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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 13.0

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Old
05-08-2012, 09:24 AM
  #51
Maxpac
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I badly need a good analysis of Galchenyuk. For me with the few game sthat I saw he just doesn't have that star potential that Grigorenko has. He's a safer bet, but does he really have 1st line potential?

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05-08-2012, 09:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
sums up my feelings pretty closely.

i think Dumba & Galchenyuk are the "safest" to make the most out of their potential, though Yakupov, Grigs, Murray & Forsberg all probably have slightly higher end physical talent/skill potential.


If Timmins does favour one of the other kids projecting to be picked later, I hope Bergevin does manage to trade down, but if not, I'll give our scouting team the short-term benefit of the doubt & cross my fingers that we don't end up with a "Hickey".
Disagree with bolded. Dumba is widely viewed as the biggest boom/bust risk at the top of this draft.

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05-08-2012, 09:40 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I badly need a good analysis of Galchenyuk. For me with the few game sthat I saw he just doesn't have that star potential that Grigorenko has. He's a safer bet, but does he really have 1st line potential?
I think his upside is just as high, but what fans and scouts have seen this year won't show it somewhat like Markov because he was just coming back from a major knee injury after missing 6 months, so his timing was off even in the playoffs. Had he played a month of regular season before playoffs he may have had time to get caught up, but their season was over 17 or 18 days after he returned. It's like getting on a highway from a dead stop and the rest of the traffic is going 120 KM/H.

He flashed some great scoring and playmaking skill at 16 and that's basically what teams have to go on. This season only served to prove his knee is sound and his skating was 90% back so the risk there is minimized. what a lot of scouts have told me is they were very impressed with his character and work ethic, wanting to come back and play this year when he could have took his time and aimed for next year.

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05-08-2012, 09:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Menwithouthat tricks View Post
Disagree with bolded. Dumba is widely viewed as the biggest boom/bust risk at the top of this draft.
I think Grigorenko is a bigger risk than Dumba. Dumba has the intangibles, intensity and skill. The only risks are his frame(which a lot of 17 year olds have) but for the type of style he plays and his defensive play/decisions(most 17 year olds also struggle with this). Grigorenko has two things that scare NHL GM's...1-the Russian factor 2-he plays on the perimiter and doesn't initiate or respond well to physical play. The two Grigorenko has will scare more teams IMHO.

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05-08-2012, 09:53 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I think his upside is just as high, but what fans and scouts have seen this year won't show it somewhat like Markov because he was just coming back from a major knee injury after missing 6 months, so his timing was off even in the playoffs. Had he played a month of regular season before playoffs he may have had time to get caught up, but their season was over 17 or 18 days after he returned. It's like getting on a highway from a dead stop and the rest of the traffic is going 120 KM/H.

He flashed some great scoring and playmaking skill at 16 and that's basically what teams have to go on. This season only served to prove his knee is sound and his skating was 90% back so the risk there is minimized. what a lot of scouts have told me is they were very impressed with his character and work ethic, wanting to come back and play this year when he could have took his time and aimed for next year.
It was his draft year. No way was he not going to come back if he was able to.

And noone talks about the character Grigs showed to play through mono and a bum ankle....

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05-08-2012, 09:59 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
It was his draft year. No way was he not going to come back if he was able to.

And noone talks about the character Grigs showed to play through mono and a bum ankle....
There was a bigger risk of coming back after 6 months and struggling and have it hurt his stock.

The whole bum ankle and mono thing can't be compared to blowing out an ACL. Not even in the same stratosphere.

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05-08-2012, 10:05 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
There was a bigger risk of coming back after 6 months and struggling and have it hurt his stock.

The whole bum ankle and mono thing can't be compared to blowing out an ACL. Not even in the same stratosphere.
Gal wouldn't have played if he wasn't 100% good to go.

I'm not going to argue about this, just find it odd that Gal gets put on a pedestal and gets applauded for his "character" for missing most of his draft year with a serious knee injury, while Grigs gets shat on for playing through mono and an ankle injury...

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05-08-2012, 10:08 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Gal wouldn't have played if he wasn't 100% good to go.

I'm not going to argue about this, just find it odd that Gal gets put on a pedestal and gets applauded for his "character" for missing most of his draft year with a serious knee injury, while Grigs gets shat on for playing through mono and an ankle injury...
100% physically, but as I said earlier, it's nearly impossible to come back after missing 6 months and be at the same speed as the rest of the league, even worse at playoff time.

I don't recall anybody ******** on Grigorenko for his ankle or getting mono? Maybe you can give some examples.

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05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
100% physically, but as I said earlier, it's nearly impossible to come back after missing 6 months and be at the same speed as the rest of the league, even worse at playoff time.

I don't recall anybody ******** on Grigorenko for his ankle or getting mono? Maybe you can give some examples.
U know what he meant, there is clearly a double-standard going on right now.

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05-08-2012, 10:15 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
100% physically, but as I said earlier, it's nearly impossible to come back after missing 6 months and be at the same speed as the rest of the league, even worse at playoff time.

I don't recall anybody ******** on Grigorenko for his ankle or getting mono? Maybe you can give some examples.
Do you really want me to quote every single post someone called Grigs "lazy" or questioned his character or desire to play? The fact is the guy could have very easily called it a day after the ankle. And I for one have a hard time even figuring out how he was able to play at all with mono. He may not be as gritty as Galchenyuk, but people really need to stop questioning his character and work ethic etc...

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05-08-2012, 10:18 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
U know what he meant, there is clearly a double-standard going on right now.
What's a double standard?

Even if Grigorenko finished the year with mono and assume he had it for 7-10 days before they found it and it affected his play PLUS you assume that he had a sore ankle right after the WJHC. He is still Russian which makes him a risk(KHL). He is still a player that plays on the perimiter and stays away from physical confrontations with and without the puck.

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05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Do you really want me to quote every single post someone called Grigs "lazy" or questioned his character or desire to play? The fact is the guy could have very easily called it a day after the ankle. And I for one have a hard time even figuring out how he was able to play at all with mono. He may not be as gritty as Galchenyuk, but people really need to stop questioning his character and work ethic etc...
Grigorenko was called "lazy" and his character was questionned by a lot of posters long before he had mono. The ankle thing may have affected his acceleration, to me that's a minor issue, most big guys can improve taht woth hard work anyways.

I never questionned his character or work ethic, but as I said I find he is a perimiter player and avoids physical contact, don't see him as a 1st line player despite the skills. Reminds mee too much of Zherdev and Filatov.

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05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Do you really want me to quote every single post someone called Grigs "lazy" or questioned his character or desire to play? The fact is the guy could have very easily called it a day after the ankle. And I for one have a hard time even figuring out how he was able to play at all with mono. He may not be as gritty as Galchenyuk, but people really need to stop questioning his character and work ethic etc...
People had those concerns about Grigorenko before he had any kind of injury. No one's ever called a healthy Galchenyuk lazy. That's the difference.

I agree that Grigorenko should be applauded for playing through his various injuries but it doesn't erase prior concerns about him either.

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05-08-2012, 10:23 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I badly need a good analysis of Galchenyuk. For me with the few game sthat I saw he just doesn't have that star potential that Grigorenko has. He's a safer bet, but does he really have 1st line potential?
From what I heard Galchenyuk is a top 6 talent. He can be a Hossa type player. Don't expect him to lead the league in scoring anytime. He has the competitiveness of Jonathan Toews and the skills of Marian Hossa. If he wasn't injuried torn ACL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterio...igament_injury from what I heard in medical school, it depends on the individual. Some individual can fully recover but some will have chronic pain. Your muscle is a network, if one part is damaged you can't replace it, it might recover but not the same. He's fairly young so chances of him recovering is higher compare to say Andrei Markov at 33. Another thought is he played with Yakupov his Sarnia career. Question is can Galchenyuk produce on his own. If Yakupov wasn't there Galchenyuk's points total from last season drops from 83 to about 63.

On the other hand questions about Grigorenko's desire to play in the playoffs. Russians have been known to disappear. What if Malkin didn't have Crosby, Staal, Letang and Fleury on the team, can he still dominate in the playoffs? What if Datsyuk didn't have Zetterberg, Lidstrom on the team, could he dominate and win a cup? We all know Grigorenko has size 63' 200lbs, and skills to be a top line player. He didn't really dominate with a very good Rampart team.

I don't know man, there's alot of questions and only Trevor Timmins has the answers.

or we can go with Ryan Murray and we know what we're getting. A top 3 defenseman.

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05-08-2012, 10:26 AM
  #65
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What's a double standard?

Even if Grigorenko finished the year with mono and assume he had it for 7-10 days before they found it and it affected his play PLUS you assume that he had a sore ankle right after the WJHC. He is still Russian which makes him a risk(KHL). He is still a player that plays on the perimiter and stays away from physical confrontations with and without the puck.
It's clear you have an axe to grind.

The KHL thing is overblown. As has been posted here numerous times, the KHL has lost ALOT of it's luster over the last few years. Maybe for a team like Phoenix it would be an issue, but for us? You think Grigs would rather play in the KHL over Les Canadien? Especially when he's come over here already to play junior? It just doesn't seem logical...

Also he may not be bowling guys over, but he hardly is scared of physical play. And he does go to the net. He's no more perimeter than Spezza, Thornton, or Henrik Sedin....

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05-08-2012, 10:30 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
From what I heard Galchenyuk is a top 6 talent. He can be a Hossa type player. Don't expect him to lead the league in scoring anytime. He has the competitiveness of Jonathan Toews and the skills of Marian Hossa. If he wasn't injuried torn ACL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterio...igament_injury from what I heard in medical school, it depends on the individual. Some individual can fully recover but some will have chronic pain. Your muscle is a network, if one part is damaged you can't replace it, it might recover but not the same. He's fairly young so chances of him recovering is higher compare to say Andrei Markov at 33. Another thought is he played with Yakupov his Sarnia career. Question is can Galchenyuk produce on his own. If Yakupov wasn't there Galchenyuk's points total from last season drops from 83 to about 63.

On the other hand questions about Grigorenko's desire to play in the playoffs. Russians have been known to disappear. What if Malkin didn't have Crosby, Staal, Letang and Fleury on the team, can he still dominate in the playoffs? What if Datsyuk didn't have Zetterberg, Lidstrom on the team, could he dominate and win a cup? We all know Grigorenko has size 63' 200lbs, and skills to be a top line player. He didn't really dominate with a very good Rampart team.

I don't know man, there's alot of questions and only Trevor Timmins has the answers.

or we can go with Ryan Murray and we know what we're getting. A top 3 defenseman.
In the playoffs he had mono. In the regular season he was (and is) an MVP candidate. In his first year in NA no less....

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05-08-2012, 10:32 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Do you really want me to quote every single post someone called Grigs "lazy" or questioned his character or desire to play? The fact is the guy could have very easily called it a day after the ankle. And I for one have a hard time even figuring out how he was able to play at all with mono. He may not be as gritty as Galchenyuk, but people really need to stop questioning his character and work ethic etc...
Maybe you should talk to Blair MacKasey, he thinks Grigs is lazy.

http://www.985sports.ca/hockey/nouve...it-143297.html

If only one person questioned his character, you could write it off, but with so many pro scouts (not hfboard posters) questioning his character, it raises alot of red flags.

For me he's a ND for the top 5, but would draft top 10.

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05-08-2012, 10:33 AM
  #68
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It's clear you have an axe to grind.

The KHL thing is overblown. As has been posted here numerous times, the KHL has lost ALOT of it's luster over the last few years. Maybe for a team like Phoenix it would be an issue, but for us? You think Grigs would rather play in the KHL over Les Canadien? Especially when he's come over here already to play junior? It just doesn't seem logical...

Also he may not be bowling guys over, but he hardly is scared of physical play. And he does go to the net. He's no more perimeter than Spezza, Thornton, or Henrik Sedin....
Kuznetsov, who had an incredible WJHC tournament just signed a contract to stay over in Russia for two more years, instead of coming over and playing with Alexander Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin. I seriously doubt Les Canadiens means anything to anyone in Russia.

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05-08-2012, 10:39 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I badly need a good analysis of Galchenyuk. For me with the few game sthat I saw he just doesn't have that star potential that Grigorenko has. He's a safer bet, but does he really have 1st line potential?
Some stuff from an excellent OHL site:

http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2011...1994-born.html

Quote:
3. Alex Galchenyuk - Sarnia Sting
Alex is just a tremendous offensive player. He might have the best hands in the entire OHL, and next year's he's going to make one NHL GM very happy. Along with Nail Yakupov, he's become such an electrifying player who plays the game at full speed ahead. He's also got a bit of a mean streak, which he'll need as teams start to further zero in on him. I wouldn't be surprised if he lead the league in scoring next year.
http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2012...-for-2012.html

Quote:
One contributor who's in the former category of the previous comment, suggests people are forgetting that some had Galchenyuk rated ahead of Yakupov at the end of last season. "Count me in the group who had Galchenyuk ahead of Yakupov coming into the season, but itís tough to move him up when he hasnít played a regular season game this year. Galchenyuk should get in the lineup before the playoffs end, but if he doesnít light it up Iím not going to be too concerned given his layoff." Another contributor agrees. "He wrecked a knee, but that's not going to wreck his vision and how he sees the ice." Ditto for another contributor. "This kid has insane offensive creativity and if he was healthy, he'd be pushing for the top spot in the draft. A lot of people are forgetting that. He's certainly better than Grigorenko IMO." Here's hoping for a return, and a productive one, in March so that Galchenyuk can reaffirm his placement as one of the top player's in this draft.
http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2012...e-guru_19.html

Quote:
BO: "Hypothetically speaking, if Alex Galchenyuk doesnít tear up his knee, does he compete with Nail (and Grigerenko for that matter) for first overall?"

DB: "I have an advantage as I was part of the scouting staff in Sarnia that drafted Alex first overall and saw him play quite often as a member of the Chicago Young Americans and last year in his OHL rookie season. Galchenyuk has elite skills and marries it with a competitive streak that is unrivalled by his peers. In addition to his scoring exploits, as he was the highest scoring 94 in the OHL last season with 83 points in all 68 games, he is an incredibly smart-two player. He simply hates to loose and his training regime is second to none as he is very committed off ice. There is speculation that he may return at the end of February as he is rehabbing his knee twice a day and making special trips to London for treatment. Should he return it would be great for the Sting and the league as he is worth the price of admission."
http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2012...uide-guru.html

Quote:
BO - I have to ask you about the return of Alex Galchenyuk. How do you feel he fared in his brief return to action? Did he cement himself as a Top 10 pick? Top 5 pick?

DB - We have always had him in our top 10 since the beginning of the season. I was part of the scouting staff that drafted Galchenyuk with the first overall pick so I understand the mental make up of the player and the fact that he willingly came back and not only played but contributed in the playoffs is a testament to his skill and character. He is a player that leads by example and has the skills to be a game breaker at the NHL level, his skating has marked considerable improvement and he plays a 200 foot game. During the playoffs he was a step behind plays but given the severity of his injury, one can certainly not fault him for that. Galchenyuk is extremely hard working off the ice as his training regimen rivals that of current NHL'ers. I think given his commitment and the work he will do in the off-season he has an outside chance of sticking next year in the NHL. He will certainly get his 6-8 game NHL audition similar to that of Mark Schiefele of the Winnipeg Jets last season.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=7504

Quote:
"Despite the loss, I could certainly see the high-end talent that Galchenyuk has," Jensen told NHL.com. "His shifts during the game were limited and very short as was to be expected. He's an excellent skater, very strong strides. He didn't get any chances but handled the puck well with confidence and made a couple of nice passes.

"He's got great hands overall for a player that has missed so much time this year with the injury. It looks very promising for him moving forward -- he's an excellent prospect."

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05-08-2012, 10:39 AM
  #70
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Kuznetsov, who had an incredible WJHC tournament just signed a contract to stay over in Russia for two more years, instead of coming over and playing with Alexander Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin. I seriously doubt Les Canadiens means anything to anyone in Russia.
But Kuznetzov was drafted out of Russia. Grigorenko has already made the move to North America, one year prior to being drafted. That, to me, speaks volumes about his desire to play here and in the NHL.

He is still on my draft list for the #3. Obviously, Timmins and co will have to analyze Grigorenko completely to see if the concerns regarding his "lazyness" are founded and erect a proper and realistic ceiling for this young man and weigh it against Galchenyuk's. If they decide to go for Grigorenko, I will completely understand as I think Timmins is one of the best in the business and will have done homework. Same thing if they decide to go for Galchenyuk or any other player.

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05-08-2012, 10:42 AM
  #71
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The only way I see us drafting Grigorenko is we bring Patty Roy on as coach. He seems to be the only coach we know that can motivate Grig.

Grigorenko (take the Russian name away), is a talented 6'3' 200lbs 17 year old, top 6 talent. He seems mature for his age in his interviews. Once he finish growing I think he'll be around 6'4" 220lbs at least. Alot of teams are drooling over the size and talents alone. I think if put in the right environment and under the right coach, he could turn out to be a #1 center.

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05-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #72
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I badly need a good analysis of Galchenyuk. For me with the few game sthat I saw he just doesn't have that star potential that Grigorenko has. He's a safer bet, but does he really have 1st line potential?
Yes he does, what I like about him is the style he plays. You can rarely look at him and say he's getting flat-out beat by the other team, he remains in the play and is an active participant in all phases on the ice. Think of a mix between Jonathan Toews and Marian Hossa. He will likely take a bit more time to put it all together than others, but the upside is tremendous to have a guy who is good all over the ice, with a big offensive impact because of his size, speed and hockey sense. He's also a gym rat(just like Yakupov) so he's already in the top tier for preparation ethics. From a personality point of view, I like that he's so worldly, that opens up the mind and gives him a good maturity level for his age.

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05-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #73
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Those interviews there are exactly why I want Galchenyuk.

Hands, vision.. those might be on par or below Grigorenko.. but the competitive streak, the training regiment, the hatred of losing; that is what makes a player better than another.

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05-08-2012, 10:50 AM
  #74
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Galchenyuk all day for me. I'm always very leery of these medical revelations "after the fact." Galchenyuk seems like everything the Habs want and need. No reason to pass on such a dedicated and talented center.

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05-08-2012, 10:51 AM
  #75
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but the competitive streak, the training regiment, the hatred of losing; that is what makes a player better than another.
Especially at this time of the year.

Now before someone brings up ''why did Sarnia get eliminated in round 1 then?'', those playoffs were basically a training camp for him.

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