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Barry Trotz needs to be fired

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Old
05-07-2012, 05:12 PM
  #226
RaiderDoug
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Originally Posted by ILikeItILoveIt View Post
I suggest those ticked off at Trotz for not winning a Cup yet to adopt the BJs or the Wild or the Jets. Ask those teams if they could turn the clock back to 1998 and 2000 whether they would rather have the DP/Trotz duo running their franchise or the cast of Bozo's they've hired and fired since then.
Why is it always:

"If we make a change, we'll obviously turn very quickly into the BJ's or the Wild or the Maple Leafs".

You'd think every team that ever made a change would never win another game again.

Sometimes, you make a change and good things happen.

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05-07-2012, 05:16 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
If that's the case, might as well load up the trucks to Hamilton - because people aren't going to continue to put up with the ever increasing price of season tickets when the return is, at best, a second round flameout. Mediocrity breeds apathy.
The Kings, Blues, Canucks, Sabres, etc. manage to fill up their buildings, despite decades of agony and never winning a Cup. If we can't do the same, we simply don't deserve to host a team. Plain and simple.

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I think folks could stomach a rebuilding year or two - it's how you land the Crosbys and the Ovechkins and the Toews/Kanes, etc.
I can certainly stomach rebuilding. It's generally part of the normal cycle. But for all the high draft picks that turn into franchise talents, there are also busts. I can think of several on this team that were high draft picks that just didn't work out. I can think of numerous ones on other teams as well.

And then you have a situation like the Oilers...you have a team that has been in the gutter, and managed to grab the #1 pick 3 straight seasons...and have an excellent group of talent up front. Just having a high draft pick isn't going to guarantee that you're going to suddenly have a Cup contender. Pittsburgh and Chicago struck gold. Washington, with Ovechkin, still hasn't won a Cup. Heck, Ovechkin still hasn't gotten them out of the second round.

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You don't need to be consistenly competitive to win a championship. Ask Tampa, Carolina, Chicago, Anaheim. That all missed the playoffs soon before or soon after winning a cup.
That is certainly true. On the flip side, though, 2 of those examples (Carolina and Anaheim) have seen a decent dropoff in attendance since their Cup years, and are below us in that regard. So you could also argue that even with a Cup, it's not going to guarantee that fan support will remain solid. That's not a knock on those two franchises...they're still in good shape (as far as I know)...but I don't think winning the Cup, but not being consistent, is going to guarantee us a healthy franchise.

In Chicago's case...that had years of bad management, and awful attendance. Cup or not, I never want to see that here.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
The goal is to win a Stanley Cup. Anything less is a failure. Doesn't mean we should sack the entire team every season. But either you're trying to win a cup or not.

Who the heck puts together a team whose goal is the playoffs, and then hoping to get lucky? The goal is always the Cup.
How about you ask the team and the coaches what the goal is? You think the response is "uhh...yeah...let's just make the playoffs, then pack it in." Every single one of our boys wants to win it. Every single one of them will be disappointed if they don't. Trotz included in that group. The problem is, as much as they want it...so does every other player in the playoffs. No one comes in with the attitude of NOT trying to win it all. Look at the Kings. They drew an 8th seed against a powerful Vancouver team. They limped into the playoffs, but that didn't mean they weren't going to try for it all.

At the end of the season, 29 teams go home disappointed. That doesn't mean their effort was in vain. That doesn't mean they didn't try. That doesn't mean the fans should abandon their support or lose all hope.

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05-07-2012, 05:19 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Mike Babcock won a cup.

Barry Trotz has won what?

Again, I'm not on the fire Trotz bandwagon, but I don't see why we shouldn't apply a little heat after this years disaster.
Disaster? It's not even over at this point. If we lose tonight, hell yes I'll be disappointed. But I'm not going to go out and call this season a "disaster"...especially with the way it began.

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Sometimes, you make a change and good things happen.
And sometimes when you make a change, it's an absolutely mindblowing failure. See: Tennessee Vols coaching woes since 2008.

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05-07-2012, 05:21 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by ILikeItILoveIt View Post
I love this Ricky Bobby view of the world: "If you're not first, you're last". Anything besides the Cup is a failure.

Given the choice between a major Cup run every 5 years or a consistent playoff team with a real shot but falling short, I take the latter.

That isn't settling, it's the reality of professional sports. We are fortunate to be still playing in May and have the excitement of tonight's game.

I know what it feels like to:

1) Have my team win it all
2) Have my team make the playoffs
3) Have my team be a consistent loser and rarely make the playoffs

Option 3 is the pits. Option 1 is the goal but it's fleeting. Option 2 is the consistent goal. Without it, you can never achieve Option 1.

And by the way, since we don't know for sure if we'd have won Game 4 with the Bad Boys, why is that move considered an offense worth firing him over. We may have scored a goal but gave up 2 more if they played D like they did in Game 2.

I suggest those ticked off at Trotz for not winning a Cup yet to adopt the BJs or the Wild or the Jets. Ask those teams if they could turn the clock back to 1998 and 2000 whether they would rather have the DP/Trotz duo running their franchise or the cast of Bozo's they've hired and fired since then.
A real shot. That's exactly it. This was that year and we're on the brink right now. If things turn around, great but if it doesn't, shouldn't we question where the team ended up?

I too have seen the ups and downs of a few organizations I root for. I think at some point, results come in to play. Unfortunately Trotz has won nothing of substance. He is a very good regular season coach that gets the most out of what he's given but his playoff record is abysmal. We can sit and wait and wonder if he's ever going to get there. We can make a change and hope it gets better. We can make a change and have it backfire.

I have been fine with Trotz the last few years because I saw progress. I thought the team was headed in the right direction. Is it still heading that way, I have no idea. Should he be here next year, probably. I think I'm just frustrated more than anything.

I'd like to see us come out tonight and kick the crap out of Phoenix and bring game 6 back to Nashville and roll the dice at that point. I hope that happens. It would impress the hell out of me that Trotz and the team were able to regain their focus. We will see what happens in a few hours.

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Old
05-07-2012, 05:21 PM
  #230
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Why is it considered "disloyal" to question the coaching staff or the management around here?

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05-07-2012, 05:28 PM
  #231
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I fail to understand the group of folks saying that Trotz has consistently failed, or not made progress, or whatever. They set out with a plan to be an expansion franchise for 5 years and build the team that way. So, I'm guessing we all agree that up to 02/03, we couldn't expect a ton but to be ready to have competitive teams. And guess what - we were. We started a pretty good run of PO teams - 7yrs outta' 8. First couple years, barely in, played way up against top seeds, never really in it. Next couple years, better teams, better seeds, and really, in 07, shoulda' advanced. Then the Liarpold disaster, and yet we got right back on the horse and got back to that level and won 2 first round series. Exactly where are we not improving, almost year-over-year?

Now, complaints about the players - like we don't have a 1st line center - not on the coach. complaints about not getting most of players - like maybe our sucky PP that ain't so sucky anymore - on the coach.

Trotz isn't just consistently getting us in the POs, nor just consistently getting more outta' players than it looks like he should on paper, he is getting us better and better results consistently, year-over-year, with the exception being a couple steps back after the Liarpold disaster. Unless you can sit there and honestly say "coach so-and-so" would do it better and Trotz shoulda', I just can't see how you can argue "fire Trotz".

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05-07-2012, 05:33 PM
  #232
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I'm amazed I find myself on the conservative side on this one (a true rarity), but Trotz stays. He consistenly gets us to the playoffs, where we have a chance to win the Cup, and we're slowly but surely going up.

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05-07-2012, 05:45 PM
  #233
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note: cups amount to the number won during streak of playoff appearances

new jersey devils 1996-2010 13 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 2 cups
detroit red wings 1990-current 21 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 4 cups
san jose sharks 2003-current 8 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 0 cups
pittsburgh penguins 2006-current 6 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 1 cup
boston bruins 07-current 5 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 1 cup
philadelphia flyers 07-current 5 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 0 cups
washington capitals 07-current 5 seasons straight making the playoffs .. 0 cups
chicago blackhawks 08-current 4 seasons staight making the playoffs .. 1 cup

anyone see anything weird about the above list? majority have went under a coaching change during their current playoff streak... detroit, pittsburgh, san jose, washington, new jersey did, chicago.. i believe almost every if not every team on this list has went through a coaching change during their streak... so its not crazy to talk about trotz being on the hot seat imo

we have made the playoffs 7 of the past 8 seasons... sounds good but look at the 7 teams just right there that have made the playoffs 5+ seasons in a row. we have literally squeaked in the playoffs 2-3 different times. we're lucky to be at 7 of 8. not to mention 7 of just the 8 i have listed have won cups or made significant runs or accomplished something of value. philly making the SCF against chicago. san jose winning division titles, presidents trophys, and WCF appearances. we have made it past the first round twice... the only team that comes close to so little accomplishments is washington but they at least have division titles to boot. there are also 9 other teams that have longer playoffs appearance streaks than our current one at 3 seasons

ottawa also had a playoff appearance streak at 11 seasons from 96 to 08
philly at 11 from 94-06
colorado at 11 from 94-06

im not sitting here saying what we have accomplished so far is nothing and im not thankful for the success we have had... but come on we arent in "elite" territory. we are mediocre to good. we are not great... we want great. sorry i feel that way....

maybe being a bama fan has spoiled me... we do have more titles than anyone in college football....


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05-07-2012, 05:49 PM
  #234
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We have the highest payroll in team history....and were 24th in the league. Those other teams listed are cap ceiling teams. The fact we even have a chance is remarkable. I agree Polie is the biggest reason why that happens, but Trotz certainly helps.

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05-07-2012, 05:56 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
We have the highest payroll in team history....and were 24th in the league. Those other teams listed are cap ceiling teams. The fact we even have a chance is remarkable. I agree Polie is the biggest reason why that happens, but Trotz certainly helps.
poile is a magician... he stretches every dollar. our roster is better than ~80% of cap ceiling teams. i could go back to 2005-2006.. and from there out, our rosters have been better than average. trotz has had good players and teams.

my point is this whole "making the playoffs", "giving us a chance", ect... is a crap reason to keep a coach. success is measured in the PLAYOFFS. we arent an expansion team anymore.. i want more and deserve more.

i believe its 1 of 2 problems...

A) trotz just cant get us over the hump
B) our leadership group are a bunch of losers (weber, suter, legwand, erat)

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05-07-2012, 05:57 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Why is it considered "disloyal" to question the coaching staff or the management around here?
Questioning them? Not a big deal.But in my mind thinking they should be fired is very risky and pointless because (I feel...I'm not necessarily right) to think a coaching change will make us any better or give us a shot at the Cup any more than we are/have now can't be justified. We would be the laughing stock of the league if we fired Trotz.

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05-07-2012, 06:06 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
16 teams out of 30 make the playoffs. Which means in the years you go out in the first round, you pretty much end up 8-16th. That's middle of the pack. That's mediocre.
In 04 and 08 I would say that's true. In 06 and 07 we did blow it in the playoffs. No way around that. In 2010 we lost the the Cup champions and we can thank Erat or that one for all intents and purposes. Last year no one will have any problem with. This year hasn't ended yet. But....only two teams I believe (us and Detroit) have made the playoffs 7 of the last 8 years, so with the resources we (don't) have I'd consider that pretty decent, and not necessarily mediocre. In terms of playoff runs we've been mediocre, but as a whole, I don't think so.



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And how long with that last when the ticket prices keep going up and up and up and people keep getting tired of finishing in the middle of the pack
Well by your logic we are usually middle of the pack and the team's popularity and attendance continues to soar. So it seems fine. Looking two years down the road right now is irrelevant because we have NO clue what things will be like between then and now.




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I'm not saying to tank, just that I think if we had to rebuild (and we will, eventually), folks can deal with it. Especially if we end up with one of those big time young guns we all want.
Spending more money after this season, which ownership has promised multiple times, is a much better way to go after a really good player than "rebuilding" through really high draft picks. We couldn't even be bad enough to get a top 3 pick if we tried. We're too good and too deep in the minors/front office.



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I'd take any one of those "consistently under-acheiveing teams " Stanley Cups over our happy to be in the second round seasons.
That's your opinion. I know a couple Ducks fans and they're miserable. I'm sure Carolina fans aren't exactly riding the wave of 2006 anymore either. Same with Tampa Bay in 2004.You can also add in the teams that lost those series to those teams. Calgary: terrible. Edmonton: 3 straight lottery wins. Still terrible. Ottawa: nothing special. I'll take us and our chances over their random playoff run any day.

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05-07-2012, 06:08 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Dude, seriously? The Cup is everyone's goal from the get go. As an expansion team there is a growth period. Then there are the expectations of making the playoffs. Then there's the expectation of winning a playoff series. And so on. Did I expect to win the Cup this year, no but did I expect more from this bunch to this point, absolutely. When a franchise goes all in and gives this sort of effort, something needs to be changed. We added pieces and took a risk and that's great but you have to put up or shut up. These guys aren't getting it done and to be honest, if I were Suter, I wouldn't come back for next season. Regardless of any of the other guys coming back, I could care less but the one piece that needs to be built on is probably not going to be here because the entire team did not do anything in this round. It's not going to leave a good taste in his mouth for sure and maybe Poile works his magic and re-signs Suter and Weber but if you were those guys, would you stay in this situation?
Yes I would if I were them. Then again, I'm used to operating in a team environment where a solid group trumps an individual every time.

How long has it taken you to reach your life goals, Glenn? Did you reach them all in 13 years? 20? 30? Have you reached them?

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05-07-2012, 06:10 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Why is it considered "disloyal" to question the coaching staff or the management around here?
There is a huge difference in questioning and repeatedly calling for heads. Let us put your job performance under the microscope the team is exposed to and see how long it is before we'd rip you apart.

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05-07-2012, 06:26 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeItILoveIt View Post
I suggest those ticked off at Trotz for not winning a Cup yet to adopt the BJsJackets or the Wild or the Jets. Ask those teams if they could turn the clock back to 1998 and 2000 whether they would rather have the DP/Trotz duo running their franchise or the cast of Bozo's they've hired and fired since then.
I've been trying to make this very point for some time now.

(Although we prefer to be called the Jackets up here. "BJs" is unnecessarily derogatory; it's like calling the Rangers the "Rags".)


I'd take the "Fire Trotz" debate a lot more seriously if it hadn't been a continuous refrain since... well, since I started following the NHL after the lockout.

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05-07-2012, 06:35 PM
  #241
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ive always heard talk around here about us being one of the "best" since the lockout in terms of success.. hmmm, lets have a look.

since the lockout (2005-current), there have been 7 opportunities to qualify for postseason play (that includes the current playoffs too)

teams that have made the playoffs 7 out of 7:
detroit red wings ( won a cup)
san jose sharks ( WCF appearances, titles)

teams that have made the playoffs 6 out of 7:
new jersey devils
new york rangers
philadelphia flyers (SCF appearance)
pittsburgh penguins ( won a cup)
nashville predators

teams that have made the playoffs 5 out of 7:
boston bruins ( won a cup)
montreal canadiens ( ECF appearance)
ottawa senators (SCF appearance)
washington capitals
vancouver canucks (SCF appearance)
anaheim ducks ( won a cup)

teams that have made the playoffs 4 out of 7:
buffalo sabres (presidents trophy)
chicago blackhawks ( won a cup)
calgary flames


teams that have made the playoffs 3 out of 7:
tampa bay lightning
dallas stars
los angeles kings
phoenix coyotes
colorado avalanche

teams that have made the playoffs 2 out of 7:
minnesota wild
carolina hurricanes
st louis blues

teams that have made the playoffs 1 out of 7:
new york islanders
columbus blue jackets
edmonton oilers
florida panthers
winnipeg jets

teams that have made the playoffs 0 out of 7:
toronto maple leafs (ouch)

13 of the 30 have made the playoffs at least 5 of the 7 seasons .. we have squeaked into the playoffs twice since the lockout so we're lucky to have made it 6 of 7 as are a couple of other teams.

also majority of teams that have made it 5+ seasons have actually accomplished something of value. we are the only team of the 13 not to have won a division title or made it at least to their respective's conference finals. maybe that could change if we make one hell of a comeback against the yotes..

just thought it would be nice for everyone to see where we are at in terms of success since the lockout... since that is when i think we all agree we became "legitimate"

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05-07-2012, 06:38 PM
  #242
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This series is the way it is because of bounces not going are way and people are blaming Trotz. Trotz went with the same lineup in game 4 because the guys in the lineup won game 3. He cannot shoot the puck for guys like Horny, Fisher, and Weber. He also does not make the decision to make bad passes or give up the puck everytime they have it on their stick like Legwand and SK.

You want something to complain about go to the Canucks, Blackhawks, Red Wings, Penguins, Blues pages. 10 times more talent than the Predators and they are out of the playoffs. Get Trotz some legit top line guys and i do not think anyone will have a darn thing to say negative about him. Until they do this i have to say he is doing a great job as a coach with what he has to work with.

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05-07-2012, 06:44 PM
  #243
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If we started as an expansion team in the Eastern conference we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't use that as a real excuse but I genuinely believe if we were in the east we would've had a SCF visit at the least to this point.

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05-07-2012, 06:44 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
ive always heard talk around here about us being one of the "best" since the lockout in terms of success.. hmmm, lets have a look.

since the lockout (2005-current), there have been 7 opportunities to qualify for postseason play (that includes the current playoffs too)

teams that have made the playoffs 7 out of 7:
detroit red wings ( won a cup)
san jose sharks ( WCF appearances, titles)

teams that have made the playoffs 6 out of 7:
new jersey devils
new york rangers
philadelphia flyers (SCF appearance)
pittsburgh penguins ( won a cup)
nashville predators

teams that have made the playoffs 5 out of 7:
boston bruins ( won a cup)
montreal canadiens ( ECF appearance)
ottawa senators (SCF appearance)
washington capitals
vancouver canucks (SCF appearance)
anaheim ducks ( won a cup)

teams that have made the playoffs 4 out of 7:
buffalo sabres (presidents trophy)
chicago blackhawks ( won a cup)
calgary flames


teams that have made the playoffs 3 out of 7:
tampa bay lightning
dallas stars
los angeles kings
phoenix coyotes
colorado avalanche

teams that have made the playoffs 2 out of 7:
minnesota wild
carolina hurricanes
st louis blues

teams that have made the playoffs 1 out of 7:
new york islanders
columbus blue jackets
edmonton oilers
florida panthers
winnipeg jets

teams that have made the playoffs 0 out of 7:
toronto maple leafs (ouch)

13 of the 30 have made the playoffs at least 5 of the 7 seasons .. we have squeaked into the playoffs twice since the lockout so we're lucky to have made it 6 of 7 as are a couple of other teams.

also majority of teams that have made it 5+ seasons have actually accomplished something of value. we are the only team of the 13 not to have won a division title or made it at least to their respective's conference finals. maybe that could change if we make one hell of a comeback against the yotes..

just thought it would be nice for everyone to see where we are at in terms of success since the lockout... since that is when i think we all agree we became "legitimate"
I'm eagerly awaiting the correlation of rosters to performance. I seem to have missed us having the Sedins, Kane/Sharp/Toews, Staal/Malkin/Crosby, etc. So ... how much of what success we have had is attributable to Trotz? How much is the players?

It's easy to rant against somebody doing a job that none of us here can do.

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05-07-2012, 06:45 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
This series is the way it is because of bounces not going are way and people are blaming Trotz. Trotz went with the same lineup in game 4 because the guys in the lineup won game 3. He cannot shoot the puck for guys like Horny, Fisher, and Weber. He also does not make the decision to make bad passes or give up the puck everytime they have it on their stick like Legwand and SK.

You want something to complain about go to the Canucks, Blackhawks, Red Wings, Penguins, Blues pages. 10 times more talent than the Predators and they are out of the playoffs. Get Trotz some legit top line guys and i do not think anyone will have a darn thing to say negative about him. Until they do this i have to say he is doing a great job as a coach with what he has to work with.
we definitely have a better roster than st louis and chicago. obviously detroit. vancouver probably not. pittsburgh has crosby and malkin (not fair). trotz has one hell of a roster right now. probably one of the best he will see if not the best imo.

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05-07-2012, 06:46 PM
  #246
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I will laugh so hard if we win three straight and suddenly all of this "we can't get past round 2!" stuff goes away....

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05-07-2012, 06:51 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I'm eagerly awaiting the correlation of rosters to performance. I seem to have missed us having the Sedins, Kane/Sharp/Toews, Staal/Malkin/Crosby, etc. So ... how much of what success we have had is attributable to Trotz? How much is the players?

It's easy to rant against somebody doing a job that none of us here can do.
trotz has more than just an average roster. my point is that everyone seems to say "well, trotz gives us a chance. he gets us to the playoffs every year" ..

13 of 30 nhl teams have made the playoffs since the lockout 5+ times .. 12 of 13 have division titles to their name or conference finals appearances.. we have.... 2 second round appearances.

now i still think we have had great success since the lockout. but we're nothing more than decent.. a little better than average.

trotz has definitely gotten more out of certain rosters. but he has also gotten less out of certain rosters (06,07,12) .. its not out of the question to challenge trotz's position.

those who disagree are either content on what we have accomplished out of fear of change that made lead to the team leaving (missing the playoffs consecutive years) or just straight up love trotz (probable for alot lol)

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05-07-2012, 06:53 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
I will laugh so hard if we win three straight and suddenly all of this "we can't get past round 2!" stuff goes away....
id love every minute of feeling like a complete and utter fool....

and ive said it multiple times already... we still have a shot. that whole rads/ak situation really screwed us imo..

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05-07-2012, 06:58 PM
  #249
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David Poile needs to be fired...

Barry Trotz is the best coach in hockey history, but the Preds always have a vastly inferior roster to the other 29 teams. Poile has to go!

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05-07-2012, 07:03 PM
  #250
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
If we started as an expansion team in the Eastern conference we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't use that as a real excuse but I genuinely believe if we were in the east we would've had a SCF visit at the least to this point.
This used to be a favorite argument w/r/t how many times the Jackets would have made the playoffs by now as well. Not used to seeing it here.

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