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Flames Rebuild

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Old
05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
That's nice and all, but to compare him to a top-5 pick is crazy. He's one of those guys like Brunnstrom or Bozak, a "best player outside the NHL" guy that still hasn't demonstrated the high end talent that many top-5 picks demonstrate. Add in the fact that his game relies on open space (going to a more physical league) and the fact the he doesn't have any real experience on smaller ice surfaces and you can't expect a smooth transition. His English is also pretty lousy and that can't help.

But in the unlikely event that he pans out, he's 26. Signing him is not akin to a top-5 pick, its akin to a high risk, high reward Free agent signing. That's mostly because he'll be an UFA next offseason.
I agree with almost everything, except Cervenka is not a high risk, its a 1 year ELC, with $2 million of his bonuses being for major awards. if Cervenka struggles badly he has a 2way deal

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05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
What could the flames get for

Jarome Iginla
Miikka Kiprusoff
Jay Bouwmeester
Olli Jokinen


?
if i was to rebuild the flames... id start with an understanding of the long term plans. this is a team able to spend to the cap. its a team with a knowledgable fan base that could sit through a rebuild if they had a clear understanding of where it was headed. and in the long run, its a place where alot of guys would take a hometown discount to hang out if the team becomes a winner.

with that thinking... id just send everything that isnt nailed to the floor out the door for as many good picks/prospects as i could get. id even take picks from next draft if teams arent willing to part with ones from this draft cause the rebuild will take awhile.

id include giordano/tanguay too

i wouldnt trade camerelli... mostly cause i dont think hes worth alot outside of calgary but is worth more in calgary. let him be the one guy that sticks around and rolls up a ton of points on a bad team then deal him later when his contract is less bad and hes coming off a good year.

as for where everyone would end up... put it to a bidding war and let the market decide.

then when the dust settles id basement bargain hunt the ufa market and offer one year deals to guys that are coming off crap seasons. guys like that let you finish the year with a great draft choice for your own sucking but also some of them bounce back and become very valuable at the draft deadline.

like a dominek moore for example... giving him an extra 200k more then anyone else is offering and you get a servicable third line guy that sucks so you can dress 18 warm body skaters but then at deadline time someone is desperate for a center and gives you a second rounder for him.

fill most the team with guys like this... one year deals...

and to make sure you stay at the cap minimum, throw some big money offers to ahl vets and stack your ahl team. let it win a championship or two while your parent team is in rebuild mold and that way your kids get some winning experience playing with the stacked team down there.

if this plan of mine is carried out... thered be a ton of turnover at the top level for 2-3 years and most of the current team would have to be gone by the time you emerge at the end of it, but there would be a couple young kids like bartchi and brody getting into the young prime of their careers. maybe irving too? then youd have a whole ton of younger guys that had a good exerience in the ahl ready to join. and youd have sooooooooo much cap room to bring in some quality ufa too or do a trade for a top cap dump or two from the competition.

florida showed this year that its not always bad idea to take some cap dumps if the guys can actually play.

the team turns around overnight with the addition of a top goaltender and a few vets that are willing to play the trap system... but now theres tons of kids ready to rock and roll and they had winning experience in the ahl, and you bring them into a good situation at the nhl too.

you dont need too many number 1 picks to succeed. a couple would be great and that would take care of your first line. good dmen can be picked up later in the first round or second so when you rebuild the team get a ton of these types of picks and then use them to draft a ton of dmen.

focus on 3/4/5/6 types... cause theres going to be so much cap space available that you will be able to get 1/2 types by throwing a crap load of money at them when the time comes

get a good deep defense built... have alot of cheap affordable kids in second/third line roles... a top goalie... a couple premium top picks and the team is set to go on a 10 year run at the top of the standings.

it could be done imho... and should be

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05-08-2012, 04:12 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
I agree with almost everything, except Cervenka is not a high risk, its a 1 year ELC, with $2 million of his bonuses being for major awards. if Cervenka struggles badly he has a 2way deal
The risk has more to do with the cap implications than anything else. It can certainly be a barrier to acquiring a Free Agent.

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05-08-2012, 04:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
The risk has more to do with the cap implications than anything else. It can certainly be a barrier to acquiring a Free Agent.
The Flames have a lot of cap space, and short of acquiring one of the big names on July 1, won't be close to the cap next season.

Feaster made a move because he knows how unlikely it is we land somebody like Suter in the off-season.

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05-08-2012, 04:19 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
The risk has more to do with the cap implications than anything else. It can certainly be a barrier to acquiring a Free Agent.
The Flames can bury someone in the minors if that's the case. Really bit of a moot point as the Flames have a ton of cap space, plus what major free agent are they signing? If Suter or Parise are willing to sign here, the Flames will find a way.

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05-08-2012, 04:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
The risk has more to do with the cap implications than anything else. It can certainly be a barrier to acquiring a Free Agent.
the Flames have alot of cap space and not too many open roster spots.

According to capgeek the Flames have just shy of $18 million in cap space next season not including Cervenka or Baertschi(about $5 million total). So let's knock that down to $13 million.

with that 13 million the Flames need to sign Backlund, Jones & Irving (say $3 million combined). so that leaves 10 million to sign 2 forwards and 1 defenseman before the rumored cap increase of 5-7 million.

so the way 1 see it even with Cervenka's contract the Flames have 15-17 million to sign 3 players (obviously both the cap figure and dollar figure increase if players are dumped) so the cap is hardly a concern

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05-08-2012, 05:29 PM
  #82
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Unless you're Hossa.
Sure. After his third try

I'm thinking Iginla wont want to move to three different teams starting at age 35 in the hopes of winning a cup.

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05-08-2012, 05:32 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
I don't think I ever said the Flames had better or equivalent prospects to Edmonton or Ottawa. I also don't know why you're brining up Ottawa. If anything, they are a great example of how to retool without a total rebuild and acquire a great prospect pool in the process.
Fair enough. That was a followup to earlier conversation in the thread, and I'm not exactly in the sort of mood necessary to try to see if I can level another accusation, nor would it be reasonable of me to try to get you to defend the silly assertions of others, so we can move on.

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05-08-2012, 05:33 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
The risk has more to do with the cap implications than anything else. It can certainly be a barrier to acquiring a Free Agent.


Its a pretty uninspiring crop of free agents this year, and its not like the Flames are going to get the top ones..

So I don't think that's the trail they'll be taking.

I would bet that the roster will be filled from within.

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05-08-2012, 05:50 PM
  #85
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Yakupov will be a great complement to the Oils talented youth.... as for trading Sven and a first for Yak, no thanks, I would rather build around a guy who is possibly closer to a Sakic or Zetteberg than a guy who is closer to a Yashin or Bure....


Do you even know who Sakic is? It's asinine to compare even the Oilers young guns to him, much less Sven Bartschi.:laugh :

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
I don't think I ever said the Flames had better or equivalent prospects to Edmonton or Ottawa. I also don't know why you're brining up Ottawa. If anything, they are a great example of how to retool without a total rebuild and acquire a great prospect pool in the process.
We bring up Ottawa because the Flames think their retool can look like Ottawa when in fact their young player/prospect pool is light years behind that of Ottawa.

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05-08-2012, 06:08 PM
  #86
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What good is acquiring elite talent if you don't do anything useful with it? Edmonton's got an extremely talented young team, and they still can't win. Hopefully they get it together this year. It's going to look bad, once again, if they fail to make the playoffs for the seventh season in a row. Now is the time for their young guns to start carrying their team somewhere.

So far, we've seen Edmonton be one of the worst teams in the league since their playoff run. Nothing's changed in that department over the last six years. Hopefully Yakupov is everything you imagine him to be... Calgary's prospect base is nowhere near as bleak as you make it out to be.
Thats Calgarys record that they can keep( plus one succesful season since 1989)

I hope the Flames ride Iginla, and Kippersoff into retirement, and put all there hopes into a KHL star and an overrated prospect that played on the most stacked team in the CHL(debatable sure, but its up there)

They should just stand firm with their current roster and prospect pool

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05-08-2012, 06:17 PM
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Just throwing this out there.

If the Flyers want to draft up, how about this:

Gus, Carle's rights and our 1st for Calgary's 1st?

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05-08-2012, 06:19 PM
  #88
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I just don't get how anyone can look at the Oilers and see that as a successful rebuild. HF=Fail
Lets wait and see on this. It would be like saying Pittsburgh's rebuild was a failure because they finished second last again the year after they got Crosby.

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05-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Just throwing this out there.

If the Flyers want to draft up, how about this:

Gus, Carle's rights and our 1st for Calgary's 1st?
Carle is a UFA, right? If so, your gonna have to add.

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05-08-2012, 06:54 PM
  #90
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Calgary has no interest in trading down that many spots for the rights to a player that may not even sign with us.

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05-08-2012, 07:44 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Lanny Mcdonald View Post
Whole-sale Rebuilds are a thing of the past. Retooling is all thats needed to be done.

facepalm the fact that your a oilers fan instead. ok.
Wrong. Wholesale rebuilds are still a way to avoid 10 years of mediocrity. Most teams that don't bite the bullet (Flames, Leafs, Canadiens, Wild, Sabres...) get into the playoffs for a few years or end up finishing just outside the top 16 and never get the top players in the draft that you need to build a true championship team

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05-08-2012, 07:45 PM
  #92
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Thats Calgarys record that they can keep( plus one succesful season since 1989)
Then be worried, since your team is approaching it. And even more scary, your team now is arguably a better nucleus of players than ours were at that time.

As for our current prospect pool, well, there's always room for improvement, but me thinks you're not really up-to-date with what the Flames have done since 2009. We've had some great drafts.

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05-08-2012, 08:11 PM
  #93
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As a Wild fan, I can respect what the Flames are trying to do. I personally think it's the correct and more sustainable approach long term. Less margin of error of course, but certainly doesn't make your franchise out to be a punchline.

There's no need to sell of anything of value on the roster. Youth is all well and good but when bringing along that youth, they'll need that veteran presence to have an impact on the kids. From my perspective, feedback coming from a vet such as Iginla carries much greater weight than a marginal 2nd/3rd line player.

With that said, the Flames have a few pieces here and there they could move. I believe the approach should be to identify one, and move that player for young, viable asset(s). Suddenly the youth coming up looks much better with just one move with an eye on the future. Just my opinion. Selling off the entire roster in order to not have a puncher's chance in most games for 4+ years should never sit well with a fan base. No matter the ultimate outcome.

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05-08-2012, 08:24 PM
  #94
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Cervenka is far more accomplished than Brunnstrom. Bozak was an exellent pickup. If you look at your average #5 overall draft pick, they work out, on average, about as well as Bozak has.

In fact, in Bozak's potential draft year, 2005, Gilbert Brule was chosen with the #5 pick. Bozak is better than Brule right now.
brilliant look at one draft which he was better then the #6th pick that Brule was and then claim to be better then so that makes him look like a top 5 calibre player... players picked at #5 include Price, Alzner, Schenn x2, Nino, Strome, Kessel, Wheeler, Vanek, Ryan Whitney, those being the last 10 5th overall picks Bozak might be lucky to be better then 1-2 of those players when they all hit there prime so no Bozak is currently a 3rd line center and is not even close to a top 5 pick.

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05-08-2012, 08:37 PM
  #95
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For every team that has success with a scorched earth rebuilds there are the other teams that have tried this and failed miserable - see Blue Jackets & Islanders
I know the Islanders are getting closer but they still haven't had a decent playoff appearance since 2002 and the Blue Jackets have never won a playoff game!
HF: Feaster, what are you doing?
JF: Trying to win the race, just like everyone else is doing.
HF: Dude...you're pushing your car down the track.
JF: It ran out of gas.
HF: Maybe you should refuel it?
JF: That doesn't move it forward. The way to win the race is to go forward as fast as possible.
HF: All the last few winners of this race have had fuel in their tank, since the end of the horse era. History shows that's the way to win. Think about what gas could get you. You could sit inside and use the engine, like they did, and go fast!
JF: For every team that has had success with using fuel in their car there is another that tried that and failed miserably. Look at Howson, who used fuel and then turned right into the concrete barrier, or Milbury, who tried to insert the nozzle of the gas hose into a horse's ******* and got kicked in the face. Then Snow didn't go anywhere after he put a mixture of moonshine and Thunderbird in the tank. So you see how much failure your vaunted "fuel" method can lead to!
HF: You have to do more than simply put fuel into a car to win a race. Would you understand the difference between a necessary and sufficient condition if I explained it to you in the abstract, or would you need me to use some kind of analogy to get it into your thick skull? To win, you have to have gas in the tank and then steer the car as well as the past winners have so that -
JF: So you're saying all the past winners of the race were good at steering their cars?
HF: Yes. And?
JF: So you ADMIT that it takes more than fuel to win the race.
HF: I don't know that "admit" is the right word, since I -
JF: And you ADMIT that proper steering is just as, if not more important, for success than simply putting fuel in the tank? Well just look how well I am steering this car!
HF: ...you're doing great, Jay. All the winning cars have been very well steered, and so is yours. Congratulations on getting that part right. You will certainly avoid any tragic, high-speed accidents the way you are going.
JF: So even if, for the sake of argument, you were right about this whole fuel nonsense...I'd still win by compensating for any lack there with my amazing steering abilities! Say, HF, where is your team's car anyway?
HF: It's the one two feet behind you, sitting next to the gas tank, being refueled. The one with the driver in the front seat, and not behind the car.
JF: Oh man, what a bunch of losers your team is! There you are in last place, while I have pushed my car two feet ahead of yours. I'm not listening to you anymore. If anything, you should be the one asking me for advice!

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05-08-2012, 08:45 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
HF: Feaster, what are you doing?
JF: Trying to win the race, just like everyone else is doing.
HF: Dude...you're pushing your car down the track.
JF: It ran out of gas.
HF: Maybe you should refuel it?
JF: That doesn't move it forward. The way to win the race is to go forward as fast as possible.
HF: All the last few winners of this race have had fuel in their tank, since the end of the horse era. History shows that's the way to win. Think about what gas could get you. You could sit inside and use the engine, like they did, and go fast!
JF: For every team that has had success with using fuel in their car there is another that tried that and failed miserably. Look at Howson, who used fuel and then turned right into the concrete barrier, or Milbury, who tried to insert the nozzle of the gas hose into a horse's ******* and got kicked in the face. Then Snow didn't go anywhere after he put a mixture of moonshine and Thunderbird in the tank. So you see how much failure your vaunted "fuel" method can lead to!
HF: You have to do more than simply put fuel into a car to win a race. Would you understand the difference between a necessary and sufficient condition if I explained it to you in the abstract, or would you need me to use some kind of analogy to get it into your thick skull? To win, you have to have gas in the tank and then steer the car as well as the past winners have so that -
JF: So you're saying all the past winners of the race were good at steering their cars?
HF: Yes. And?
JF: So you ADMIT that it takes more than fuel to win the race.
HF: I don't know that "admit" is the right word, since I -
JF: And you ADMIT that proper steering is just as, if not more important, for success than simply putting fuel in the tank? Well just look how well I am steering this car!
HF: ...you're doing great, Jay. All the winning cars have been very well steered, and so is yours. Congratulations on getting that part right. You will certainly avoid any tragic, high-speed accidents the way you are going.
JF: So even if, for the sake of argument, you were right about this whole fuel nonsense...I'd still win by compensating for any lack there with my amazing steering abilities! Say, HF, where is your team's car anyway?
HF: It's the one two feet behind you, sitting next to the gas tank, being refueled. The one with the driver in the front seat, and not behind the car.
JF: Oh man, what a bunch of losers your team is! There you are in last place, while I have pushed my car two feet ahead of yours. I'm not listening to you anymore. If anything, you should be the one asking me for advice!
The problem with this is that Feaster IS "refueling" his team. You seem to think picking first overall is the only way to do that.

The majority of HF posters still think that Feaster is mortgaging the future for the present, when that isn't the truth at all.

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05-08-2012, 08:54 PM
  #97
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Something around Krecji and Iginla?

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Old
05-08-2012, 09:01 PM
  #98
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edmonton fans always talking about how they get all these amazing top 3 players who do nothing, and the best guy theyve drafted last few years is eberle and they got him 20th or something.

funny ass ****
Calgary fans always talk about Edmonton.
You do realize that Eberle is 2 and 3 years older than Hall and RNH right? Hall had 27g and 53 points in 61GP and 52p in 62gp = nothing I guess. They're ****ing teenagers genius. It took the mighty Iginla 7 seasons to finally make the playoffs.

I hope Feaster does the same as previous Flames GM's and try to ice a team that will compete for a playoff spot because thats been the model of success for the past 23 years in Calgary.

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05-08-2012, 09:29 PM
  #99
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Wrong. Wholesale rebuilds are still a way to avoid 10 years of mediocrity. Most teams that don't bite the bullet (Flames, Leafs, Canadiens, Wild, Sabres...) get into the playoffs for a few years or end up finishing just outside the top 16 and never get the top players in the draft that you need to build a true championship team
Stop drinking the lowe kool-ad, exactly when will it work for edmonton? In the last 5 drafts you guys have picked 6th,22nd,10th,1st,1st and 19th. you best player out of that bunch so far is Eberle your 22nd pick. Good GM's build quality teams threw drafting,trades,free agents and a little luck. ask Philly,Vancouver,Boston,SanJose,LA..etc what they think of your "rebuild".

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05-08-2012, 09:36 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
The problem with this is that Feaster IS "refueling" his team. You seem to think picking first overall is the only way to do that.

The majority of HF posters still think that Feaster is mortgaging the future for the present, when that isn't the truth at all.
There's a difference between fueling a racecar with high-octane gasoline and fueling a racecar with the cheap fuel from gas stations.

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