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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 13.0

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Old
05-08-2012, 01:49 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Markov79fan View Post
the ctv report where MacKasey call Grigorenko a floater http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...MontrealSports
oof....he REALLY doesn't seem to like Grigorenko....unless he's trying to get him at #7?

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05-08-2012, 01:50 PM
  #102
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First, there are not a ton of Russians that caome paly CHL because they cost a fortune.

Second, wether they play junior here or in Russia, the KHL still has deep pockets and looms as a very viable option for Russian players. If it was a non factor Russians wouldn't drop in the draft every year, including Round 1(Cherepanov Tarasenko and Kuznetsov all dropped, just off the top of my head).
You still havent named any players drafted in the top 10 who bolted back to Russia after being drafted in the NHL.

Tarasenko already had a KHL contract and was being coached by his father. Never came to north America and never learned the language or style of play. Not to say he won't come, he just hasn't come over yet.

Kuznetsov is in the same category. Played in the KHL and is still under contract. Never came to north America and never learnt the language or style of play.

Grigorenko is a very different story. So let's compare apples to apples. The reason those players dropped so much is that they were already under KHL contracts and/or had no indication they'd want to come to the NHL to begin with. It's not to say they won't come as many times they end up coming back anyways if they're young enough. If they're older then chances are its too late for them in any case and they'll stay in Russia ie Morozov, Perez etc. not that any NHL team is pounding down the door to get them back here.

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05-08-2012, 01:52 PM
  #103
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oof....he REALLY doesn't seem to like Grigorenko....unless he's trying to get him at #7?
Maybe that's why he didn't get the job in Montreal.

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05-08-2012, 01:54 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Maybe that's why he didn't get the job in Montreal.
or, maybe it is....dun dun dunnnnnnnn

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05-08-2012, 02:03 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
You still havent named any players drafted in the top 10 who bolted back to Russia after being drafted in the NHL.

Tarasenko already had a KHL contract and was being coached by his father. Never came to north America and never learned the language or style of play. Not to say he won't come, he just hasn't come over yet.

Kuznetsov is in the same category. Played in the KHL and is still under contract. Never came to north America and never learnt the language or style of play.

Grigorenko is a very different story. So let's compare apples to apples. The reason those players dropped so much is that they were already under KHL contracts and/or had no indication they'd want to come to the NHL to begin with. It's not to say they won't come as many times they end up coming back anyways if they're young enough. If they're older then chances are its too late for them in any case and they'll stay in Russia ie Morozov, Perez etc. not that any NHL team is pounding down the door to get them back here.
Coming to Quebec to play junior doesn't suddenly make it a completely different story. Does it decrease the chances of him bolting or not signing with his NHL team? Yes, but doesn't eliminate the risk.

Radulov came to play junior and left for home cooking and big $$$. Filatov came over and when they assigned him to the AHL he bolted for the KHL twice.

Morozov could have surely helped any NHL team the last few years. We could have used Emelin 3-4 years ago.

Guys like Radulov Kuznetsov Tarasenko Cherepanov were all top 10 talents that slipped due to the "Russian factor". Zherdev is a guy who came and left and came back and left again.

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05-08-2012, 02:17 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Coming to Quebec to play junior doesn't suddenly make it a completely different story. Does it decrease the chances of him bolting or not signing with his NHL team? Yes, but doesn't eliminate the risk.

Radulov came to play junior and left for home cooking and big $$$. Filatov came over and when they assigned him to the AHL he bolted for the KHL twice.

Morozov could have surely helped any NHL team the last few years. We could have used Emelin 3-4 years ago.

Guys like Radulov Kuznetsov Tarasenko Cherepanov were all top 10 talents that slipped due to the "Russian factor". Zherdev is a guy who came and left and came back and left again.
Filatov would have stayed in the NHL had he been good enough to make the NHL. He didn't bolt from the NHL he bolted the AHL which is understandable given he likely wasn't going to crack the NHL and so why wouldn't he go back to Russia and make a tonne more money.

I already commented on Tarasenko and Kuznetsov so I won't do so already and Cherapanov was going to play for the Rangers and was happy to before he died.

Grigorenko once again, came here, learnt the laguage and the system when he didn't have to. That alone says he wants to play for the greatest league in the world. If he gets drafted and then can't crack an NHL lineup then I would expect him to go to Russia to make more money just like Brock Trotter did. Given his skill set and his ability to make an NHL lineup, why would he bolt after going through so much trouble!? He could have a KHL contract right now, be making more money and be comfortable in his home land. Instead, he moved his family to a foreign country to play Junior hockey and learnt English 5 days a week on top of playing hockey everyday. Doesn't sound like a flight risk to me.

Sorry to say but it sounds more like you WANT him to bolt to Russia than anything else. If money was the only factor why wouldnt Yakopov go back to Russia. Did you forget about him? I'd imagine he'd be able to make quite a bit more in the KHL than he would on an entry level contract yet you've never brought him up with the "Russian Factor" even though he'll go number 1 and hasnt' slipped in anyones opinion. Seems curious that you'd only single out a guy who's a spot or two behind him in the draft as a flight risk.

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05-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Filatov would have stayed in the NHL had he been good enough to make the NHL. He didn't bolt from the NHL he bolted the AHL which is understandable given he likely wasn't going to crack the NHL and so why wouldn't he go back to Russia and make a tonne more money.

I already commented on Tarasenko and Kuznetsov so I won't do so already and Cherapanov was going to play for the Rangers and was happy to before he died.

Grigorenko once again, came here, learnt the laguage and the system when he didn't have to. That alone says he wants to play for the greatest league in the world. If he gets drafted and then can't crack an NHL lineup then I would expect him to go to Russia to make more money just like Brock Trotter did. Given his skill set and his ability to make an NHL lineup, why would he bolt after going through so much trouble!? He could have a KHL contract right now, be making more money and be comfortable in his home land. Instead, he moved his family to a foreign country to play Junior hockey and learnt English 5 days a week on top of playing hockey everyday. Doesn't sound like a flight risk to me.

Sorry to say but it sounds more like you WANT him to bolt to Russia than anything else. If money was the only factor why wouldnt Yakopov go back to Russia. Did you forget about him? I'd imagine he'd be able to make quite a bit more in the KHL than he would on an entry level contract yet you've never brought him up with the "Russian Factor" even though he'll go number 1 and hasnt' slipped in anyones opinion. Seems curious that you'd only single out a guy who's a spot or two behind him in the draft as a flight risk.
This. I really think the Habs should take Grigorenko... Markov would take him under his wing and he would develop and be a Habs superstar.. I can feel it!!

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05-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #108
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I agree that the KHL factor is minimal in Grigo's case. Anyone who wants to use that against him is grasping at straws. There are many things you can point out that are flawed about him, but he's a young guy. There's no doubt he's a top talent in this draft. He's not my favorite prospect, and I don't think he would be my choice at #3, but the whole KHL thing is silly.

If he's good enough to play in the NHL, he will. You can always point out at Radulov as an example of a guy good enough to play in the NHL that bolted back, but he's pretty much the only "star" that did that. Otherwise, it was mostly fringe NHL players with some potential. If Grigo belongs in the latter category (we won't know until a few years after the draft), he would be a bad pick at #3, KHL or not.

And even if you want to go on a tangent about Radulov opening a can of worms, that someone could follow steps, this past off season has shed some light on his character and determination. If Grigorenko has those traits, I would once again stay away from him at #3.

It has nothing to do with his nationality though. In the end, you don't only look at talent. You gotta pick a guy with something between the ears too.

Just a quick edit: the fact that Grigorenko came over to NA, learned the language and played away from his family is commendable. Definitely some pluses, in my opinion.

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05-08-2012, 02:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Filatov would have stayed in the NHL had he been good enough to make the NHL. He didn't bolt from the NHL he bolted the AHL which is understandable given he likely wasn't going to crack the NHL and so why wouldn't he go back to Russia and make a tonne more money.

I already commented on Tarasenko and Kuznetsov so I won't do so already and Cherapanov was going to play for the Rangers and was happy to before he died.

Grigorenko once again, came here, learnt the laguage and the system when he didn't have to. That alone says he wants to play for the greatest league in the world. If he gets drafted and then can't crack an NHL lineup then I would expect him to go to Russia to make more money just like Brock Trotter did. Given his skill set and his ability to make an NHL lineup, why would he bolt after going through so much trouble!? He could have a KHL contract right now, be making more money and be comfortable in his home land. Instead, he moved his family to a foreign country to play Junior hockey and learnt English 5 days a week on top of playing hockey everyday. Doesn't sound like a flight risk to me.

Sorry to say but it sounds more like you WANT him to bolt to Russia than anything else. If money was the only factor why wouldnt Yakopov go back to Russia. Did you forget about him? I'd imagine he'd be able to make quite a bit more in the KHL than he would on an entry level contract yet you've never brought him up with the "Russian Factor" even though he'll go number 1 and hasnt' slipped in anyones opinion. Seems curious that you'd only single out a guy who's a spot or two behind him in the draft as a flight risk.
So you don't see the fact that they can't send him to the AHL at 20 if they feel he needs more seasoning? The Pacioretty example is a good one, he finally developped after they send him down and left him there for a half year.

The KHL doesn't pay a fortune to 17 year olds, they pay the big bucks to guys that can play on the top line. At 17 Grigorenko probably makes as much or more playing for the Remparts than he would in the KHL. However at 20-21-22+ then it becomes an option.

What you seem to be missing here is that a lot of players have bumps in the road in their development and need AHL seasoning but then you lose the player when he bolts.

Burmistrov was drafted early and would have normally been sent back but they kept him I'm sure at least in part for fear of seding him down.

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05-08-2012, 02:54 PM
  #110
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I keep saying it but don't expect Grigs to go top 5, I have him going to Anaheim at the earliest unless Burke gets over his dislike towards Russian prospects.

EDM and CBS pass MTL will definitely pass NYI needs D, Burke is not a big fan of Russians, Anaheim isn't either but a 2nd line center is a huge need over there so he is a possibility, MIN obviously passes from what we hear, Canes also need a second line center but I doubt they pick, doesn't fit the brand they play. Winnipeg is a possibility, and so is Washington at 11.

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05-08-2012, 03:05 PM
  #111
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Great read on Michael Matheson who i think would be a heck of a pick at 33 for the habs

http://www.ushl.com/news.php?action=detail&news_id=970

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05-08-2012, 03:30 PM
  #112
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[QUOTE=Carey Price;49443717]So you don't see the fact that they can't send him to the AHL at 20 if they feel he needs more seasoning? The Pacioretty example is a good one, he finally developped after they send him down and left him there for a half year.

The KHL doesn't pay a fortune to 17 year olds, they pay the big bucks to guys that can play on the top line. At 17 Grigorenko probably makes as much or more playing for the Remparts than he would in the KHL. However at 20-21-22+ then it becomes an option.

What you seem to be missing here is that a lot of players have bumps in the road in their development and need AHL seasoning but then you lose the player when he bolts.

Burmistrov was drafted early and would have normally been sent back but they kept him I'm sure at least in part for fear of seding him down.[quote]

Same could be said for Yakopov or any other Russian prospect. PK is an example of a player who they kept up in the NHL evethough they could have left him in the AHL. It's possibly to manage a player in the NHL to help them keep developing. Besides, 2 more years in the minors/AHL before bringing him up can still go a long way. A case can be made for either one but I doubt a NHL team won't draft a player for this reason, especially one thats a top 3 talent wise.

On top of that, these players get interviewed and asked these questions before theyre drafted. Teams will ask their willingness to go to the AHL etc or if they're want to go back to Russia. Many players drop because they don't have a willingness to follow what the team wants or if theyre already in Russia. I don't think Grigs falls in this category nor does Yakopov. I also don't think it's fair to paint Grigs with a brush that he's shown on multiple occasions he's not like. He wants to play in the NHL, he's come here, he's learnt the language, he's saying all the right things, I don't really see a reason why you think he's being disingenuous.

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05-08-2012, 03:41 PM
  #113
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I would be happy with this...

1st Round - 3rd Overall - (C) Alex Galchenyuk - Sarnia (OHL)
2nd Round - 33rd Overall - (LW) Cristoval Nieves - Indiana (USHL)
2nd Round -53rd Overall (from Nasville) - (RW) Henrik Samuelsson - Edmonton (WHL)
3rd Round - 64th Overall - (D) Dillon Fournier - Rouyn-Noranda (QMJHL)
4th Round - 94th Overall - (RW) Branden Troock - Seattle (WHL)
6th Round - 154th Overall - (LW) Raphael Bussieres - Baie-Comeau (QMJHL)

Lukas Sutter is also very interesting as is Chandler Stephenson.

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05-08-2012, 03:43 PM
  #114
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I would be happy with this...

1st Round - 3rd Overall - (C) Alex Galchenyuk - Sarnia (OHL)
2nd Round - 33rd Overall - (LW) Cristoval Nieves - Indiana (USHL)
2nd Round -53rd Overall (from Nasville) - (RW) Henrik Samuelsson - Edmonton (WHL)
3rd Round - 64th Overall - (D) Dillon Fournier - Rouyn-Noranda (QMJHL)
4th Round - 94th Overall - (RW) Branden Troock - Seattle (WHL)
6th Round - 154th Overall - (LW) Raphael Bussieres - Baie-Comeau (QMJHL)

Lukas Sutter is also very interesting as is Chandler Stephenson.
Change Alex for Forsberg or Murray and im all for it. And maybe change Boo for Thrower

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05-08-2012, 03:50 PM
  #115
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Same could be said for Yakopov or any other Russian prospect. PK is an example of a player who they kept up in the NHL evethough they could have left him in the AHL. It's possibly to manage a player in the NHL to help them keep developing. Besides, 2 more years in the minors/AHL before bringing him up can still go a long way. A case can be made for either one but I doubt a NHL team won't draft a player for this reason, especially one thats a top 3 talent wise.

On top of that, these players get interviewed and asked these questions before theyre drafted. Teams will ask their willingness to go to the AHL etc or if they're want to go back to Russia. Many players drop because they don't have a willingness to follow what the team wants or if theyre already in Russia. I don't think Grigs falls in this category nor does Yakopov. I also don't think it's fair to paint Grigs with a brush that he's shown on multiple occasions he's not like. He wants to play in the NHL, he's come here, he's learnt the language, he's saying all the right things, I don't really see a reason why you think he's being disingenuous.
It's a factor for Yakupov also, but minimized a bit because he is more polished and probably ready to step in to a regular role next yaer and chip in 20-25 goals.

What somebody says in an interview doesn't always reflect reality once things go a bit sour with their NHL teams, or development stalls a bit and all of a sudden a 3-4 mil offer comes from back home. Russia will always be home, there will always be ice time there and money is always money.

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05-08-2012, 04:02 PM
  #116
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Great read on Michael Matheson who i think would be a heck of a pick at 33 for the habs

http://www.ushl.com/news.php?action=detail&news_id=970
Matheson or Fournier?

If the difference isn't that big, shouldn't the Habs take a flyer on a high ceiling forward and Fournier with the second 2nd rounder?

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05-08-2012, 04:10 PM
  #117
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It's a factor for Yakupov also, but minimized a bit because he is more polished and probably ready to step in to a regular role next yaer and chip in 20-25 goals.

What somebody says in an interview doesn't always reflect reality once things go a bit sour with their NHL teams, or development stalls a bit and all of a sudden a 3-4 mil offer comes from back home. Russia will always be home, there will always be ice time there and money is always money.
But again, this has never happened to anyone that I know of, ranked this high.

I've asked you multiple times if you know of any Russian player drafted in the top 10 where your "Russian Factor" was an issue and you still haven't answered. That leads me to believe that it hasn't happened in the past and the odds if it happening to Grigs is extremely low. You may as well predict he'll have a heart attack on the ice or get in to a motorcylce accident and die before making it to the NHL. At least then you'd have some odds in your favour because as of now it's at 0%.

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05-08-2012, 04:17 PM
  #118
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Matheson or Fournier?

If the difference isn't that big, shouldn't the Habs take a flyer on a high ceiling forward and Fournier with the second 2nd rounder?
I think there could be steaks on defense and in goal in the 2nd round, simply because the draft is much deeper at those positions plus some teams will draft for need, letting 1st round d-men perhaps slide into round 2

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05-08-2012, 04:22 PM
  #119
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But again, this has never happened to anyone that I know of, ranked this high.

I've asked you multiple times if you know of any Russian player drafted in the top 10 where your "Russian Factor" was an issue and you still haven't answered. That leads me to believe that it hasn't happened in the past and the odds if it happening to Grigs is extremely low. You may as well predict he'll have a heart attack on the ice or get in to a motorcylce accident and die before making it to the NHL. At least then you'd have some odds in your favour because as of now it's at 0%.
Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't, it's just a miniscule sampling of data. The KHL has only been around for 4 years. Just by drafting a guy top 10 it won't prevent what happened to Cherepanov Tarasenko Radlov and Kuznetsov from happening.

NHL GM's are not idiots, they are paid to do what we talk about daily...so they won't let a better player slide unless they have a REAL GOOD reason to do it. They didn't let guys like Tarasenko Filatov Cherepanov Kuznetsov slide just because they had bad teeth...

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05-08-2012, 04:23 PM
  #120
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with Nashville losing, the Devils pick possibly forfeited, and at least two teams jumping past the Preds to the Conference finals, the 2nd 2nd should be somewhere in the range of #50. Hooray! Plus Kostitsyn and Gill are gone! Yay!

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05-08-2012, 04:35 PM
  #121
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[QUOTE=Mars0987;49446357]I would be happy with this...

1st Round - 3rd Overall - (C) Alex Galchenyuk - Sarnia (OHL)
2nd Round - 33rd Overall - (LW) Cristoval Nieves - Indiana (USHL)
2nd Round -53rd Overall (from Nasville) - (RW) Henrik Samuelsson - Edmonton (WHL)
3rd Round - 64th Overall - (D) Dillon Fournier - Rouyn-Noranda (QMJHL)
4th Round - 94th Overall - (RW) Branden Troock - Seattle (WHL)
6th Round - 154th Overall - (LW) Raphael Bussieres - Baie-Comeau (QMJHL)


**I think he will go higher then that

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05-08-2012, 04:39 PM
  #122
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What kind of player is Nieves??

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05-08-2012, 04:39 PM
  #123
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with Nashville losing, the Devils pick possibly forfeited, and at least two teams jumping past the Preds to the Conference finals, the 2nd 2nd should be somewhere in the range of #50. Hooray! Plus Kostitsyn and Gill are gone! Yay!
A guy like Ebert could be a steal at 48-50. He had 41 points as a 16 year old in the OHL but showed up out of shape and has had a down year. A bit of a risk but if he's learned his lesson and is a good kid, could be like getting an early/mid 1st round talent at 50.

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05-08-2012, 04:40 PM
  #124
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Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't, it's just a miniscule sampling of data. The KHL has only been around for 4 years. Just by drafting a guy top 10 it won't prevent what happened to Cherepanov Tarasenko Radlov and Kuznetsov from happening.

NHL GM's are not idiots, they are paid to do what we talk about daily...so they won't let a better player slide unless they have a REAL GOOD reason to do it. They didn't let guys like Tarasenko Filatov Cherepanov Kuznetsov slide just because they had bad teeth...
I agree with you there. I think the fact it hasn't happened is a testament to GM's doing their job and not drafting players who wouldn't come to the NHL, that's why it's never happened to highly drafted players.

That being said, until Grigs IS drafted, I think is foolhardy to assume he won't play in North America. The fact he took the hard decision to come here and integrate himself shows otherwise. You're assertion that "it could happen" doesn't really hold much water. I can say that about ANY player out there. What if a KHL team offered Galchenyuk $5M per to play in Russia. IT COULD HAPPEN.

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05-08-2012, 04:41 PM
  #125
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Most top 10 drafted Russians were drafted because they were good enough to be NHL players right away. Grigorenko is not Malkin or Yakupov, his skating and overall game are not at the same level and if he struggles, especially in a market like Montreal where fans might turn on him when they see a 6'3" guy isn't the power forward hero they think he is, you got to imagine the KHL becomes something he will at least consider. Who wouldn't?

Though for the record I think the primary reason not to take Grigorenko is just because there are better options. Grigorenko is a nice player with Spezza like upside, but I think there's better options for what the Habs need at this time.

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