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Old
05-07-2012, 10:47 PM
  #76
Letang fan 58
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Putting Philly to sleep and not allowing an emotional series. The end.

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05-08-2012, 01:43 AM
  #77
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Having studied game tape of Philly without afterwards going "nah, **** it"?

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05-08-2012, 07:51 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
On the contrary, i'm simply against assuming the coach lost control of the team based on one series, where they were beaten by a team that had practically the same record and had played them well the entire year. Again, just because some of your regulars slump at the wrong time (a couple of which had been struggling the majority of the year), it doesn't mean necessarily that the system or the coaching is to blame. It is possible for players to just play poorly on their own dime, without it automatically having to be everyone else's fault.
It's not like I'm assuming it based on nothing, jumping to an irrational conclusion. I'm looking at the fact that they gave up a historic amount of goals, due to a team-wide collapse in defensive play. From Crosby and Malkin, on down to Martin, Lovejoy and Engelland. I'm looking at the epic meltdown in Game 3 which showed a shocking lack of discipline and totally out of control emotions. The cheap, selfish penalties taken throughout the series. That's all decently strong evidence of an out of control team.

I can't believe that you watched that series and all you saw was "some guys going into a slump at the wrong time."

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05-08-2012, 08:23 AM
  #79
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Killing penalties?

No need to break down what the Devils are doing systematically, to be honest. If the Pens had just had an avg, as opposed to historically atrocious PK, they win the series easily.

People can compare this and that, but it was a total lack of discipline all over the ice that did them in.

I never could muster up much hate for the Devils all of these years, so it is fun to see them turning Giroux into everything Flyer fans "hate" about Crosby...

I love seeing the same posters who talked **** on Crosby defend Giroux's antics... The whining, the diving, the dirty play... He is just playing with passion you know? The hypocrisy is comical.... Even Richards wasn't this bad.

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Old
05-08-2012, 08:36 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by HappyHuman View Post
Not letting up 10 chances a game where someone is left uncovered 2 feet in front of the goal crease
I'm gonna go with this too

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05-08-2012, 09:02 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Two other things they're doing . . .

1. They're jumping the Flyer coming with speed who's in the process of taking a drop/back pass. Totally kills their breakout when they manage to get out of their zone clean . . .

Really, what you've got is a case where the Devils game planned for the series, where they're both aggressive and sometimes unpredictable on the forecheck, and where they run multiple breakouts.

O'k, I'll get **** on for writing this, but I don't see how anyone can watch this (or other series) and NOT see Bylsma as part of the playoff problem..
Someone is not paying attention to what's going on if they don't put a substantial amount of responsibility on the coach. 1) The system is flawed because it is overly-aggressive / relies too much on a speedy back-check if the transition passes fail; that works OK in the regular season because we have the horses. It doesn't work as well in the playoffs where there are no doormats and every team's speed and intensity is ratcheted up a notch; 2) Major adjustments should've been made after Game 2 to clamp down and be more conservative defensively but I suspect there was no backup plan to be had. So we reduced the number of long passes we tried to make and made our F back-check harder and it helped some, but wasn't enough.

Around here all of that gets conflated with "should we fire or not fire the coach". They're two separate issues.

IMO the coach should get a lot of the blame AND keep his job, for the time being. Nobody becomes a great coach after 3 years in the NHL. Takes some hard knocks. I believe Bylsma has what it takes personality-wise to be a great coach (that part is harder to learn than the chalkboard stuff), but we found out the hard way that he was a "one plan man". Any good coach needs to have two or three approaches he can take in the middle of a series or season if things start to go bad.

With some roster adjustments Bylsma should have all the tools at his disposal to mold a team that can play at least two different styles at the drop of a hat, come deadline time. Against teams with weaker offenses we can do what we did this year and we'll be fine. Against teams with dangerous offenses we should be able to play a more conservative brand of D and win some 3-2 type games. Essentially, do what NJ is doing by not making it so damn easy for Philly to dictate the pace of play. If Shero isn't seeing that by February and we're not leading the division or within a few points of same, he should look at another coach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahodac View Post
- Getting under Giroux's skin
This is rarely mentioned and more important than people realize. That guy walked all over us, and Voracek too. No one made either of these guys pay a physical price; it was like they were playing pond-hockey.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
[*]The goaltender is giving his team a chance to win.
This situation is about defense. Marty has been just OK. Good enough to win. The other night he let in 2 of the first 14 shots... and they ended with 18 or something like that. The reality is, we gave the Flyers far more quality scoring chances every game than NJ is giving. We let them gain our zone with speed and they constantly had us on our heels with their cross-ice puck movement. Everything was react, react, react instead of owning the center of the ice and forcing Philly to play a cycle / physical offensive game... which they CAN do, but they're less adept at that, then playing the up-tempo game we tried to stick with most of the series. Our game style allows for some big hits to be made but it's a lot less physical overall than it could be if we slowed things down a bit. Also that up-tempo game leads to more penalties being taken against a team like Philly because we get caught out of position a lot and try to cheat to make up for it.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 05-08-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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Old
05-08-2012, 09:40 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Someone is not paying attention to what's going on if they don't put a substantial amount of responsibility on the coach. 1) The system is flawed because it is overly-aggressive / relies too much on a speedy back-check if the transition passes fail; that works OK in the regular season because we have the horses. It doesn't work as well in the playoffs where there are no doormats and every team's speed and intensity is ratcheted up a notch; 2) Major adjustments should've been made after Game 2 to clamp down and be more conservative defensively but I suspect there was no backup plan to be had. So we reduced the number of long passes we tried to make and made our F back-check harder and it helped some, but wasn't enough.

Around here all of that gets conflated with "should we fire or not fire the coach". They're two separate issues.

IMO the coach should get a lot of the blame AND keep his job, for the time being. Nobody becomes a great coach after 3 years in the NHL. Takes some hard knocks. I believe Bylsma has what it takes personality-wise to be a great coach (that part is harder to learn than the chalkboard stuff), but we found out the hard way that he was a "one plan man". Any good coach needs to have two or three approaches he can take in the middle of a series or season if things start to go bad.

With some roster adjustments Bylsma should have all the tools at his disposal to mold a team that can play at least two different styles at the drop of a hat, come deadline time. Against teams with weaker offenses we can do what we did this year and we'll be fine. Against teams with dangerous offenses we should be able to play a more conservative brand of D and win some 3-2 type games. Essentially, do what NJ is doing by not making it so damn easy for Philly to dictate the pace of play. If Shero isn't seeing that by February and we're not leading the division or within a few points of same, he should look at another coach.




This is rarely mentioned and more important than people realize. That guy walked all over us, and Voracek too. No one made either of these guys pay a physical price; it was like they were playing pond-hockey.




This situation is about defense. Marty has been just OK. Good enough to win. The other night he let in 2 of the first 14 shots... and they ended with 18 or something like that. The reality is, we gave the Flyers far more quality scoring chances every game than NJ is giving. We let them gain our zone with speed and they constantly had us on our heels with their cross-ice puck movement. Everything was react, react, react instead of owning the center of the ice and forcing Philly to play a cycle / physical offensive game... which they CAN do, but they're less adept at that, then playing the up-tempo game we tried to stick with most of the series. Our game style allows for some big hits to be made but it's a lot less physical overall than it could be if we slowed things down a bit. Also that up-tempo game leads to more penalties being taken against a team like Philly because we get caught out of position a lot and try to cheat to make up for it.
My only concern with this is that the regular season isn't the problem. It's easier then to dictate the pace of play, especially when there's a lot less game planning. And, it's that type of measure that someone like Bylsma would embrace to justify things like his Adams love fest.

He's getting another chance. The problem is that you won't know what the regular season results mean. You're rolling the dice with Bylsma in the playoffs next year: It will be hit or miss, and what happens during the regular season will have next to no bearing on it.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:56 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Brodeur's also not letting in softies left, right, and center.
Fleury played like garbage, but let's be honest it was a shooting gallery out there. Quality chance after chance all game long. Against NJ Philly has barely even tested Brodeur. The entire series has been in the Philly zone...it's a shame because that's how we used to play. Instead after Crosby came back they decided they were the 2010 Capitals.

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Old
05-08-2012, 12:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
Fleury played like garbage, but let's be honest it was a shooting gallery out there. Quality chance after chance all game long. Against NJ Philly has barely even tested Brodeur. The entire series has been in the Philly zone...it's a shame because that's how we used to play. Instead after Crosby came back they decided they were the 2010 Capitals.
Exactly but lets just keep focusing on the goalie who cant be replaced anyways. It's easier on our brains.

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Old
05-08-2012, 12:18 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I never could muster up much hate for the Devils all of these years, so it is fun to see them turning Giroux into everything Flyer fans "hate" about Crosby...

I love seeing the same posters who talked **** on Crosby defend Giroux's antics... The whining, the diving, the dirty play... He is just playing with passion you know? The hypocrisy is comical.... Even Richards wasn't this bad.
This, so much.

Every time I watch either the game, or replays of the games I miss, all I see is Giroux either flopping around, crying constantly to the refs in a petulant way, or hacking, whacking or throwing cheap little shots at opponents in this series against the Devils.

He's been everything and more that Flyers fans criticize Crosby for being.

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05-08-2012, 12:35 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
This, so much.

Every time I watch either the game, or replays of the games I miss, all I see is Giroux either flopping around, crying constantly to the refs in a petulant way, or hacking, whacking or throwing cheap little shots at opponents in this series against the Devils.

He's been everything and more that Flyers fans criticize Crosby for being.
He is a great leader though, just like Richards...

If you can't enjoy how ironic this is as a Pens fan you need to check your pulse.

I do have to give him props for producing as well as he does, even though he skates like a goober.

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05-08-2012, 12:44 PM
  #87
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John Buccigross ‏ @Buccigross
All the Sidney Crosby haters are seeing the same things in Claude Giroux: A talented, highly competitve, emotional player. Chirps. "Whines"

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05-08-2012, 12:46 PM
  #88
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Giroux's skating isn't very good and you have to wonder what will it be like 8 or 9 years from now? Probably why he was a second round pick.

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05-08-2012, 01:37 PM
  #89
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Goalie has over a .900 save percentage. Literally the only thing that needed to be done and the Pens would be in this position.

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05-08-2012, 02:41 PM
  #90
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We have to have someone to blame.

NJ is playing their system to a tee. That's what they are doing.

I refuse to believe that DB told Martin to not go into the corner to battle for a puck or Malkin to take stupid penalty after stupid penalty. And getting rid of him as some have mentioned would help us how today .... a DB built team under another coach would have growing pains.

The fact is we had MULTIPLE pieces of our team not doing what they should have. DB gets some, the defense gets some, Fleury gets some and for that matter Johnson should as well. And the fact that people are giving Malkin and Crosby a pass confuses me. They weren't the shining light on an otherwise dreadful group .... they contributed to this mess too by NOT contributing.

Which is why I veer more towards the matchup ... the Rangers owned the Flyers this year .... the Flyers owned us .... and we owned the Rangers. We played the Flyers game all year against them instead of playing our own. NJ isn't worried about the extra crap.

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05-08-2012, 02:49 PM
  #91
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It'll be interesting what kind of numbers Giroux puts up next year. You get the superstar label, teams are going to game plan around you that much more. He has the hockey sense to counter it, but we'll see.

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05-08-2012, 03:01 PM
  #92
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I'm sorry if this has been said already in the thread, but after 10 or so posts of hate I didn't feel like reading anymore.

You can't expect to win every season. I doubt even Barry Trotz will be fired this offseason.


Last edited by Pengo: 05-08-2012 at 03:19 PM.
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05-08-2012, 03:17 PM
  #93
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I'll agree with this to a point, but I'm kind of glad because this time Fleury's play didn't cover up how bad our system is. We need to change our system, tighter checking, which means WE LACK SIZE!!! And Bylsma needs to learn to adapt IN GAME, sometimes things just don't bounce your way and adjustment need to be made. Those adjustment shouldn't just be "OH my god, put Sid and Geno together. Its still not working, Oh GOD!! Put Staal, Sid, and Geno together then. And put 2 forwards on defense too!! The other team will never see us coming!!" quote from the bible of Bylsma
LOL ...

and if that doesn't work, pull the goalie for a 6th forward .

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05-08-2012, 03:20 PM
  #94
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I'm sorry if this has been said already in the thread, but after 10 or so posts of hate I don't feel like reading anymore.

You can't expect to win every season. I doubt even Barry Trotz will be fired this offseason.
1st round exit my man.....
That's the problem.

Maybe we need Dale Hunter .

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05-08-2012, 05:55 PM
  #95
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You can't expect to win every season. I doubt even Barry Trotz will be fired this offseason.
I don't get this sort of response. It's not like the Pens have won 5 straight Cups, then after one early exit people are demanding blood.

Sure, you can't win every year. But with the talent (on paper) this team has, it should do better than 1st or 2nd round exits 3 years in a row.

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05-08-2012, 07:33 PM
  #96
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By that logic, should the Wings start to think about firing Mike Babcock?

The system was fine during the regular season... it can definitely work during the playoffs.

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05-08-2012, 07:50 PM
  #97
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Having studied game tape of Philly without afterwards going "nah, **** it"?
That DeBoer sure has some pretty weird ideas when it comes to coaching . . .

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05-08-2012, 07:53 PM
  #98
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We have to have someone to blame.

NJ is playing their system to a tee. That's what they are doing.

I refuse to believe that DB told Martin to not go into the corner to battle for a puck or Malkin to take stupid penalty after stupid penalty. And getting rid of him as some have mentioned would help us how today .... a DB built team under another coach would have growing pains.

The fact is we had MULTIPLE pieces of our team not doing what they should have. DB gets some, the defense gets some, Fleury gets some and for that matter Johnson should as well. And the fact that people are giving Malkin and Crosby a pass confuses me. They weren't the shining light on an otherwise dreadful group .... they contributed to this mess too by NOT contributing.

Which is why I veer more towards the matchup ... the Rangers owned the Flyers this year .... the Flyers owned us .... and we owned the Rangers. We played the Flyers game all year against them instead of playing our own. NJ isn't worried about the extra crap.
So, basically what we've got here is just a situation of pretty much every player ******** the bed. No problem with Bylsma. Players just didn't listen, didn't try hard enough, didn't execute.

You know what, when it's one, two, maybe three players, I can buy it. When it's pretty much everyone, that's where I start to become suspicious. When I see everyone so frequently hopelessly out of position, I begin to wonder if that's because the coach isn't putting them into position to make plays.

But, maybe you're right. Maybe the players should just try harder and do more. Maybe then skating where your coach puts you at a competitive disadvantage won't look so bad.

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05-08-2012, 07:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
It'll be interesting what kind of numbers Giroux puts up next year. You get the superstar label, teams are going to game plan around you that much more. He has the hockey sense to counter it, but we'll see.
He was the first line center of the Flyers all year long and saw top checking/defensive units all season.

I'm not saying he'll hit 100 points, but there's about no doubt Giroux is a very skilled player with the puck to create plays, and away from the puck to get himself open. It might be interesting as to exactly what kind of numbers he can produce, but there's no doubt in my mind he's a top tier talent in the league.

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05-08-2012, 08:05 PM
  #100
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[QUOTE=Jaded-Fan;49380207 They had defensive issues even then though. But the point is we are overrreacting somewhat to a very small sample size, five games. Which came at the worst time that they could come.[/QUOTE]

No, we're not. For 4-6 weeks in oct/nov they were giving up 3+ a game and at the same I was saying it was absurd and they'd never win a Cup if that was what they thought was acceptable defensive play. And then they did it again for several weeks before the playoffs so it's not just 5 games.

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