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Flames Rebuild

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Old
05-08-2012, 02:10 PM
  #51
Angelus*
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Originally Posted by The Gnome View Post
Exactly delusional oiler fan, they won a god damn cup! The Oilers have doen nothing but stink up the basement for the past 5 years.

When the Oilers win cup or come close then you can look at them as a successful rebuild. Only on HF would someone use the Oilers as successful rebuild at this time. FML
From 2007-2009 the Oilers tried to make the playoff. The latter two years they were flirted with a playoff spot and just missed out.

It wasn't until they drafted Hall and a rebuild was forced upon them that they conceded one was needed. If they had started rebuilding after the playoff run instead of prolonging the inevitable with stop gaps and quick fixes it would be over by now.

Moreover, Flames ownership loves the revenue the Flames brings in, if they were a lottery team instead of a borderline bubble team revenues and attendance would plummet. Don't pretend it's a market like Edmonton where sellouts are guaranteed every game no matter how badly the team stinks, Calgarians are much more fickle than that. Ownership knows this, thus no rebuild.

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05-08-2012, 02:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Chicago had more than a scorched Earth rebuild. They also got extremely lucky with cap structure, trades, and FA acquisition:

Bolland at 32nd overall.
Hossa acquired as free agent.
Duncan Keith at 54th overall.
Brent Seabrook at 14th overall.
Versteeg for Brandon Bochenski.
Patrick Sharp for Matt Ellison.
Byfuglien at 245th overall.

Then Chicago happened to be able to fit all those players under the cap for one year before having to dismantle. And yes they drafted Kane and Toews in the top 3.

But it wasn't just the rebuild. In fact, relying on a the "Rebuild" is a huge gamble. Odds are you won't draft Crosby. Odds are you won't have the luck that Chicago did in acquiring players elsewhere. Much better to create an atmosphere of winnign and use strong asset management.
Well done sir - prime example of how development and drafting overall is just as important, if not more important, than a scorched earth rebuild

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05-08-2012, 02:16 PM
  #53
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Wow, Flames fans are buying what Feaster's selling it seems. Good luck vying valiantly for 8th and almost making it every year.

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05-08-2012, 02:17 PM
  #54
Beendair Donedat
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
Chicago took the better part of a decade to fix their team, and I don't know of them selling off players to get worse, they were just a bad team that bottomed out.

Pittsburgh won a lottery to get the best player in the world.

Edmonton has not shown its worth it in any way what so ever.
Pittsburgh also picked up a couple guys named Fleury, Staal and Malkin during their tank years. Those guys are all right as well.

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05-08-2012, 02:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Much of those rating were made at the beginning of last year, and punished Calgary for having no top end offensive talent. Things have changed a lot during the last year.

Baertschi has emerged as arguably the best player in North American juniors. The Flames have acquired Cervenka. Irving, Holland, Brodie, and Ferland all took huge steps forward.

At the beginning of the year it looked like the Flames would be relying on Wahl and Nemisz, and, yes, things looked pretty hopeless. A lot has changed in the last year and the Flames don't need to blow it up anymore.
That sounds nice, and in the absence of my own detailed research that does sound like a measurable improvement of significance... but I'm not seeing how that catapults Calgary from "bottom 5" to "comparable to Edmonton and Ottawa near the top of the league".

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05-08-2012, 02:29 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
Wow, Flames fans are buying what Feaster's selling it seems. Good luck vying valiantly for 8th and almost making it every year.
Yea we should be hating the honesty and youth movement he has brought and should be calling for his head

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05-08-2012, 02:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
I highly doubt that Jarome Iginla wants to retire without a Stanley Cup. Every player goes into the NHL to win the ultimate prize.
And every player knows the parity in the league makes it impossible to just join a contender and get one.

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05-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #58
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This thread happens over and over and over and over. Non-Flames fans or fans of teams who've been absolutely terrible want vindication for their "method" and want another fanbase to go through what they went through.

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05-08-2012, 02:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Pittsburgh also picked up a couple guys named Fleury, Staal and Malkin during their tank years. Those guys are all right as well.
yeah I am well aware of who else they have, but do you think they would have won the Cup with Crosby?

The success of their scorched earth rebuild is judged on Cup wins and finals appearances. Personally with the problems they have had reaching the finals since they won, I wouldn't bank on them having any finals appearances without Crosby.

Even if they would have won without him, the failures of full rebuilds far outweigh the successful ones.

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05-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by nik- View Post
fans of teams who've been absolutely terrible want vindication for their "method" and want another fanbase to go through what they went through.
Couldn't be further from the truth. I hope the Flames keep finishing 9th and drafting 14th. We don't want the Flames to get a Yakupov or MacKinnon.

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05-08-2012, 03:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
That sounds nice, and in the absence of my own detailed research that does sound like a measurable improvement of significance... but I'm not seeing how that catapults Calgary from "bottom 5" to "comparable to Edmonton and Ottawa near the top of the league".
ughh... call me when you actually win something. Watching the Flames surge for that last playoff spot was extremely entertaining as a fan. I have no intention of ever cheering for my team to reach last place.

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05-08-2012, 03:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Angelus View Post
From 2007-2009 the Oilers tried to make the playoff. The latter two years they were flirted with a playoff spot and just missed out.

It wasn't until they drafted Hall and a rebuild was forced upon them that they conceded one was needed. If they had started rebuilding after the playoff run instead of prolonging the inevitable with stop gaps and quick fixes it would be over by now.

Moreover, Flames ownership loves the revenue the Flames brings in, if they were a lottery team instead of a borderline bubble team revenues and attendance would plummet. Don't pretend it's a market like Edmonton where sellouts are guaranteed every game no matter how badly the team stinks, Calgarians are much more fickle than that. Ownership knows this, thus no rebuild.
how does this lend any merit to the fact that the Oilers are failing miserably and have been for a while now. Yup the Oilers sure have done a successful rebuild, congrats.

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05-08-2012, 03:27 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
Wow, Flames fans are buying what Feaster's selling it seems. Good luck vying valiantly for 8th and almost making it every year.
Feaster didn't have a fair chance this year. He was stuck with a horrible mess left with Sutter.

So far he's done a great job of drafting, moving out bad contracts, and picking up young players from non conventional sources.

Obviously, the proof is in the pudding, and he hasn't accomplished anything so far, but he's done a great job of setting us up for the future.

Out: Hagman, Regehr, Langkow, Kotalik, Sarich, Hannan.

In: Baertschi, Cervenka, Aliu, Comeau, Brodie, etc...

With Baertschi and Cervenka hitting the Flames next year, they are injecting the equivalent of two top 5 picks into their lineup. So yeah, we like what Feaster is doing.

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Old
05-08-2012, 03:27 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
ughh... call me when you actually win something. Watching the Flames surge for that last playoff spot was extremely entertaining as a fan. I have no intention of ever cheering for my team to reach last place.
Ughh... call me when the Flames actually win something. Watching the Oilers acquire elite talent and build a future powerhouse is extremely entertaining as a fan. I have no intention of ever cheering for my team to reach 9th place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Feaster didn't have a fair chance this year. He was stuck with a horrible mess left with Sutter.

So far he's done a great job of drafting, moving out bad contracts, and picking up young players from non conventional sources.

Obviously, the proof is in the pudding, and he hasn't accomplished anything so far, but he's done a great job of setting us up for the future.

Out: Hagman, Regehr, Langkow, Kotalik, Sarich, Hannan.

In: Baertschi, Cervenka, Aliu, Comeau, Brodie, etc...

With Baertschi and Cervenka hitting the Flames next year, they are injecting the equivalent of two top 5 picks into their lineup. So yeah, we like what Feaster is doing.
You do realize Cervenka is 26 and already in his prime right?

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05-08-2012, 03:32 PM
  #65
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how does this lend any merit to the fact that the Oilers are failing miserably and have been for a while now. Yup the Oilers sure have done a successful rebuild, congrats.
The rebuild started with Taylor Hall. It's naive to think teams just bottom out for one season, then immediately start competing for the playoffs.

Besides, we all know this is just a cover for how hopeless a position the Flames are in right now, but if it helps you sleep better at night to rip on the Oilers have at it.

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05-08-2012, 03:34 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Watching the Oilers acquire elite talent is extremely entertaining as a fan.
"Elite talent"? Yakupov is just a scrub they would never trade Sven and 14th for, right Flames fans?

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05-08-2012, 03:46 PM
  #67
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Yakupov will be a great complement to the Oils talented youth.... as for trading Sven and a first for Yak, no thanks, I would rather build around a guy who is possibly closer to a Sakic or Zetteberg than a guy who is closer to a Yashin or Bure....

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05-08-2012, 03:49 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Angelus View Post
"Elite talent"? Yakupov is just a scrub they would never trade Sven and 14th for, right Flames fans?
What good is acquiring elite talent if you don't do anything useful with it? Edmonton's got an extremely talented young team, and they still can't win. Hopefully they get it together this year. It's going to look bad, once again, if they fail to make the playoffs for the seventh season in a row. Now is the time for their young guns to start carrying their team somewhere.

So far, we've seen Edmonton be one of the worst teams in the league since their playoff run. Nothing's changed in that department over the last six years. Hopefully Yakupov is everything you imagine him to be... Calgary's prospect base is nowhere near as bleak as you make it out to be.

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05-08-2012, 03:50 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post


You do realize Cervenka is 26 and already in his prime right?
Yes, and that's a benefit. We don't have to watch him develop. He's ready to go now. He's a guy who went from being 127lbs in his draft year to 200lbs now.

The fact you laugh at this is very telling. You act like there's some benefit to having floundering 19 year olds over players already playing well in their prime.

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05-08-2012, 03:58 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
ughh... call me when you actually win something. Watching the Flames surge for that last playoff spot was extremely entertaining as a fan. I have no intention of ever cheering for my team to reach last place.
Funny, that wasn't actually an answer to my question. As a reminder, that question was (paraphrased) "How do these improvements to developing prospects by themselves singlehandedly manage to catapult Calgary's prospect pool from 'bottom 5' to 'competitive with Edmonton and Ottawa at the top of the league'?" The implication is not that they're still bottom-5, but rather simply not competitive with the top of the league as is being asserted.

I'd prefer not to assume that you have no answer until after the third ad-hominem deflection, y'see.

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05-08-2012, 04:00 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by magnoctophas View Post
Umm, trading Iginla, Bouwmeester, and Kipper is a full scale rebuild...
did you even read the post you quoted? clearly didn't understand it...



Trading JBo-Kipper-Iginla doesn't by necessity require them to target only picks/prospects in return.

Flames could conceivably add established NHL talent in return, and potentially end up with a stronger roster despite moving all or some of those 3.

for example:

iginla to boston in a deal around Krecji
Kipper to Toronto (Schenn, Kulemin, Kadri, Colborne, Reimer as potential return(s)
JBo to St-Louis (Perron, Stewart, Allen, Elliot)

all a matter of what Feaster focuses on...

if he wanted the "re-build" route, than he'd taken picks/prospects as the main return, but if he wants a playoff team, then he could easily land quality players that could improve the depth and overall talent of the Flames roster.

last summer, people were scratching their heads left and right over the Flyers moving Carter/Richards, and while they got younger players in return, the guys they got have contributed as much or more (Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds) than they were getting out of the higher priced duo.

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05-08-2012, 04:28 PM
  #72
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Yes, and that's a benefit. We don't have to watch him develop. He's ready to go now. He's a guy who went from being 127lbs in his draft year to 200lbs now.

The fact you laugh at this is very telling. You act like there's some benefit to having floundering 19 year olds over players already playing well in their prime.
That's nice and all, but to compare him to a top-5 pick is crazy. He's one of those guys like Brunnstrom or Bozak, a "best player outside the NHL" guy that still hasn't demonstrated the high end talent that many top-5 picks demonstrate. Add in the fact that his game relies on open space (going to a more physical league) and the fact the he doesn't have any real experience on smaller ice surfaces and you can't expect a smooth transition. His English is also pretty lousy and that can't help.

But in the unlikely event that he pans out, he's 26. Signing him is not akin to a top-5 pick, its akin to a high risk, high reward Free agent signing. That's mostly because he'll be an UFA next offseason.

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05-08-2012, 04:39 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Funny, that wasn't actually an answer to my question. As a reminder, that question was (paraphrased) "How do these improvements to developing prospects by themselves singlehandedly manage to catapult Calgary's prospect pool from 'bottom 5' to 'competitive with Edmonton and Ottawa at the top of the league'?" The implication is not that they're still bottom-5, but rather simply not competitive with the top of the league as is being asserted.

I'd prefer not to assume that you have no answer until after the third ad-hominem deflection, y'see.
I don't think I ever said the Flames had better or equivalent prospects to Edmonton or Ottawa. I also don't know why you're brining up Ottawa. If anything, they are a great example of how to retool without a total rebuild and acquire a great prospect pool in the process.

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05-08-2012, 04:44 PM
  #74
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And every player knows the parity in the league makes it impossible to just join a contender and get one.
Unless you're Hossa.

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05-08-2012, 04:47 PM
  #75
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That's nice and all, but to compare him to a top-5 pick is crazy. He's one of those guys like Brunnstrom or Bozak, a "best player outside the NHL" guy that still hasn't demonstrated the high end talent that many top-5 picks demonstrate. Add in the fact that his game relies on open space (going to a more physical league) and the fact the he doesn't have any real experience on smaller ice surfaces and you can't expect a smooth transition. His English is also pretty lousy and that can't help.

But in the unlikely event that he pans out, he's 26. Signing him is not akin to a top-5 pick, its akin to a high risk, high reward Free agent signing. That's mostly because he'll be an UFA next offseason.
Cervenka is far more accomplished than Brunnstrom. Bozak was an exellent pickup. If you look at your average #5 overall draft pick, they work out, on average, about as well as Bozak has.

In fact, in Bozak's potential draft year, 2005, Gilbert Brule was chosen with the #5 pick. Bozak is better than Brule right now.

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