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NJ/Philly - What is NJ doing that we didn't do

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Old
05-07-2012, 01:21 PM
  #51
Le Magnifique 66
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Marty is making the saves when he needs to make them, Fleury didn't do that for us

Disciple the Devils are being aggressive but smart about it

great fore checking

Using their speed against that horrible Philly defense

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Old
05-07-2012, 01:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
Marty is making the saves when he needs to make them, Fleury didn't do that for us

Disciple the Devils are being aggressive but smart about it

great fore checking

Using their speed against that horrible Philly defense
I'll agree with this to a point, but I'm kind of glad because this time Fleury's play didn't cover up how bad our system is. We need to change our system, tighter checking, which means WE LACK SIZE!!! And Bylsma needs to learn to adapt IN GAME, sometimes things just don't bounce your way and adjustment need to be made. Those adjustment shouldn't just be "OH my god, put Sid and Geno together. Its still not working, Oh GOD!! Put Staal, Sid, and Geno together then. And put 2 forwards on defense too!! The other team will never see us coming!!" quote from the bible of Bylsma

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05-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
It's an interesting point, but i think playing disciplined, anticipating well and having the type of work ethic that allows the players to get to the loose pucks quicker than the Flyers can has just as much to do with their success. The Devs are playing so fast right now, and so much of that has to do with playing on their toes, reading the play correctly and just reacting, playing full speed with no reservations. That intelligence and work ethic was just absent from the Pens in the first series.
Well, it's not just weight. It's reach as well to go with underrated skating ability and commitment. They are active in passing lanes and are creating havoc in the corners with their sticks. Other than Coburn, there isn't a Flyers defenseman bigger than these guys. It takes a toll on the opposition, especially psychologically. 2 years ago, the devils were predominantly a top six forward team with not alot of size. Alot has changed in 2 years, in that they don't have to rely on the top 6 as much.

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Old
05-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
This has never happened except when a coach lost control of the team, correct? It's a convenient excuse. Every time we played the system correctly the past two years, we looked great. And when we weren't playing it correctly in the playoffs, and a lot of guys were unfocused, we looked like ****. So apparently, this happened because he lost control of the team. How did that happen exactly? Do u believe they looked at the evidence over the past two years and actually made the conscious choice that they weren't gonna play the right way because they had a better way? Or was it just the case that the coaching staff was fine, the system was fine, but a select group of players weren't playing up to their usual standard?

If you want to blame the coach for players not playing the way they are capable, and previously have always shown that they can play, then explain to me exactly how to combat it. Like Ray Shero said in his interview with NHL Live, at some point the players have to go out on the ice and execute. Sometimes some of the players just have to stand up and say, "I played like ****. It's not the coach's fault i ran out of position to chase a guy who was already being defended and left my man all alone 4 feet from the net. It's mine."
I think he lost control of the team, but based on your posts, it seems you don't even believe in the concept of "control of the team." All the can do is install the system and instruct the players how to play. How well or how poorly they execute it is not on him, seems to be your take.

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05-07-2012, 01:53 PM
  #55
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Did anyone else notice how in game 4 we always had an F3 hanging back in the offensive zone and we destroyed them off their mistakes. Then in game 5 we did it at times just enough to win. But in the games we lost it seemed like we had all 3 forwards on the bottom half of the circles in their zone. Or is that just crazy talk?

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05-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #56
DoctrSteveBrule
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
1+1 will always = 2
I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to put it!
if we're gonna put this in math terms you're committing a howler. AKA obtaining the correct answer by using incorrect reasoning. The penguins lost in the playoffs, that is correct, however that does not mean that everything was going according to plan and our plan was designed poorly. Forward thinking just means dictating the play and always trying to put the puck up ice as quickly as possible. Every team in the league abides by that philosophy. It does not mean not playing defense.

Here I'll use on of your techniques, did you watch the end of the 2010-2011 season at all? We were winning every game 2-1 or 3-2 down the stretch? Was that because we weren't playing defense.


A lot of things went horribly wrong these playoffs. Stop trying to pin it all on one thing. It was the perfect storm of failure.

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Old
05-07-2012, 01:58 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
if we're gonna put this in math terms you're committing a howler. AKA obtaining the correct answer by using incorrect reasoning. The penguins lost in the playoffs, that is correct, however that does not mean that everything was going according to plan and our plan was designed poorly. Forward thinking just means dictating the play and always trying to put the puck up ice as quickly as possible. Every team in the league abides by that philosophy. It does not mean not playing defense.

Here I'll use on of your techniques, did you watch the end of the 2010-2011 season at all? We were winning every game 2-1 or 3-2 down the stretch? Was that because we weren't playing defense.


A lot of things went horribly wrong these playoffs. Stop trying to pin it all on one thing. It was the perfect storm of failure.
I'm not pinning solely on one thing. I'm just not excluding Bylsma or giving him a free pass this time like some others. Crosby and to a sense Malkin get the free pass from me. Fleury, our defense as a whole, and our coaching staff take the brunt of this one. I thought we played just fine offensively. We ran around like chickens with our heads cut off in our own zone.

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05-07-2012, 02:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Cspeirs87 View Post
Did anyone else notice how in game 4 we always had an F3 hanging back in the offensive zone and we destroyed them off their mistakes. Then in game 5 we did it at times just enough to win. But in the games we lost it seemed like we had all 3 forwards on the bottom half of the circles in their zone. Or is that just crazy talk?
No, that's exactly right. The Devils always have that F3 forward in the right spot too. Ask Disco Dan why he doesn't implement that into his system.

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05-07-2012, 02:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
I'm not pinning solely on one thing. I'm just not excluding Bylsma or giving him a free pass this time like some others. Crosby and to a sense Malkin get the free pass from me. Fleury, our defense as a whole, and our coaching staff take the brunt of this one. I thought we played just fine offensively. We ran around like chickens with our heads cut off in our own zone.
looks like thats exactly what you are doing. Need I remind you?

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I feel it is Bylsma who needs to figure things out. This team plays to whatever style the opposing team wishes to play. We won the cup in 09 because we could play any style. Pittsburgh never dictates the type of game and that falls on the COACHING!!!
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Man, this happens because of bad coaching and the inability to adapt.

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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
I'm sorry but you're just way off. Bylsma told the players to think FORWARD, sleep FORWARD, eat FORWARD, specifically right before the playoffs. The players WERE playing his system and playing it the way Bylsma wanted it played. We needed to stay back and look for turnovers and odd man rushes.


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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
Bylsma wanted a forward thinking team, and the players played exactly the way he asked. Did you watch any of the games, if anything the players were trying too hard? They were overthinking the game, and letting the little things go? That comes back to coaching and preperation. The offense was fine with the amount of goals we scored but our defensive system was terrible. And that my SON is coaching. Stop making yourself look ridiculous, and stop arguing a point you lost long LONG ago.

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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
The players did exactly what Bylsma asked of them. Played a forward game with no responsibility in behind and in front of their own net. When it came out that Bylsma told them this it was the beginning of the end for this years playoff run. I don't want Bylsma fired at all, he's still a relatively new coach who has LOT's to learn yet. And he get's outcoached all of the time, regular season and playoffs. If you can't admit that then take off the goggles boys.

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Old
05-07-2012, 02:08 PM
  #60
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[QUOTE=Uncle Jorgi;49381023]Despite all the whiners on here that want to blame the coaching staff for everything because the truth is just to messy for them to wrap their heads around intellectually, the truth is the Devils are playing exactly the way the Pens want to play. Like MTLPensfan says in the second post, they are doing everything right within their system, playing disciplined and putting the team and the system first. The Pens had too many players going outside the system to try to make a play, too many players making incorrect reads, too many players giving weak efforts. And we got awful goaltending to boot (though that was somewhat of a wash, considering the goalies on both teams were terrible).

I was responding to this quote initially, and we were conversing about the COACHING. Sorry, I didn't know you changed the topic.

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Old
05-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #61
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If you want my opinion on what the players, goaltenders did wrong? Maybe ask?
We were talking specifically about COACHING!! Was it or wasn't it?

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05-07-2012, 02:11 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hockey Canada View Post
If you want my opinion on what the players, goaltenders did wrong? Maybe ask?
no one asked for your opinion on how bad Bylsma was originally... Great defense though. Really convincing.

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05-07-2012, 02:12 PM
  #63
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looks like thats exactly what you are doing. Need I remind you?
I was also talking specifically to Jorgi. Why are you taking those points like I was speaking to you? I wouldn't have responded that way to your points. Basically, I wasn't talking to You

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Old
05-07-2012, 07:28 PM
  #64
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Not giving up 8 goals per game.
Beat me to it. NJ is making us looking really stupid at this point because Marty hasn't had to stand on his head to win these games. Their defense is doing what ours couldn't: limit quality chances against / keeping the game close. Switch defenses we probably would've swept them given that our offense player pretty well.

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05-07-2012, 07:49 PM
  #65
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No long passes. Philly's been eating that garbage up for 2 years.

Also look at the NJ structure all over the ice. It does't take away from Kovy and Parise's creativity it just gives them options.

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05-07-2012, 08:15 PM
  #66
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It's called defense.

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05-07-2012, 08:42 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Doing what we did to win the Cup.

Aggressive forecheck
Responsible F3 covering for pinching D
Grinding *****es down
Tough, smart defense
Great PK
Two other things they're doing . . .

1. They're jumping the Flyer coming with speed who's in the process of taking a drop/back pass. Totally kills their breakout when they manage to get out of their zone clean . . .

2. Lot of cases where there's an outlet to a winger at center ice near the boards and he catches a center/winger coming up ice with speed, and that pushes the Flyers back/creates odd man rushes. Amazing to think that a team with decent centers would have the audacity to do something that Dan Bylsma would not (really, it's what we used to do in 2009, where you'd have, for example, Guerin and Dupuis one touch an outlet to Sid as he was busting up ice with speed . . . oh well, I guess that's not as good as a stretch pass to a winger who chips on the puck and makes Sid chase it deep).

Really, what you've got is a case where the Devils game planned for the series, where they're both aggressive and sometimes unpredictable on the forecheck, and where they run multiple breakouts.

O'k, I'll get **** on for writing this, but I don't see how anyone can watch this (or other series) and NOT see Bylsma as part of the playoff problem.

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No long passes. Philly's been eating that garbage up for 2 years.

Also look at the NJ structure all over the ice. It does't take away from Kovy and Parise's creativity it just gives them options.
What a fascinating concept . . . so, you put your best players into the best possible position to make plays and then you reap the rewards when they do just that. Hmmm . . .

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Old
05-07-2012, 08:56 PM
  #68
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It's really simple.

They played offense as their defensive system, DB's own admission.

Playoffs is all about the defense and they ignored it completely. They decided to change up something in game 4. Game 4!

Why not after you lose in game 2 or 3?

It was an issue well before the playoffs arrived. Winning masked a lot of imperfections on defense and again relied on offense as their savior.

Zone defense should be outlawed.


In the end play defense.

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Old
05-07-2012, 09:16 PM
  #69
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What is NJ doing that the Pittsburgh couldn't.
Not letting up 10 chances a game where someone is left uncovered 2 feet in front of the goal crease

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05-07-2012, 09:32 PM
  #70
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- Playing defense
- Good goaltending
- Aggressive to the puck
- Getting under Giroux's skin

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05-07-2012, 10:31 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
I think he lost control of the team, but based on your posts, it seems you don't even believe in the concept of "control of the team." All the can do is install the system and instruct the players how to play. How well or how poorly they execute it is not on him, seems to be your take.
On the contrary, i'm simply against assuming the coach lost control of the team based on one series, where they were beaten by a team that had practically the same record and had played them well the entire year. Again, just because some of your regulars slump at the wrong time (a couple of which had been struggling the majority of the year), it doesn't mean necessarily that the system or the coaching is to blame. It is possible for players to just play poorly on their own dime, without it automatically having to be everyone else's fault.

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05-07-2012, 10:47 PM
  #72
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I don't think you can overlook the fact that the Devils are playing a team that was built to beat the Penguins and who's sole focus for the past two or three years has been to beat the Penguins. I can't help but think the Flyer's blew their load a little bit in the Pens series and maybe got a little too high. Not taking anything away from the Devils though. They are playing better than the Pens but the Flyers sat in the 5th spot for the final month w/o much chance of moving out of it. Their coach probably started game planning for us a month before the playoffs started. We, on the other hand, were maybe too focused on trying to take first place. I liked the idea at the time but maybe in retrospect it might have been better to use that final month to rest some guys (mainly Letang and Fluery) and maybe not have focused so much on playing every game like a playoff game. Although I'm sure if we would have done that and lost then I'd be saying that was a mistake so I don't think Bylsma could have won in that regard.

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05-07-2012, 10:51 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahodac View Post
- Playing defense
- Good goaltending
- Aggressive to the puck
- Getting under Giroux's skin
Not just Giroux, every Flyer They are kicking doors , break sticks, screaming. We have done a great job of staying out of fights. Let Philly do what they want, we will take the PP and score. If Philly cant defend with 5 players, lord knows how they will defend with 4

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05-07-2012, 11:03 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
What is NJ doing that the Pittsburgh couldn't.
  • The goaltender is giving his team a chance to win.
  • The defense is actually playing their man and their position well.
  • The team is actually believing in the coach's system and it hasn't fallen apart...completely.
  • The stars that aren't scoring aren't doing stupid stuff to hurt their team.
  • The coach is getting the most of out his cast which lacks talented depth.
  • The Devils players have found a way to get under the Flyers players skin and keep them in check.

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05-07-2012, 11:05 PM
  #75
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I don't think you can overlook the fact that the Devils are playing a team that was built to beat the Penguins and who's sole focus for the past two or three years has been to beat the Penguins. I can't help but think the Flyer's blew their load a little bit in the Pens series and maybe got a little too high. Not taking anything away from the Devils though. They are playing better than the Pens but the Flyers sat in the 5th spot for the final month w/o much chance of moving out of it. Their coach probably started game planning for us a month before the playoffs started. We, on the other hand, were maybe too focused on trying to take first place. I liked the idea at the time but maybe in retrospect it might have been better to use that final month to rest some guys (mainly Letang and Fluery) and maybe not have focused so much on playing every game like a playoff game. Although I'm sure if we would have done that and lost then I'd be saying that was a mistake so I don't think Bylsma could have won in that regard.
That Pens series did tons of damage to the Flyers system, it basically let them fall apart and win by just out scoring the other team...then the next team they face is a team that is organized and execute their system to a T.

I expected this type of result. Sort of, I thought they Flyers would bow out in 6, not 5.

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