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Barry Trotz needs to be fired

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Old
05-08-2012, 08:18 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
So who do we hire?
A neck?

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05-08-2012, 08:28 AM
  #277
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Not sure I'm on the "Fire Trotz" train or not but the folks who support him make me want to be. You guys are worse than Trotz himself - nothing but excuses.

If you say we lost the Phoenix series because pucks bounced over sticks, then anyone can say we only beat Detroit because pucks bounced over sticks.

Did more or less pucks bounce over our sticks in this series than the previous one? Probably depends on who you ask.

Look, we were thoroughly beat and Trotz has an AWFUL postseason record...showing no signs of figuring much out over the past 10+ years. Honestly I can't say that I think we should fire him, but to put your head in the sand and avoid looking at any other possibilities is a bit naive.

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05-08-2012, 09:40 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I'm not on the "Fire Trotz" team, so I agree

My question was a challenge for discussion. If we fire Trotz, who do we hire? Why? What can we expect to change? Are those changes improvements?
Jaques Martin is available lol.

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05-08-2012, 09:47 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Basher View Post
If you say we lost the Phoenix series because pucks bounced over sticks, then anyone can say we only beat Detroit because pucks bounced over sticks.

Look, we were thoroughly beat and Trotz has an AWFUL postseason record...showing no signs of figuring much out over the past 10+ years. Honestly I can't say that I think we should fire him, but to put your head in the sand and avoid looking at any other possibilities is a bit naive.
I believe the point of "bouncing pucks" and such is that Trotz put the players in the position to be successful - he can't shoot if for them and can't control how it bounces - good or bad. It's a direct - and equally silly - point about saying he should be fired because Fish and Leggy aren't 1st line centers, or Klein makes bone-headed mistakes occasionally; Fish and Leggy are the best centers we have - unless you'd like to argue Spals and maybe we shoulda' kept Smithson - and Klein has skated 3rd pair when Gill is healthy and, again, unless you're gonna' make the argument that it would be a better decision to skate Hillen (or Ellis or Blum, I suppose) you can't say Trotz should be fired for skating the resources he has. Argue he should make them better if you'd like, but other than Leggy not scoring goals as much as any of us would like not sure that's a winning argument.

As for results - I would respectfully disagree. We built a team from scratch - so the first 5 years - pretty much throw away - you had to know we weren't getting those teams in the POs - by design we built the team through the draft and that's obviously gonna' take a few years. Since then - we've been one of the most successful teams in hockey. Poile and Trotz had the team poised to be pretty competitive and then the Liarpold disaster struck. So they rebuilt it again, and now we've gone into 2nd round twice, this year with the 2nd youngest team in the league - how exactly is that not progress?

Who would you hire that's available and why would you think they'd do a better job? Given we have a team that's been in the POs for 7 of last 8 years and into 2nd round the last 2 - plus totally rebuilt after the Liarpold disaster - I don't see what else the argument too can Trotz could be based on.

After all, it's about doing the most with the assets you have - isn't that the coaches job?

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05-08-2012, 09:56 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Basher View Post
Not sure I'm on the "Fire Trotz" train or not but the folks who support him make me want to be. You guys are worse than Trotz himself - nothing but excuses.

If you say we lost the Phoenix series because pucks bounced over sticks, then anyone can say we only beat Detroit because pucks bounced over sticks.

Did more or less pucks bounce over our sticks in this series than the previous one? Probably depends on who you ask.

Look, we were thoroughly beat and Trotz has an AWFUL postseason record...showing no signs of figuring much out over the past 10+ years. Honestly I can't say that I think we should fire him, but to put your head in the sand and avoid looking at any other possibilities is a bit naive.
QFT, Basher, I feel exactly the same way.

I like Trotz, feel that he is one of the better coaches in the game, and don't want him fired.

But the refusal for some on the board to even think about criticising Trotz/Poile is absurd. We've given him 2 supremely talented teams when he was here, and we've got a 1st round flameout and a second round pooping of the bed against what had been over the past year a far inferior team.

If we win, Trotz is a master coach. If we lose, it's all Erat's fault, or SK74's fault, or Klein's fault, blah blah blah.

At what point are we going to ask this guy to produce something more than a playoff disappointment?

At this point, the Trotz M.O. is a guy who can build a team, and squeeze potential out of a poor/mediocre team, but can't do jack in the playoffs.

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05-08-2012, 10:04 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
16 of 30 teams make the playoffs.. take away the bottom 5 teams which in my mind as long as poile as GM, we wont see regardless of the coach.. 16/25.. really imo we have a 60-70% of making the playoffs every year.. how could you not with weber/suter... and a stud goalie ever since 03-04 .. thanks mitch korn...

in almost 14 seasons... trotz has accomplished ...

0 division titles
0 president trophys
5 1st round exits
2 (?) second round exits
This is the is the first year I ever felt the team underachieved. And honestly, half of Trotz's tenure was with and expansion team. Do you honestly expect Barry Trotz to take an expansion team to a division title? You say he can win a title with the digested chicken feed that Scotty Bowmann couldn't turn into a champion and yet you want him fired. You unconsciously gave him a high complement and yet you scald him. Fact is this, Trotz is proving the old axiom; it's harder to coach a team with talent than a team with heart.

07 was a disappointment but I didn't feel it because Forsberg was a gamble and he was a gimp. this year was all in, the players were great, and a nice combo but they didn't get it done.

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05-08-2012, 10:12 AM
  #282
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Sure it was. How about the inability to win crucial faceoffs or bury chances was the problem? How about a team that plays their system to a tee.
nope. it was your stupid cookie

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05-08-2012, 10:21 AM
  #283
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I basically agree with all of this.

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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
My gripes about Trotz in this series...

Agreed with Fisher-SK. I think that line worked for a lot of the season...then it went stale. Splitting them up earlier would've been a good decision. In the Detroit series, I could understand Fisher on the top line, because I think his primary role was keeping Datsyuk in check, not scoring goals. SK plain didn't look like a first liner in these playoffs. He made a few heady defensive plays...but that was about the extent of it. I would've dropped him to the third line.

My other big complaint: Brandon Yip. Yes, he plays hard. He plays the Trotz way. But he's not perfect. How did he manage to play in all 10 games? I think rotating Halischuk, Tootoo, Smith, and yes, Colin Wilson, from the beginning would've been the right move. Keep the guys hungry. Yip did not play poorly...but other guys deserved a chance. And Yip on the power play? What in the holy **** was that? Gaustad (who only played on the PP in this last game -- at the end) makes sense...because he can win you a draw and then head to the net. But Yip? That's the definition of just putting a body out there.

In hindsight, I do think he sat Colin Wilson for too long...and Wilson wasn't really able to get moving until the end. But perhaps both him and Wilson will learn something from this. If Wilson gives the effort next season, Trotz should reward him by playing him alongside Erat. If he can adopt a true center role, and play defense as a center, he could anchor one of the top 2 lines. Just learn to give the effort you have in the past few games in every game. Erat-Wilson-Radulov could have a lot of potential.
In other posts i've suggested that we didn't use our depth to our advantage and I still think it's the truth. The goal that Wilson scored last night would not be scored by many players on our team except Rads, and maybe erat and Andei occasionally. For Rads to be successful, he needs to be paired with players that can shoot quickly and accurately. Any other pairing just is a complete waste. Legwand on his line is a complete mistake.

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05-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #284
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QFT, Basher, I feel exactly the same way.

I like Trotz, feel that he is one of the better coaches in the game, and don't want him fired.

But the refusal for some on the board to even think about criticising Trotz/Poile is absurd. We've given him 2 supremely talented teams when he was here, and we've got a 1st round flameout and a second round pooping of the bed against what had been over the past year a far inferior team.

If we win, Trotz is a master coach. If we lose, it's all Erat's fault, or SK74's fault, or Klein's fault, blah blah blah.

At what point are we going to ask this guy to produce something more than a playoff disappointment?

At this point, the Trotz M.O. is a guy who can build a team, and squeeze potential out of a poor/mediocre team, but can't do jack in the playoffs.
We will continue to be good enough to make the playoffs then disappointed with early exits with guys like Legwand,SK, and Horny on the top 2 lines. Im sorry but they are just not the players to be taking up top 6 spots.

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05-08-2012, 12:11 PM
  #285
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If ownership truly does open up the wallets this summer and we can bring in some good (better) talent and we still can't make any steps forward then Trotz should start to be questioned. But that's something we don't know yet. Also, it's extremely frustrating and unfortunate that Mike Smith is the reason this series is over right now, plain and simple, and people are calling for a possible coaching change as if we're Columbus when that wasn't the real issue.

Game 1 we outplayed them in the second half of that game. Badly actually. It still amazes me how we didn't win that game, and if I recall correctly, many of us weren't too down about it because we did in fact play so well.

Game 2 was game 2. We all know what happened so not much needs to be said.

Game 3 we came out and established our game, and subsequently outplayed them. Couple lucky goals possibly but when a goalie is playing like that you have to take what you can. We deserved those goals.

Game 4 we outplayed them again for the most part, don't really care what others might say. It's again astonishing that we didn't make it to overtime at the VERY LEAST. A terrible blown whistle didn't help the cause, and yet again....neither did Mike Smith.

Game 5 last night we again outplayed them and had basically nothing to show for it. We came out firing and put a lot of pressure on their defense and Smith, but of course to no avail. Many parts of last night were like Game 1 for us. Lots of pressure but nothing past him.

I mention this because it's fine to question the coaching and whatnot when the situation calls for it. If game 2 would've been a microcosm of the whole series, even I, a Trotz apologist might entertain the idea of warming up his seat but I don't think he deserves that. I think looking back, his team really did play well for much of the series, and the fact that Smith consistently stood on his head makes our performances look worse than they were. Sure, you've "gotta get it done" but how many times have other elite teams simply not been able to get it done because a goalie gets hot and leads his team right through the playoffs, knocking off better teams along the way? Quite frequently.

We've been one of those unfortunate teams this year and it's a shame it ended this way.

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05-08-2012, 12:23 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
If ownership truly does open up the wallets this summer and we can bring in some good (better) talent and we still can't make any steps forward then Trotz should start to be questioned. But that's something we don't know yet. Also, it's extremely frustrating and unfortunate that Mike Smith is the reason this series is over right now, plain and simple, and people are calling for a possible coaching change as if we're Columbus when that wasn't the real issue.

Game 1 we outplayed them in the second half of that game. Badly actually. It still amazes me how we didn't win that game, and if I recall correctly, many of us weren't too down about it because we did in fact play so well.

Game 2 was game 2. We all know what happened so not much needs to be said.

Game 3 we came out and established our game, and subsequently outplayed them. Couple lucky goals possibly but when a goalie is playing like that you have to take what you can. We deserved those goals.

Game 4 we outplayed them again for the most part, don't really care what others might say. It's again astonishing that we didn't make it to overtime at the VERY LEAST. A terrible blown whistle didn't help the cause, and yet again....neither did Mike Smith.

Game 5 last night we again outplayed them and had basically nothing to show for it. We came out firing and put a lot of pressure on their defense and Smith, but of course to no avail. Many parts of last night were like Game 1 for us. Lots of pressure but nothing past him.

I mention this because it's fine to question the coaching and whatnot when the situation calls for it. If game 2 would've been a microcosm of the whole series, even I, a Trotz apologist might entertain the idea of warming up his seat but I don't think he deserves that. I think looking back, his team really did play well for much of the series, and the fact that Smith consistently stood on his head makes our performances look worse than they were. Sure, you've "gotta get it done" but how many times have other elite teams simply not been able to get it done because a goalie gets hot and leads his team right through the playoffs, knocking off better teams along the way? Quite frequently.

We've been one of those unfortunate teams this year and it's a shame it ended this way.
Mike Smith is nothing special. No one is getting good chances at him because the yotes are playing great D. When it was one on one he got deked out of his jock strap and he made several mistakes in which we did not bury. LA will blow them away because they have the talent on the top 2 lines to make him pay.

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05-08-2012, 12:34 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Mike Smith is nothing special. No one is getting good chances at him because the yotes are playing great D. When it was one on one he got deked out of his jock strap and he made several mistakes in which we did not bury. LA will blow them away because they have the talent on the top 2 lines to make him pay.
Mike Smith has been nothing special in the past, it's pretty clear that he's a very good goalie at the present time. He is always in good position, uses his size to a huge advantage, and while he does get helped by his defense, they weren't good enough to keep us from having consistent pressure on him many times in the series. If you have a goalie playing well, you always have a chance to steal games. See Nashville Predators 1998-present.

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05-08-2012, 12:44 PM
  #288
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Mike Smith has been nothing special in the past, it's pretty clear that he's a very good goalie at the present time. He is always in good position, uses his size to a huge advantage, and while he does get helped by his defense, they weren't good enough to keep us from having consistent pressure on him many times in the series. If you have a goalie playing well, you always have a chance to steal games. See Nashville Predators 1998-present.
He made to many dumb mistakes in the series against the Preds. He is lucky we did not make him pay everytime. He gave up how many 2? goals to the hawks with seconds left on the clock?? His defense is making him look a lot better than what he really is. Watch LA is going to crash the zone, take shots, actually hit the net with shots instead of shooting wide, high, or fanning, and destory him.

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05-08-2012, 01:33 PM
  #289
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Coming in peace as a fan who really likes the Preds.

I have watched enough Preds hockey over the years. He is one of a very few coaches who makes visible tweaks to his system to optimize performance. He does do offensive tweaks which is rare, not some conservative with a stick up his backside who just gets more defensive. Some of his tweaks are unique which is a very high compliment. They actually discipline players with no one being immune. If anything the fault lies in the drafting and keeping enough forwards with serious hands and puck control (A fault of the Sharks as well). Effectively Radulov and Erat and they aren't top of class leaguewide. His track record for turning prospects into players desired by other teams is well above average. Their track record on W/L and playoffs exceeds all 3 of the other teams in their expansion group by a country mile with Minnesota being closest. He has a track record of chasing down teams that have the Preds number and turning it around over the years (another high compliment). A trademark (and a benchmark for GMs to evaluate coaches) of good coaching is PP and PK numbers, Trotz shines.

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05-08-2012, 01:54 PM
  #290
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I've posted a thread on the main boards about this. Im curious to see what outsiders think.

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05-08-2012, 02:26 PM
  #291
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I've posted a thread on the main boards about this. Im curious to see what outsiders think.
They're going to think this is a stupid thread.

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05-08-2012, 02:33 PM
  #292
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I'm not even an "outsider" and I think it's a stupid thread. Most teams would sell their souls to get a coach of Trotz' caliber. In my opinion, this is simply an emotional, non-logical response to a loss. Sometimes, the players just lose and it has nothing at all to do with poor coaching. Gimme a break.

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05-08-2012, 02:34 PM
  #293
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Keep him! I want to see the long tenure streak continue. It's refreshing to see as a coach myself, and in this day and age where the coach is blamed for EVERYTHING.

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05-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #294
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I'm not even an "outsider" and I think it's a stupid thread. Most teams would sell their souls to get a coach of Trotz' caliber. In my opinion, this is simply an emotional, non-logical response to a loss. Sometimes, the players just lose and it has nothing at all to do with poor coaching. Gimme a break.
This.

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05-08-2012, 03:38 PM
  #295
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This is the is the first year I ever felt the team underachieved. And honestly, half of Trotz's tenure was with and expansion team. Do you honestly expect Barry Trotz to take an expansion team to a division title? You say he can win a title with the digested chicken feed that Scotty Bowmann couldn't turn into a champion and yet you want him fired. You unconsciously gave him a high complement and yet you scald him. Fact is this, Trotz is proving the old axiom; it's harder to coach a team with talent than a team with heart.

07 was a disappointment but I didn't feel it because Forsberg was a gamble and he was a gimp. this year was all in, the players were great, and a nice combo but they didn't get it done.
it is a compliment to trotz. he's done well here but not great. im honestly leaning to a personnel change before trotz (sk, fisher, leggy, ect)..

bottomline, we always hear of how successful we have been since the lockout. we have made the playoffs 6 times since the lockout.. 13 of 30 NHL franchises have made the playoffs 5+ times.. so really nothing special.

12 of those 13 franchises have either won a division title or have made conference finals appearances. we are the only team not to have achieved either.

we are good nowhere near great.. and this summer marks a huge weight on this franchise (dont they all).. we have to be better than good. something has to be improved.. whether it be personnel or the coaching staff

doing the same things expecting different results is insanity.... or however the quote goes

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05-08-2012, 04:06 PM
  #296
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Sometimes nothing needs to be done as far as changing people. Sometimes, you just need to play better with the same guys. Sometimes the puck doesn't bounce your way. No need to clean house here. That said, we will definitely end up changing personnel this offseason simply because of the amount of RFAs and UFAs we have.

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05-08-2012, 04:13 PM
  #297
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Sometimes nothing needs to be done as far as changing people. Sometimes, you just need to play better with the same guys. Sometimes the puck doesn't bounce your way. No need to clean house here. That said, we will definitely end up changing personnel this offseason simply because of the amount of RFAs and UFAs we have.
oh definitely not cleaning house.. but maybe a few names come or go. who knows, poile has the pulse of the players. I'm confident he will make the right moves.

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05-08-2012, 04:43 PM
  #298
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Trotz is 19-41 in the post season. That's not going to get it done.

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05-08-2012, 05:04 PM
  #299
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Five missed playoffs, five one and dones, three second round exits ... Trotz? No. Jack Adams, the guy the coach of the year trophy is named for. That was in an 8-10 team league were up to 75% of the teams made the playoffs.

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05-08-2012, 05:16 PM
  #300
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Trotz is 19-41 in the post season. That's not going to get it done.
John Tortorella has 33 playoff losses and Lindy Ruff bats .564 in the postseason. What can you do?

Seriously. What coach currently on the market is an improvement over Trotz? Sutter? No, he's awful. Jacques "career .462 winning percentage in the postseason" Martin?

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