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Flames Rebuild

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #26
Trafalgar McLaw
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Did Ottawa go through a full-scale re-build? No... they re-tooled. You can find success without tearing the entire ship down. I would suspect the Flames are going to follow the Ottawa model.
The difference between Calgary and Ottawa is that Ottawa has Erik Karlsson who's worth more than Calgary's entire pool of young players.


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Originally Posted by The Hendog View Post
So you are admitting you need more than a scorch earth team rebuild to be successful... Developing draft picks even if they are not top 5 i.e. not scorch earth is very important to creating a winning team... using that logic - earth scorched rebuild isn't really necessary then to create a winning team. See pretty much all the teams remaining in the playoffs aside from the Caps - not scorched earth rebuild teams but young teams that were developed properly and are enjoying that success = scorch earthed is not the only successful way to rebuild a hockey team

Not true. Most teams in the playoffs are teams that have been consistently competitive and attract free agents, or have a fantastic youth pool to back it up. Phoenix has an incredible group of young players. Nashville is competitive year in year out, Los Angeles went through a scorched Earth reuild, NYR is always competitive and can attract guys like Brad Richards, Philly is always competitive as well, New Jersey is always competitive (last season was an outlier due to Parise's injury and Kovalchuk ******** the bed), Washington was a full scale rebuild.

Calgary is neither a competitive team nor do they have a good prospect pool. And no, Ferland and Reinhart are not good prospects, on most teams with good prospect pools, they would be 10-15.

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05-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Pretty sure that scorched earth seems to be the prevailing model of rebuild in the NHL these days.

You can't tell me that what Pittsburgh, Chicago, or Edmonton have built with their abysmal years isn't totally worth it.
For every Pittsburgh and Chicago, there is a Florida/NYI/CBJ.

Heck, Min is fighting for a similar position as the Flames. But they aren't having threads popping up on the main board by rival fans selling off everything they own.

Flames will most likely rebuild similar to OTT/PHI. Deal with it.

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:15 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Flames1217 View Post
To Wsh:
Jarome Iginla

To Calgary:
Rights to Semin
Yevgeni Kuznetsov
Colorado's 1st
This deal is only if Semin does not agree to sign with Washington.

To Pitsburg:
Alex Tanguay

To Calgary:
Simon Depres

To Tampa:
Mikka Kiprusoff

To Calgary:
Brett Connelly
1st in 2013

I am a flames fan so i doubt these are reasonable, some time we tend to look threw rose coloured glasses.
Those are all absolutely horrible.

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:27 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
I just don't get how anyone can look at the Oilers and see that as a successful rebuild. HF=Fail
What about Chicago who won the cup because they did the rebuild.

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:29 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Hendog View Post
For every team that has success with a scorched earth rebuilds there are the other teams that have tried this and failed miserable - see Blue Jackets & Islanders
I know the Islanders are getting closer but they still haven't had a decent playoff appearance since 2002 and the Blue Jackets have never won a playoff game!
Columbus has to have the worst scouting staff in the league.

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:40 AM
  #31
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Bouwmeester and Backlund for Schenn

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:47 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
The difference between Calgary and Ottawa is that Ottawa has Erik Karlsson who's worth more than Calgary's entire pool of young players.
LOL, sure, attribute it to whatever you want. But you're missing the point in that Calgary will prefer to go the Ottawa route of a re-tool, not a re-build... you're already seeing it with the Roman Cervenka signing.

Plus, Calgary's got a good base of young players - Backlund, Bouma, Nemisz, Byron, Baertschi, Reinhart, Ferland, Guadreau, Ramage, Wotherspoon, Irving, Brossoit... that will supplement the competitive group of veteran platers that will remain on the main roster.

Calgary's future isn't a bleak as you make it sound.

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:53 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
What about Chicago who won the cup because they did the rebuild.
Exactly delusional oiler fan, they won a god damn cup! The Oilers have doen nothing but stink up the basement for the past 5 years.

When the Oilers win cup or come close then you can look at them as a successful rebuild. Only on HF would someone use the Oilers as successful rebuild at this time. FML

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Did Ottawa go through a full-scale re-build? No... they re-tooled. You can find success without tearing the entire ship down. I would suspect the Flames are going to follow the Ottawa model.
Ottawa had excellent young pieces in the wings waiting to step up right away (Karlsson, Cowen, and Rundblad previously)

Either way I expect that Ottawa will take a small step back next year, I don't think they are as good as they performed this year.

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05-08-2012, 11:14 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
LOL, sure, attribute it to whatever you want. But you're missing the point in that Calgary will prefer to go the Ottawa route of a re-tool, not a re-build... you're already seeing it with the Roman Cervenka signing.

Plus, Calgary's got a good base of young players - Backlund, Bouma, Nemisz, Byron, Baertschi, Reinhart, Ferland, Guadreau, Ramage, Wotherspoon, Irving, Brossoit... that will supplement the competitive group of veteran platers that will remain on the main roster.

Calgary's future isn't a bleak as you make it sound.
You cannot possibly think that group (which is rated bottom 5 by everyone from THN to HF btw) is remotely close to Karlsson, Cowen, Lehner, Zibanejad, Silferberg and crew. Everyone except Flames fans agree that that's a terrible group of young players. You know who have a good group of young players? The Oilers and the Senators, the Flames group can't even be mentioned in the same breath as these two.

Also Jarome Iginla is probably gone from the Flames by the end of next year anyways. Either he's traded, or he's leaving as a free agent. There's no way he's going to stay in Calgary unless he doesn't want a cup in his career.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
What about Chicago who won the cup because they did the rebuild.
Chicago had more than a scorched Earth rebuild. They also got extremely lucky with cap structure, trades, and FA acquisition:

Bolland at 32nd overall.
Hossa acquired as free agent.
Duncan Keith at 54th overall.
Brent Seabrook at 14th overall.
Versteeg for Brandon Bochenski.
Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison.
Byfuglien at 245th overall.

Then Chicago happened to be able to fit all those players under the cap for one year before having to dismantle. And yes they drafted Kane and Toews in the top 3.

But it wasn't just the rebuild. In fact, relying on a the "Rebuild" is a huge gamble. Odds are you won't draft Crosby. Odds are you won't have the luck that Chicago did in acquiring players elsewhere. Much better to create an atmosphere of winnign and use strong asset management.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Columbus has to have the worst scouting staff in the league.
We used to. We went from "hideously incompetent on an epic scale" to "average to below-average". The draft is much better now, but it's not at the tremendous scale that would have been necessary to see a quick turnaround from the MacLean years.

Of course, attempts to boost the process with pickups like Mike Commodore and Jeff Carter haven't helped either. And current management has tried way too many times to lean on Steve Mason. But we're actually getting some NHL players out of the later rounds of the draft now, which was almost unthinkable in the early years.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
Bouwmeester and Backlund for Schenn
Yeah. I'm sure TO would just love to take Jbo's salary on. As if they don't have enough cap problems.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
You cannot possibly think that group (which is rated bottom 5 by everyone from THN to HF btw) is remotely close to Karlsson, Cowen, Lehner, Zibanejad, Silferberg and crew. Everyone except Flames fans agree that that's a terrible group of young players. You know who have a good group of young players? The Oilers and the Senators, the Flames group can't even be mentioned in the same breath as these two.
Much of those rating were made at the beginning of last year, and punished Calgary for having no top end offensive talent. Things have changed a lot during the last year.

Baertschi has emerged as arguably the best player in North American juniors. The Flames have acquired Cervenka. Irving, Holland, Brodie, and Ferland all took huge steps forward.

At the beginning of the year it looked like the Flames would be relying on Wahl and Nemisz, and, yes, things looked pretty hopeless. A lot has changed in the last year and the Flames don't need to blow it up anymore.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Also Jarome Iginla is probably gone from the Flames by the end of next year anyways. Either he's traded, or he's leaving as a free agent. There's no way he's going to stay in Calgary unless he doesn't want a cup in his career.
You don't know a damn thing, so stop talking like you do.

Jarome Iginla will not leave Calgary as a UFA. Franchise players that have already played 17 years with the team don't do that, and certainly not one of Iginla's character and loyalty.

The only way Iginla leaves Calgary is through a trade, and only if he requests it.

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Old
05-08-2012, 11:51 AM
  #41
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JBo and Jokinen don't have any real value and the Goalie market is looking crowded for Kipper. Iginla should net a hefty return though.

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05-08-2012, 11:53 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
JBo and Jokinen don't have any real value and the Goalie market is looking crowded for Kipper. Iginla should net a hefty return though.
how so? If Kipper went on the market, would he not be the best goalie? He's better then Luongo.

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05-08-2012, 11:55 AM
  #43
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I don't know what we'd have to give up I'd love to have Kipper

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Old
05-08-2012, 12:10 PM
  #44
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how so? If Kipper went on the market, would he not be the best goalie? He's better then Luongo.
Debatable. I think Luongo is better, but taking contracts into consideration Kipper likely holds more value. Regardless, take into account teams that are looking for a number one goalie and taking out the teams that are looking for a younger guy and you have a pretty narrow field. Add in increased supply (Luongo, Vokoun, Harding and possibly Thomas) and you have a clear cut buyers market. I'm not saying he can't get a good return, but its not going to be top prospects, high 1sts or young NHLers.

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05-08-2012, 12:12 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
Debatable. Regardless, take into account teams that are looking for a number one goalie and taking out the teams that are looking for a younger guy and you have a pretty narrow field. Add in increased supply (Luongo, Vokoun, Harding and possibly Thomas) and you have a clear cut buyers market. I'm not saying he can't get a good return, but its not going to be top prospects, high 1sts or young NHLers.
I don't want to sound like a homer, but I'd say that Kipper is the top of the pile. Just my opinion, but if GM's agree with me, Kipper could land a great return.

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05-08-2012, 12:19 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
You cannot possibly think that group (which is rated bottom 5 by everyone from THN to HF btw) is remotely close to Karlsson, Cowen, Lehner, Zibanejad, Silferberg and crew. Everyone except Flames fans agree that that's a terrible group of young players. You know who have a good group of young players? The Oilers and the Senators, the Flames group can't even be mentioned in the same breath as these two.

Also Jarome Iginla is probably gone from the Flames by the end of next year anyways. Either he's traded, or he's leaving as a free agent. There's no way he's going to stay in Calgary unless he doesn't want a cup in his career.
See blankall's post. Sums it up nicely.

The Flames have turned a corner in the last two years and drafted some quality prospects, despite what you believe.

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05-08-2012, 12:48 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
I don't want to sound like a homer, but I'd say that Kipper is the top of the pile. Just my opinion, but if GM's agree with me, Kipper could land a great return.
Depends on what your looking for. Thomas has been more successful, Luongo likely has a larger window, Harding and Vokoun are cheaper (UFA's). Then again, its unclear that Feaster or Calgary's ownership will actually trade Kipper (or Iginla).

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05-08-2012, 12:57 PM
  #48
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Depends on what your looking for. Thomas has been more successful, Luongo likely has a larger window, Harding and Vokoun are cheaper (UFA's). Then again, its unclear that Feaster or Calgary's ownership will actually trade Kipper (or Iginla).
Yeah, you're right, everythig at this point is speculation. We really have to see where the chips start falling, especially the FA goalies.

Regarding Feaster vs. Management. I strongly believe it is all management that will not pull the trigger on Iggy. If they were to move someone big this offseason, I have a feeling it is Kipper. They might be able to get Ramo out of the last year of his contract in the KHL. If that happens, Kipper is gone IMO.

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:00 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
You don't know a damn thing, so stop talking like you do.

Jarome Iginla will not leave Calgary as a UFA. Franchise players that have already played 17 years with the team don't do that, and certainly not one of Iginla's character and loyalty.

The only way Iginla leaves Calgary is through a trade, and only if he requests it.
I highly doubt that Jarome Iginla wants to retire without a Stanley Cup. Every player goes into the NHL to win the ultimate prize.

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:05 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by gooilgo View Post
Yeah. I'm sure TO would just love to take Jbo's salary on. As if they don't have enough cap problems.
The Flames wouldn't friggin touch that deal.

Bouwmeester >>>>>> Schenn
Backlund >>>>> all the centers on the Leafs outside of Grabovski

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