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Old
05-05-2012, 10:04 PM
  #101
Mathieu Lavergne
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I meant Kaberle will be there since he has a one-way contract and is still good enough to play on the team. That's why I'm saying he's a lock. I am analyzing the current roster and what the top-6 will look like if things goes unchanged in that sentence. In no way shape or form I am saying he is untradable because of his contract. Gorges, Markov, Subban and Emelin are all tradeable too but you didn't make a tirade for them like you did for my kaberle comments. So I guess nobody's a lock for next year's team since everybody could be traded at some point this summer from your standpoint, I get it.

It's sad you took the comment out of context and bolded a few words than started with a sarcastic reply but hey more power to you.


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05-05-2012, 10:24 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu Lavergne View Post
I meant Kaberle will be there since he has a one-way contract and is still good enough to play on the team. That's why I'm saying he's a lock. I am analyzing the current roster and what the top-6 will look like if things goes unchanged in that sentence. In no way shape or form I am saying he is untradable because of his contract. Gorges, Markov, Subban and Emelin are all tradeable too but you didn't make a tirade for them like you did for my kaberle comments. So I guess nobody's a lock for next year's team since everybody could be traded at some point this summer from your standpoint, I get it.

It's sad you took the comment out of context and bolded a few words than started with a sarcastic reply but hey more power to you.
Suuuuuure.

Next time, why not just say, he's a lock because he's got a one-way contract. Instead of being all prancy and prissy, why don't you realize that the way you said it can very easily be confused for the exact thing I responded about, it could also be easily assumed that you are now trying to save face.

And by all accounts, Emelin is almost in the same situation, given his 'go back to Russia clause', which would be more fitting with the "because of his contract" that you used.

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05-05-2012, 10:57 PM
  #103
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We're stuck with this guy. This was a panic move by gauthier that ended up backfiring.

I was more comfortable with spacek's expiring contract, than taking on kaberle's contract for a playoff push.

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05-05-2012, 11:06 PM
  #104
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We're stuck with this guy. This was a panic move by gauthier that ended up backfiring.

I was more comfortable with spacek's expiring contract, than taking on kaberle's contract for a playoff push.
I may be too cynical, but I see it a a 'save my job' move rather than one for a play off push.

IMO Gauthier was not a horrible GM, but he was certainly a most unlikeable man.

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05-05-2012, 11:17 PM
  #105
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I may be too cynical, but I see it a a 'save my job' move rather than one for a play off push.

IMO Gauthier was not a horrible GM, but he was certainly a most unlikeable man.
That's why I termed it a panic move. He was probably feeling heat from upper management because this felt like a desperate attempt to fix the PP and make some strides in the standings.

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05-06-2012, 12:21 AM
  #106
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TBH as long as Kabby works out hard this offseason, he may end up being a useful player for us next year.

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05-06-2012, 12:22 AM
  #107
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We have Tomas Kaberle

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05-06-2012, 01:15 AM
  #108
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The key with kaberle is to make him tradable... I would pair him Georges all year long and hpe someone takes the bait by the trade deadline. It would be hard to do the same with Gomez, but a 30-40pts Dmen... It should not be that hard.

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05-07-2012, 08:59 PM
  #109
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If we could trade kaberle for a 4th line player, will we do it?

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05-07-2012, 09:09 PM
  #110
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If we could trade kaberle for a 4th line player, will we do it?
Of course......get rid of this type of player.

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05-07-2012, 09:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
If we could trade kaberle for a 4th line player, will we do it?
I would.

Kaberle for anyone just to get him off of the books. A 5th rounder sounds good right now.

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05-07-2012, 09:34 PM
  #112
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Yup. Kaberle for nothing seems like a solid deal. At least the nothing isn't being paid 5 million per.

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05-07-2012, 11:06 PM
  #113
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I don't think its so much that kabs is bad and more that we aren't using him right. Partially because we are already soft on defense so it shows it even more.
I don't know about that... Kaberle was 6th in ES TOI for the year (13:49), while leading the group in PP TOI (3:47).

I don't know that you can "better" deploy a 4.25M$ dman. I suppose you could cut his ES time even more, but considering the alternatives the team had this year you can't totally blame RC for hoping to get more out of the veteran.

Bergevin could go out and try to find a stud defensive dman to pair with Kaberle & hope that giving him a defensive zone "babysitter" allows the new coach to use him more, but much better to simply remove him from the group and spend that money elsewhere.

Kaberle would be "hidden" better on a team with a rugged defense group, but even then (as with the B's last year), he'd still end up in a similar situation... used minimally at ES, not at all in PK, and a ton on the PP.

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05-08-2012, 12:42 AM
  #114
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I believe I am in the minority, who is stoked to have Kaberle here.

Looking at our Defence last season without Kaberle... we were horrendous in the points department (we were right at the bottom) His inclusion at least made us respectable, and Subban started producing better right around that same time.

Having offensive options is a good thing to have in today's NHL. We truly have a team with a lot of potential for improvement, so long as it gets tapped properly...

Next year, a healthy Markov, Kaberle, and Subban will provide pretty decent numbers offensively. They would hover around the 100 assist mark, and all would be a a different type of threat offensively, which increases our odds of NOT being shut down IMO.
Having edges such as this on the line up is what is going to turn us around.
With these 3 guys, IMO the other 3 have to be defensive minded d-men.
Currently, we have Gorges & Emelin.

Campoli IMO isnt the right fit here, and is UFA anyhow, I believe the same sentiment as many, and think we should get another good physical d-man, who puts defence first.

Guys available this summer I'd like to see are;
Sheldon Brookbank ANA
Bryan Allen CAR
Shane O'Brien COL
Sheldon Souray DAL
Brad Stuart DET
Jay Garrison FLA (though, IMO he may be overpriced this summer)
Clayton Stoner MIN
R Suter NAS
Pavel Kubina PHI
B. Jackman STL
C White SJS
A Rome VAN
D Widemann WAS

Honestly, if we filled out our top 6 with any one of these guys in one spot. I think we'd be just fine this coming season from the POV of our Defence.

Diaz and Weber, Either one would be suitable for the 7th guy, Personally I like Weber, because of his age. In 3 years time I believe he does have the potential to eclipse and surpass what Diaz does today.

What is really going to help us going forward as well is the amount of defensive prospects heading in to their beginnings as a pro.
Beaulieau, Ellis, Tinordi, Pateryn in combination to some of the guys sticking around as the vets they can rely upon... Hamilton should receive a big boost next year, giving us more ample selection to choose from, as they are finally available to use.

I believe we have a good mix of d-men...
Subban's physical brand of hard playing offence, Markov's quarterbacking, and Kaberle's patience is going to work out well for us IMO...
Esp paired with
Gorges Stay at home shotblocking
Emelin's physical style,
and one of those UFA guys defensive game, with size.

a talented d-man as the # 7 guy in Diaz/Weber.

So we'd have a solid line up of offence and defence. One that can protect the net, and jump on the rush when they see the break.

When the Lightning won the cup on the puck movements of Sydor & Boyle... I liked how that system worked to make the rushes happen. I believe we are close to emulating that defensive formula here, WITH the inclusion of Kaberle.

I'll be the first to say I could be wrong... But I like the thought of it at least A quick transitioning defence, that gets the puck to it's wingers quickly. making for a higher amount of fast breaks (3-2, 2-1, d jumping in...)

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05-08-2012, 01:03 AM
  #115
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Yeah, let's repeat the old habit of selling low instead of giving him quality minutes and try to increase his value. Last season was a write-off, where this on is heading is still up in the air. I doubt the new management dump Kaberle for anything, paired with the right partner and on pace for 40-50 pts he is tradeable come deadline time.

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05-08-2012, 03:14 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
If we could trade kaberle for a 4th line player, will we do it?
Sign me up. Although bear in mind that it oughtn't be a total albatross "4th line player"... as in, Scott Gomez may meet some definitions of "4th line player", just as Kaberle himself is now a "bottom pairing defenseman". If it's a hard-working cheap decent $700k plugger forward who fits a "standard definition", fine. But I reserve the right to examine the fine print on any specific "4th line player" named.

I'll also take the 5th round draft pick or generic prospect.

Bottom line being that I really don't believe in Kaberle anymore. Liked him lots in his day, but just haven't seen him look good enough in recent seasons to think that I couldn't spend his cap hit on a more effective player. It's always a gamble, but if I could cash in his payroll chips for the opportunity to just *try* and spend them better elsewhere, I'd take that chance.

But I won't "blame" our GM if he doesn't take the chance. Kaberle isn't totally hideous yet, and non-hideous defensemen are usually marketable, especially as time and money come off their contracts, and always moreso mid-season than in the off-season.

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05-08-2012, 03:16 PM
  #117
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I kind of like Kaberle. He definitely is solid on the PP. I wish the Habs could build a solid veteran d-corps. Good teams are often able to take players like Kaberle and turn them into useful vets. I hope the habs get Brad Stuart or Aaron Rome or Sulzer or some somewhat bigger d-guy and pair them with Kabs and create a solid d-corps.

Of course, that might be wishful thinking there.

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05-08-2012, 03:27 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
I believe I am in the minority, who is stoked to have Kaberle here.

Looking at our Defence last season without Kaberle... we were horrendous in the points department (we were right at the bottom) His inclusion at least made us respectable, and Subban started producing better right around that same time.

Having offensive options is a good thing to have in today's NHL. We truly have a team with a lot of potential for improvement, so long as it gets tapped properly...

Next year, a healthy Markov, Kaberle, and Subban will provide pretty decent numbers offensively. They would hover around the 100 assist mark, and all would be a a different type of threat offensively, which increases our odds of NOT being shut down IMO.
Having edges such as this on the line up is what is going to turn us around.
With these 3 guys, IMO the other 3 have to be defensive minded d-men.
Currently, we have Gorges & Emelin.

Campoli IMO isnt the right fit here, and is UFA anyhow, I believe the same sentiment as many, and think we should get another good physical d-man, who puts defence first.

Guys available this summer I'd like to see are;
Sheldon Brookbank ANA
Bryan Allen CAR
Shane O'Brien COL
Sheldon Souray DAL
Brad Stuart DET
Jay Garrison FLA (though, IMO he may be overpriced this summer)
Clayton Stoner MIN
R Suter NAS
Pavel Kubina PHI
B. Jackman STL
C White SJS
A Rome VAN
D Widemann WAS

Honestly, if we filled out our top 6 with any one of these guys in one spot. I think we'd be just fine this coming season from the POV of our Defence.

Diaz and Weber, Either one would be suitable for the 7th guy, Personally I like Weber, because of his age. In 3 years time I believe he does have the potential to eclipse and surpass what Diaz does today.

What is really going to help us going forward as well is the amount of defensive prospects heading in to their beginnings as a pro.
Beaulieau, Ellis, Tinordi, Pateryn in combination to some of the guys sticking around as the vets they can rely upon... Hamilton should receive a big boost next year, giving us more ample selection to choose from, as they are finally available to use.

I believe we have a good mix of d-men...
Subban's physical brand of hard playing offence, Markov's quarterbacking, and Kaberle's patience is going to work out well for us IMO...
Esp paired with
Gorges Stay at home shotblocking
Emelin's physical style,
and one of those UFA guys defensive game, with size.

a talented d-man as the # 7 guy in Diaz/Weber.

So we'd have a solid line up of offence and defence. One that can protect the net, and jump on the rush when they see the break.

When the Lightning won the cup on the puck movements of Sydor & Boyle... I liked how that system worked to make the rushes happen. I believe we are close to emulating that defensive formula here, WITH the inclusion of Kaberle.

I'll be the first to say I could be wrong... But I like the thought of it at least A quick transitioning defence, that gets the puck to it's wingers quickly. making for a higher amount of fast breaks (3-2, 2-1, d jumping in...)
This

Also I would target the bolded players.

Markov-Gorges
Jackman/Allen/Garrison-Subban
Kaberle-Emelin
Daiz/Weber

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05-08-2012, 04:04 PM
  #119
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Trading Kaberle for a pick or prospect...or just dumping him for nothing makes no sense unless we have somebody coming in who can play 18-20 minutes and can take the ice time and maybe be a better fit for what we need(stay at home d-man who brings an edge and has some size).

I find it comical that some posters love to crap on Gainey and Gauther for "giving players away" and having them succeed elswhere and us getting nothing for them, yet that's what I keep hearing about Kaberle. You want the new GM to do like the old GM's for which you hate them for it...brilliant!

I can see dumping Gomez on waivers, but the odds of him playing to his contract are slim to none.

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05-08-2012, 04:21 PM
  #120
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Kaberle will play well for the Habs next year...and if Markov is healthy come January 1st they will look to move him. And it will be for a decent return.

I'm guessing a 2nd round pick and a decent prospect.

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05-08-2012, 07:46 PM
  #121
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Trading Kaberle for a pick or prospect...or just dumping him for nothing makes no sense unless we have somebody coming in who can play 18-20 minutes and can take the ice time and maybe be a better fit for what we need(stay at home d-man who brings an edge and has some size).

I find it comical that some posters love to crap on Gainey and Gauther for "giving players away" and having them succeed elswhere and us getting nothing for them, yet that's what I keep hearing about Kaberle. You want the new GM to do like the old GM's for which you hate them for it...brilliant!

I can see dumping Gomez on waivers, but the odds of him playing to his contract are slim to none.
perhaps some people view Kaberle the same way you view gomez?


i do agree that, as an asset, you want to get as much value back for Kaberle as you can...

but the reality is that the best the Canes could get for him, mid-season, was SpaceGoat, and they did shop him aggressively.

yes, he put up points last year, but any hockey observer who goes beyond stat lines will see the same thing Chiarelli, Rutherford, Julien, Maurice and Cunneyworth saw... a dman useful on the PP, but otherwise who needs to have his minutes kept to a minimum.

2 years 4.25M$cap hit likely make him very hard to move this summer.

if we keep him (hoping to get more later), it means forcing the new coach to insert him in the lineup.

Yes, we could continue using him the way RC did, 6th dman in terms of ES ice time, and loads of PP time, but with a healthy Markov, there will be fewer minutes to go around next season.

and really, does playing him that way increase his value, or expose potential buyers to even more game tape of him struggling immensely in the defensive zone?


I'd be more likely to believe that his value will be at it's highest point right about now... sure, at the deadline teams do crazy things, but keeping him that long means playing that long, which exposes both the risk of him going the Gomez/Finger route (being virtually untraceable) and the risk of injury.


Market him aggressively all summer, move him for the best return out there, and move on.



and I don't think the comparison to the Gainey/Gauthier asset blunders is at all apt... Unfortunately for us, the only overpaid veteran they unloaded during their tenure was Spacek, and that for Kaberle
The rest were moves involving young players traded after public issues, and apparently often without making them available league wide to drum up the best possible return.

there is a huge difference btw moving a 30+ year old declining player and moving prospects in their early 20's who haven't yet been given a real shot and/or have only been sparsely used.

Putting Kaberle on the block, much like the Canes did, will get some nibbles, maybe even slightly better than the Canes did since Kaberle did put up those pts this year, and RC avoided the temptation of benching him (though one wonders why he got so many games "off" after the birth of his kid).

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05-08-2012, 07:47 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Kaberle will play well for the Habs next year...and if Markov is healthy come January 1st they will look to move him. And it will be for a decent return.

I'm guessing a 2nd round pick and a decent prospect.
if he does play well for us, why would we move him?

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05-08-2012, 07:57 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if he does play well for us, why would we move him?
And if we're out of the playoffs and moving him to a buyer, we'll get a lot more than that package for him.

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05-09-2012, 09:00 AM
  #124
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And if we're out of the playoffs and moving him to a buyer, we'll get a lot more than that package for him.
Maybe, but I think that factor has to be very far down the list of reasons to keep him. The first priority has to be icing a winning lineup. Maybe it needs to be such a high priority that it precludes all other considerations? If I could use Kaberle's payroll space on a better defenseman than Kaberle (or at least, a better fit to our team needs), then I would want to do that right now, and never mind any consideration of what Kaberle *might* fetch at the trade deadline *if* we're sellers. The team shouldn't be thinking of selling, at all. The goal should be to construct the best 23-player roster we can, full stop.

But who knows if anybody out there would take Kaberle or not. Supposedly the Canes couldn't give him away for free, but instead took what they found as the best "negative value" return they could get in the counter-dump of Spacek. I hope we're not as unlucky as they were... I wouldn't yet take "negative value" back for Kaberle, but I would settle for zero value. During the window from now until all the top-4 UFA defenseman are off the market (or have turned us down).

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05-09-2012, 09:46 AM
  #125
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Maybe, but I think that factor has to be very far down the list of reasons to keep him. The first priority has to be icing a winning lineup. Maybe it needs to be such a high priority that it precludes all other considerations? If I could use Kaberle's payroll space on a better defenseman than Kaberle (or at least, a better fit to our team needs), then I would want to do that right now, and never mind any consideration of what Kaberle *might* fetch at the trade deadline *if* we're sellers. The team shouldn't be thinking of selling, at all. The goal should be to construct the best 23-player roster we can, full stop.

But who knows if anybody out there would take Kaberle or not. Supposedly the Canes couldn't give him away for free, but instead took what they found as the best "negative value" return they could get in the counter-dump of Spacek. I hope we're not as unlucky as they were... I wouldn't yet take "negative value" back for Kaberle, but I would settle for zero value. During the window from now until all the top-4 UFA defenseman are off the market (or have turned us down).
Before just "dumping him" for small or no return, I'd be sure I can sign an upgrade on defense. I would prefer that slot and cap hit would be for a Jackman or salvador or whatever but if we can't get anybody decent then better off keeping him.

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