, and he plays with an edge. And he actually does have an incredible upside.
