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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 13.0

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Old
05-08-2012, 10:51 AM
  #76
Et le But
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Not many people said Grigorenko is lazy. It's that he's a perimeter player who isn't comfortable in tons of traffic and has been known to occasionally take a shift off.

This was all before the injury and whatever.

If anything playing through an ankle injury shows that he's probably not lazy, but comparing a minor ankle injury to an ACL tear is extreme. We don't even know the extent of Grigorenko's injury and sickness, it could have been anything from nothing to something serious.

So there's questions about both Grigo and Gally since we couldn't see them at their best. Galchenyuk was comparable in his skill level before the injury, but obviously a year of development at that age and a lot can change.

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05-08-2012, 10:56 AM
  #77
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For me, the fun part of the draft will be after our first round pick. Bergevin said he is likely keeping it (thank god) so we're guaranteed to have a very solid prospect between Forsberg/Galchenyuk/Grigorenko or a superstar in Yakupov if Tambellini and Howson go nuts.

What will they do with their 2 seconds? We have a lot of good prospects as Timmins is likely the best from round 3 to 7, so I would personnaly trade up for another safer first round pick.

If one of Collberg, Gaunce, Ceci, Maata is still there around 15-20, that could be a solid move since we already have 3 seconds for 2013 as well. This is gonna be very interesting.....

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05-08-2012, 10:57 AM
  #78
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So, for those defending Grigorenko and Galchenyuk.

Grigorenko = Spezza type, doesn't initiate contact but protects the puck well, has amazing vision and a good acurate shot, needs a true finisher to reach full potential, can be a 100pt player


Galchenyuk = Toews type, good playmaking, great shot, gritty, high hockey IQ team oriented, capable of playing many different roles, Can be 80-90 pt player, with leadership qualities.



Both would need another year in Juniors, but both would make excellent NHLers.
Either are good choices at #3. But, I personally would lean to Galchenyuk, as he is more in the mold of what I feel we need in Montreal. Grigorenko is also an excellent choice. I watched him this year (especially in the 2nd round) and he was "off" but was still able to contribute something.

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05-08-2012, 11:10 AM
  #79
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For me I don't really have a guy that we HAVE to take, or I'll be *****ing and hating the player and complaining about it to no end.

I just have a fear that Grigorenko with an offseason in NA to get healthy and such is just going to absolutely DESTROY the Q next year, and he's going to end up the steal of the draft. Perhaps with the Leafs. I would hate that.

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05-08-2012, 11:14 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
For me I don't really have a guy that we HAVE to take, or I'll be *****ing and hating the player and complaining about it to no end.

I just have a fear that Grigorenko with an offseason in NA to get healthy and such is just going to absolutely DESTROY the Q next year, and he's going to end up the steal of the draft. Perhaps with the Leafs. I would hate that.
Let him go the Leafs. He will make their team better in the regular season, turn Kessel into a 50 goal scorer. He won't bring them to the promised land in the play-offs.

I'd much be more worried if the Leafs go Galchenyuk.

Reguardless, the Leafs are going to end up with either Grigorenko, Dumba, Forsberg or Galchenyuk.

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05-08-2012, 11:16 AM
  #81
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I just can't see Burke drafting Grigorenko. Some stereotypes hold true, and Burke not drafting Russians is one of them (at least not with such a high pick). Forsberg on the other hand seems like an ideal Leafs pick.

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05-08-2012, 11:21 AM
  #82
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Kuznetsov, who had an incredible WJHC tournament just signed a contract to stay over in Russia for two more years, instead of coming over and playing with Alexander Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin. I seriously doubt Les Canadiens means anything to anyone in Russia.
He never came to north America to learn our style of play or take the tie to learn the language like Grigorenko did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Grigorenko

Grigorenko moved to Quebec City with his mother and older brother, Yuri.[4] While he initially didn't understand English, Grigorenko took classes five days a week with a Russian teacher and by the end of the season he was able to conduct interviews in English without the aid of a translator.[4

Doesn't sound like a guy who doesn't want to play in the NHL.

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05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #83
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Let him go the Leafs. He will make their team better in the regular season, turn Kessel into a 50 goal scorer. He won't bring them to the promised land in the play-offs.

I'd much be more worried if the Leafs go Galchenyuk.

Reguardless, the Leafs are going to end up with either Grigorenko, Dumba, Forsberg or Galchenyuk.
I really don't get where that is coming from...

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05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
So, for those defending Grigorenko and Galchenyuk.

Grigorenko = Spezza type, doesn't initiate contact but protects the puck well, has amazing vision and a good acurate shot, needs a true finisher to reach full potential, can be a 100pt player

Galchenyuk = Toews type, good playmaking, great shot, gritty, high hockey IQ team oriented, capable of playing many different roles, Can be 80-90 pt player, with leadership qualities.

Both would need another year in Juniors, but both would make excellent NHLers.
Either are good choices at #3. But, I personally would lean to Galchenyuk, as he is more in the mold of what I feel we need in Montreal. Grigorenko is also an excellent choice. I watched him this year (especially in the 2nd round) and he was "off" but was still able to contribute something.
Interesting summaries, I like your summaries of the players' skillsets, well done there. But I find your projections unrealistic, especially the numbers. Even your high end comps, Spezza and Toews, never hit 100 and 80 point seasons respectively. I would also say the odds are good that one of these players will never become an "excellent NHL'er" - a lot can happen between the ages of 17 and, say, 22 that can lead to a plateau.

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05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He never came to north America to learn our style of play or take the tie to learn the language like Grigorenko did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Grigorenko

Grigorenko moved to Quebec City with his mother and older brother, Yuri.[4] While he initially didn't understand English, Grigorenko took classes five days a week with a Russian teacher and by the end of the season he was able to conduct interviews in English without the aid of a translator.[4

Doesn't sound like a guy who doesn't want to play in the NHL.
that's great. But it doesn't automatically guarantee Montreal picks him over anyone else.

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05-08-2012, 11:35 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I really don't get where that is coming from...
I watched him extensively in the Halifax series. He has impeccable talent, vision. But he did not seem to want the puck on his stick in crucial points in the game. He didn't want to get through traffic. He would stand in front of the net, but he didn't battle to get the puck back once he lost it. He was uninspired on the backcheck as well.

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05-08-2012, 11:41 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Interesting summaries, I like your summaries of the players' skillsets, well done there. But I find your projections unrealistic, especially the numbers. Even your high end comps, Spezza and Toews, never hit 100 and 80 point seasons respectively. I would also say the odds are good that one of these players will never become an "excellent NHL'er" - a lot can happen between the ages of 17 and, say, 22 that can lead to a plateau.
I was only comparing their styles for ease of reference. As for high end on pts, that as well is a high end and not necessarily does it mean they fit into the player compared to mold. Excellent NHLers also doesn't mean yearly All-Star selections and a HOF career. If they get consistent 70 pt years and win a few trophies, that counts too.

I only posted it because I was getting tired of Grigorenko supporters slamming Galchenyuk and vice-versa.

It's turning into the Price-Halak flame war all over again....and neither have been drafted by us yet

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05-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
that's great. But it doesn't automatically guarantee Montreal picks him over anyone else.
Hmmm M I missing something? Where exactly did I say/imply that?

It's a response to a poster saying he was a risk to bolt to the KHL. Doesn't look like he's a flight risk considering all the trouble he went through to come here before his draft year. If actions speak older than words, that's a pretty positive statement that he wants to play for an NHL team. Which one is what the draft will determine but again, no where did I make mention or allude to who that team would be.


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05-08-2012, 11:54 AM
  #89
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I thought y'all might be interested in this - http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2012/...lass#storyjump - scouting reports from the '87 draft.

It's tempting to make a comparison between Turgeon and Grigorenko based on these comments:

"He has been criticized for being inconsistent and an under-achiever...'What everybody questions is his ability to perform every game,' a scout said. 'Some nights, he's just not interested in playing.' Said another, 'In the playoffs, he didn't pick up the challenge.'"

"He didn't play particularly well in the last half of the season and was a disappointment in the playoffs. Nor does he seem to be a leader."


Although, looking back at the numbers, Turgeon's production was ridiculous in his draft year, whereas Grigorenko's was simply great.

Anyway, relevant or not, it's fun looking back at some of those quotes.

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05-08-2012, 12:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
It's clear you have an axe to grind.

The KHL thing is overblown. As has been posted here numerous times, the KHL has lost ALOT of it's luster over the last few years. Maybe for a team like Phoenix it would be an issue, but for us? You think Grigs would rather play in the KHL over Les Canadien? Especially when he's come over here already to play junior? It just doesn't seem logical...

Also he may not be bowling guys over, but he hardly is scared of physical play. And he does go to the net. He's no more perimeter than Spezza, Thornton, or Henrik Sedin....
Why would I have an axe to grind? I just want my favorite team to pick the best player in order for it to have success. I just don't see that player being Grigorenko at #3.

How is the KHL overblown when they end up getting about half(or more) of the Russians who should be in the NHL? If the KHL lost all it's lustre, why are Kuznetsov and Tarasenko staying there instead of coming to NA?

I'm sure most players would rather play for the Habs than KHL but once money enters the picture they change their minds. That's why Emelin stayed there 4 years and the two players mentionned above stayed, and Perezhogin left at 23.

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05-08-2012, 12:05 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I watched him extensively in the Halifax series. He has impeccable talent, vision. But he did not seem to want the puck on his stick in crucial points in the game. He didn't want to get through traffic. He would stand in front of the net, but he didn't battle to get the puck back once he lost it. He was uninspired on the backcheck as well.
He was battling mono. The fact he was playing at all tells you more than how he was playing.

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05-08-2012, 12:20 PM
  #92
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But Kuznetzov was drafted out of Russia. Grigorenko has already made the move to North America, one year prior to being drafted. That, to me, speaks volumes about his desire to play here and in the NHL.

He is still on my draft list for the #3. Obviously, Timmins and co will have to analyze Grigorenko completely to see if the concerns regarding his "lazyness" are founded and erect a proper and realistic ceiling for this young man and weigh it against Galchenyuk's. If they decide to go for Grigorenko, I will completely understand as I think Timmins is one of the best in the business and will have done homework. Same thing if they decide to go for Galchenyuk or any other player.
Just because he is playong over here doesn't mean the KHL won't come calling offering big money to go back and play at home. It's all fine if his development is seemless and things go great, but as we know a lot of prospects have bumps in the road or take a while to reach their potential, if he decides to bolt when the "going gets tough" or the money is good like Radulov and Filatov then you can potentially temporary lose a big asset or even permamently like many who didn't come back(Morozov for one).

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05-08-2012, 12:25 PM
  #93
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Just because he is playong over here doesn't mean the KHL won't come calling offering big money to go back and play at home. It's all fine if his development is seemless and things go great, but as we know a lot of prospects have bumps in the road or take a while to reach their potential, if he decides to bolt when the "going gets tough" or the money is good like Radulov and Filatov then you can potentially temporary lose a big asset or even permamently like many who didn't come back(Morozov for one).
Why are you making such a big deal on something thats a long shot to begin with?

Very few Russian prospects drafted this high after having come to north America to learn our game and acclimate to our culture go back. The only guy I can think if is Radulov and he came back to Nashville. Can you name any other top 5 Russian drafted prospect who's gone back to Russia? A top 10? I can't think of any off the top of my head and the only names I think that we're dafted this high ALL play in the NHL despite getting humongous offers to play in the KHL.

This seems like your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Is it a possibility, yes. Is it likely, no.

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05-08-2012, 12:25 PM
  #94
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What's a double standard?

Even if Grigorenko finished the year with mono and assume he had it for 7-10 days before they found it and it affected his play PLUS you assume that he had a sore ankle right after the WJHC. He is still Russian which makes him a risk(KHL). He is still a player that plays on the perimiter and stays away from physical confrontations with and without the puck.
I saw him play in February I think? It was against the Screaming Eagles, in Québec City. Grigorenko was much better than anyone on the ice: crisper, precise passes, strong shot, smooth skater (although I don't think I saw him hustle once), the thing that really annoyed me all game long is that he never was in the dangerous areas. He was always far away from the net.

It was just one game. But unless he had Mono already in Feb, I think the common conception that Grigorenko is a perimeter player isn't overblown. I think it's possible to be succesful in the NHL playing that style of hockey, especially if a player is very talented. I don't know if Grigo is "lazy", or if he just shies away from traffic, or if he feels he can produce more by staying away from the slot, but it certainly feels like I'm not the only one that noticed this pattern in his play.

And again, just one game. Maybe I just caught him on a cold streak.

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05-08-2012, 12:30 PM
  #95
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So, for those defending Grigorenko and Galchenyuk.

Grigorenko = Spezza type, doesn't initiate contact but protects the puck well, has amazing vision and a good acurate shot, needs a true finisher to reach full potential, can be a 100pt player


Galchenyuk = Toews type, good playmaking, great shot, gritty, high hockey IQ team oriented, capable of playing many different roles, Can be 80-90 pt player, with leadership qualities.



Both would need another year in Juniors, but both would make excellent NHLers.
Either are good choices at #3. But, I personally would lean to Galchenyuk, as he is more in the mold of what I feel we need in Montreal. Grigorenko is also an excellent choice. I watched him this year (especially in the 2nd round) and he was "off" but was still able to contribute something.
I don't see 100 points out of Grigorenko even in a career year(call me a hater if you want, I don't care). First in today's NHL a 100 point year is very rare. Second in order to get to that level you need not only skill but a lot of drive(like Ovechkin Crosby Malkin Giroux), Grigorenko simply does not have anywhere near their drive in his game. That's something you usually have or don't have. The best coach on earth can't turn Zherdev or Kovalev into a Morrow or Smyth in terms of drive. Plus you also have to score garbage points to get to that level, get to the net and take abuse, something Grigorenko doesn't do.

I also don't see the Spezza comparison...Spezza had 73 assists in 56 games at 17(116 points). Grigorenko had 45 assists in 59 games and 85 total points. Goal scoring was pretty even but Spezza is 5x the playmaker.

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05-08-2012, 12:35 PM
  #96
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Hmmm M I missing something? Where exactly did I say/imply that?

It's a response to a poster saying he was a risk to bolt to the KHL. Doesn't look like he's a flight risk considering all the trouble he went through to come here before his draft year. If actions speak older than words, that's a pretty positive statement that he wants to play for an NHL team. Which one is what the draft will determine but again, no where did I make mention or allude to who that team would be.
Good point, another Radulov...

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05-08-2012, 12:37 PM
  #97
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I don't see 100 points out of Grigorenko even in a career year(call me a hater if you want, I don't care). First in today's NHL a 100 point year is very rare. Second in order to get to that level you need not only skill but a lot of drive(like Ovechkin Crosby Malkin Giroux), Grigorenko simply does not have anywhere near their drive in his game. That's something you usually have or don't have. The best coach on earth can't turn Zherdev or Kovalev into a Morrow or Smyth in terms of drive. Plus you also have to score garbage points to get to that level, get to the net and take abuse, something Grigorenko doesn't do.

I also don't see the Spezza comparison...Spezza had 73 assists in 56 games at 17(116 points). Grigorenko had 45 assists in 59 games and 85 total points. Goal scoring was pretty even but Spezza is 5x the playmaker.
only using a loose style comparison. Not the production

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05-08-2012, 12:39 PM
  #98
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Why are you making such a big deal on something thats a long shot to begin with?

Very few Russian prospects drafted this high after having come to north America to learn our game and acclimate to our culture go back. The only guy I can think if is Radulov and he came back to Nashville. Can you name any other top 5 Russian drafted prospect who's gone back to Russia? A top 10? I can't think of any off the top of my head and the only names I think that we're dafted this high ALL play in the NHL despite getting humongous offers to play in the KHL.

This seems like your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Is it a possibility, yes. Is it likely, no.
First, there are not a ton of Russians that caome paly CHL because they cost a fortune.

Second, wether they play junior here or in Russia, the KHL still has deep pockets and looms as a very viable option for Russian players. If it was a non factor Russians wouldn't drop in the draft every year, including Round 1(Cherepanov Tarasenko and Kuznetsov all dropped, just off the top of my head).

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05-08-2012, 12:41 PM
  #99
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the ctv report where MacKasey call Grigorenko a floater http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...MontrealSports

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05-08-2012, 12:47 PM
  #100
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Why would I have an axe to grind? I just want my favorite team to pick the best player in order for it to have success. I just don't see that player being Grigorenko at #3.

How is the KHL overblown when they end up getting about half(or more) of the Russians who should be in the NHL? If the KHL lost all it's lustre, why are Kuznetsov and Tarasenko staying there instead of coming to NA?

I'm sure most players would rather play for the Habs than KHL but once money enters the picture they change their minds. That's why Emelin stayed there 4 years and the two players mentionned above stayed, and Perezhogin left at 23.
It's the pressure exerted on the team to play Grigorenko whether he's good enough to make the team or not. If he's not going to make the team the first year, I doubt he'll sign his ELC. At the start of the second season unless he's gifted a 1st or 2nd line centre position by us trading DD and/or Pleks why would he sign here? So he can play a 3rd line checking role and earn his way up the roster?

Even if he doesn't threaten to go to the KHL, unless we give him a good position on the team I think he'll interpret it as being the Habs don't want him and that this isn't a good fit for him and the the KHL flight risk looms large.

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