HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Flames Rebuild

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-08-2012, 10:37 PM
  #101
Krut
Registered User
 
Krut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,951
vCash: 500
I can't help but laugh at Flames fans who think that they can simply "follow the Ottawa model." the differences between the two clubs is night and day.

Ottawa has two top scoring threats in the prime of their careers in Spezza and Michalek, who are supplemented by a grizzled vet in Alfredsson. The Flames have nobody even close to Spezza and Michalek's level in their prime. The Sens also had a slew of quality young players who had the ability to come in and make immediate contributions. The Flames have Baertschi, but he doesn't hold a candle to the impact Karlsson has, and the Flames don't have anybody else that can come in and make an impact right away. I hate to break it to you, but most the "quality" prospects that the flames have are dime a dozen in most other organizations.

The Flames are in deep **** because nearly everyone in the organization that is expected to make an impact is either old and past their prime, or much too young to know if they are even NHL quality yet. Other than Giordano and possibly Bouwmeester, they have nobody in the prime of their career ready to make an immediate major contribution, and they have nobody that can do this up front.

Krut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 10:39 PM
  #102
victor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Stop drinking the lowe kool-ad, exactly when will it work for edmonton? In the last 5 drafts you guys have picked 6th,22nd,10th,1st,1st and 19th. you best player out of that bunch so far is Eberle your 22nd pick. Good GM's build quality teams threw drafting,trades,free agents and a little luck. ask Philly,Vancouver,Boston,SanJose,LA..etc what they think of your "rebuild".
2007-6th: Sam Gagner
2007-15th: Alex Plante
2007-21st: Riley Nash
2008-22nd: Jordan Eberle
2009-10th: Magnus Pajaarvi
2010-1st: Taylor Hall
2011-1st: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
2011-19th: Oscar Klefbom

While there have been misses, like AHL-All star this year Alex Plante, and Riley Nash who was moved for Marincin, there appears to be a strong core for a young team. Good GM's build teams through great drafting, and moving assets like Staios to teams looking to part with picks. What value does a pick have, anyway?

victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 10:42 PM
  #103
Iamok
#Panic
 
Iamok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,439
vCash: 500
The Sens aren't really re-tooling either, it's simply only year 1 of a 3 year plan. Of the lineup we started the 2010-11 season with, I'd suspect this is what's left for 2014-15 (the target):

Michalek - Spezza - Alfredsson
Foligno - Fisher - Kovalev
Rutuu - Kelly - Neil
Smith - Winchester - Regin

Kuba - Karlsson
Phillips - Gonchar
Lee - Campoli
Carkner

Leclaire
Elliott

Bold could be argued for/against keeping depending on who you ask.

Iamok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 10:57 PM
  #104
Homesick
Registered User
 
Homesick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
2007-6th: Sam Gagner
2007-15th: Alex Plante
2007-21st: Riley Nash
2008-22nd: Jordan Eberle
2009-10th: Magnus Pajaarvi
2010-1st: Taylor Hall
2011-1st: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
2011-19th: Oscar Klefbom

While there have been misses, like AHL-All star this year Alex Plante, and Riley Nash who was moved for Marincin, there appears to be a strong core for a young team. Good GM's build teams through great drafting, and moving assets like Staios to teams looking to part with picks. What value does a pick have, anyway?
Its also a little early to be writing off Paajarvi, and from reports out of Sweden is that Klefbom made huge strides in his game post WJC(where he was an all-star) So many holes in that other quoted argument.
I guess its better to trade picks away for player like Jokinen(which it looks like Feaster will not be doing)

Homesick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:05 PM
  #105
victor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Its also a little early to be writing off Paajarvi, and from reports out of Sweden is that Klefbom made huge strides in his game post WJC(where he was an all-star) So many holes in that other quoted argument.
I guess its better to trade picks away for player like Jokinen(which it looks like Feaster will not be doing)
Sorry, highlighted players were top 4 in Edmonton scoring. Eberle (21) with 76, Hall (19) with 63, Hopkins (18) with 52, and Gagner (22) with 47 (top four in Edmonton.)

Compares favorably with Iginla with 67, Joikenen with 61, Tanguay with 49, and Glencross with 48.

victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:09 PM
  #106
oilersfan11
Registered User
 
oilersfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,521
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik- View Post
This thread happens over and over and over and over. Non-Flames fans or fans of teams who've been absolutely terrible want vindication for their "method" and want another fanbase to go through what they went through.
Not at all.


I want to see the 80's again where both Flames and Oilers were dominating the NHL.For this to happen the Flames need to do a rebuild.If they don't do a rebuild the future will be the Oilers being a stanley cup threat while Calgary is always fighting for 8th spot.

oilersfan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:17 PM
  #107
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
I can't help but laugh at Flames fans who think that they can simply "follow the Ottawa model." the differences between the two clubs is night and day.

Ottawa has two top scoring threats in the prime of their careers in Spezza and Michalek, who are supplemented by a grizzled vet in Alfredsson. The Flames have nobody even close to Spezza and Michalek's level in their prime. The Sens also had a slew of quality young players who had the ability to come in and make immediate contributions. The Flames have Baertschi, but he doesn't hold a candle to the impact Karlsson has, and the Flames don't have anybody else that can come in and make an impact right away. I hate to break it to you, but most the "quality" prospects that the flames have are dime a dozen in most other organizations.

The Flames are in deep **** because nearly everyone in the organization that is expected to make an impact is either old and past their prime, or much too young to know if they are even NHL quality yet. Other than Giordano and possibly Bouwmeester, they have nobody in the prime of their career ready to make an immediate major contribution, and they have nobody that can do this up front.
Good to know you've accessed Baertschi's pro career before his first season.

Also cup winners tend to have a mix of players of all ages. You don't need or want an entire top six under 24.

As far as potential impact players the flames have Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, and Bouwmeester under 30. They are insertin Baertschi and Cervenka. In fact the only players the Flames have under contract over 30 are Iggy, Kipper, and Tanguay (at 31). The Flames are no longer an old team.


Last edited by blankall: 05-08-2012 at 11:26 PM.
blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:22 PM
  #108
victor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Good to know you've accessed Baertschi's pro career before his first season.

Also cup winners tend to have a mix of players of all ages. You don't need or want an entire top six under 24.

As far as potential impact players the flames have Giordano, Caballero,
If they're the best players, why wouldn't you want them?

victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:38 PM
  #109
Trafalgar Law
Waive Dallas Eakins
 
Trafalgar Law's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,482
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Good to know you've accessed Baertschi's pro career before his first season.

Also cup winners tend to have a mix of players of all ages. You don't need or want an entire top six under 24.

As far as potential impact players the flames have Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, and Bouwmeester under 30. They are insertin Baertschi and Cervenka. In fact the only players the Flames have under contract over 30 are Iggy, Kipper, and Tanguay (at 31). The Flames are no longer an old team.
Cup winners also have elite talent and supplement them with veteran players. Calgary does not have the elite talent (bar Bartschi who's not nearly enough on his own), all they have is the supplement.

Trafalgar Law is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2012, 11:49 PM
  #110
Krut
Registered User
 
Krut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Good to know you've accessed Baertschi's pro career before his first season.

Also cup winners tend to have a mix of players of all ages. You don't need or want an entire top six under 24.

As far as potential impact players the flames have Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, and Bouwmeester under 30. They are insertin Baertschi and Cervenka. In fact the only players the Flames have under contract over 30 are Iggy, Kipper, and Tanguay (at 31). The Flames are no longer an old team.
I'm going to go out on a limb and confidently say that Baertschi won't have the same impact as a defenseman who scores at a PPG clip while playing 25+ minutes a night.

In regards to your core under 30, they have already proven that they aren't good enough to make a playoff quality impact, and they certainly aren't going to get any better. These guys aren't even ithe same league as players like Spezza and Michalek, who proved even before the Sens fell apart that they have the ability to perform on good playoff teams in major roles, and they both still have plenty of prime left. Cervenka is a wild card at best, and there is a very good chance that he will be worse than Jokinen.

Krut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 12:11 AM
  #111
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and confidently say that Baertschi won't have the same impact as a defenseman who scores at a PPG clip while playing 25+ minutes a night.

In regards to your core under 30, they have already proven that they aren't good enough to make a playoff quality impact, and they certainly aren't going to get any better. These guys aren't even ithe same league as players like Spezza and Michalek, who proved even before the Sens fell apart that they have the ability to perform on good playoff teams in major roles, and they both still have plenty of prime left. Cervenka is a wild card at best, and there is a very good chance that he will be worse than Jokinen.
Is this real life?

Michalek has an awful awful playoff record. He has dropped off massively in points in every playoff series he's been in.

Spezza, I'll give you that, he has performed in the playoffs before, but he's also fallen appart big time. The years he performed were on stacked Ottawa teams.

Meanwhile the Flames have Cammalleri, one of the best playoff performers in the previous two playoffs. They also have Jerome Iginla, a player with an exellent playoff record, who recently led the olympic tournament in scoring. Tanguay has a very similar playoff resume to Spezza. So if you're giong to parade Spezza around, you'd better be prepared to say Tanguay is at least equal.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 12:11 AM
  #112
Horton Hears A Woo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 176
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaStromey View Post
Something around Krecji and Iginla?


the bruins would love to add iginla but not at the cost of krecji

Horton Hears A Woo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 12:18 AM
  #113
Krut
Registered User
 
Krut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Is this real life?

Michalek has an awful awful playoff record. He has dropped off massively in points in every playoff series he's been in.

Spezza, I'll give you that, he has performed in the playoffs before, but he's also fallen appart big time. The years he performed were on stacked Ottawa teams.

Meanwhile the Flames have Cammalleri, one of the best playoff performers in the previous two playoffs. They also have Jerome Iginla, a player with an exellent playoff record, who recently led the olympic tournament in scoring. Tanguay has a very similar playoff resume to Spezza. So if you're giong to parade Spezza around, you'd better be prepared to say Tanguay is at least equal.
Except the Flames can't make the playoffs with these guys as the main players, and they don't have enough prime left for the organization to patiently wait for prospects to develop to a level where they can take a lead role with the veterans as capable supplements. Ottawa can make the playoffs with guys like Spezza as their main piece, and they have plenty of young talent to supplement that core. The Flames have neither of these, which is why you see everyone calling rebuild.

Krut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 12:43 AM
  #114
blankall
Registered User
 
blankall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Except the Flames can't make the playoffs with these guys as the main players, and they don't have enough prime left for the organization to patiently wait for prospects to develop to a level where they can take a lead role with the veterans as capable supplements. Ottawa can make the playoffs with guys like Spezza as their main piece, and they have plenty of young talent to supplement that core. The Flames have neither of these, which is why you see everyone calling rebuild.
Yeah, it's impossible that the Flames make the playoffs. I'm glad you can predict that.

Oh and as far as playoff performers go, Baertschi makes the highlight real again tonight. Two goals to tie up the game during the finals. Not saying by any means it's a certainty, but if Baertschi and Cervenka step up, the Flames will easily be a playoff team.

blankall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 12:49 AM
  #115
victor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Yeah, it's impossible that the Flames make the playoffs. I'm glad you can predict that.

Oh and as far as playoff performers go, Baertschi makes the highlight real again tonight. Two goals to tie up the game during the finals. Not saying by any means it's a certainty, but if Baertschi and Cervenka step up, the Flames will easily be a playoff team.
Wow.

Easily? Really?

How much would they have to step it up to make the playoffs, with Joikenen leaving due to cap?

victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:00 AM
  #116
Ice Cream Man
$1 Oysters
 
Ice Cream Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 4,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Yeah, it's impossible that the Flames make the playoffs. I'm glad you can predict that.
I'm not going to defend the Flames and them making the playoffs, as the results are in the reality of the situation... but for the most part, we hung in with that group of five right to the end. Dallas, San Jose, Los Angeles, Colorado, Phoenix... anyone of those teams could have made it.

If fans of other teams are gonna call us bad, they gotta lump the rest of those teams in Calgary`s category.

Ice Cream Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:01 AM
  #117
victor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,797
vCash: 500
And future star Rhett Rachinski with the win!

That said:
- 21st in wins
- 17th in points
- 24th in goals per game
- 14th in goals aginst per game
- 13th in powerplay (*)
- 23rd in shots against per game
- 30th in faceoff percentage

(*) Oh, and Olli Jokinen led the team in power play goals, with 9, and powerplay points with 24.

2 rookies, one with limited experience on the smaller ice surface? Better be a big step up, to make the playoffs...

victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:03 AM
  #118
Krut
Registered User
 
Krut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Yeah, it's impossible that the Flames make the playoffs. I'm glad you can predict that.

Oh and as far as playoff performers go, Baertschi makes the highlight real again tonight. Two goals to tie up the game during the finals. Not saying by any means it's a certainty, but if Baertschi and Cervenka step up, the Flames will easily be a playoff team.
The Flames have missed the playoffs for the last three seasons with that core. Could they make it? It's possible, but three years in a row missing out isn't indicative of a core that is ready to make the playoffs with any certainty. I don't think that is unreasonable to say.

As far as your last comment, pinning your playoff hopes on a young rookie and a guy who hasn't played in the league yet at 26 years old is wishful thinking at best. There's more than a good chance that Cervenka completely busts, and is more than likely a worse player overall than Jokinen. That's a downgrade from last season.

Krut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:39 AM
  #119
Homesick
Registered User
 
Homesick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 50
Flaming aside. I think it would be a dark day in Flames history if they traded Iginla or Kipper. Could they luck out with a couple of prospects? Sure. Bartschi is a good player but getting the same hype as Brayden Schenn did last year. Sure he could be better but he could be worse. A lot of work needs to be done for the Flames and I don't see the playoffs next season

Homesick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:41 AM
  #120
oilersfan11
Registered User
 
oilersfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,521
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Flaming aside. I think it would be a dark day in Flames history if they traded Iginla or Kipper. Could they luck out with a couple of prospects? Sure. Bartschi is a good player but getting the same hype as Brayden Schenn did last year. Sure he could be better but he could be worse. A lot of work needs to be done for the Flames and I don't see the playoffs next season


Who cares Gretzky was traded so these two can be traded as well.

oilersfan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:44 AM
  #121
tmurfin
500g1000pts
 
tmurfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,497
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Flaming aside. I think it would be a dark day in Flames history if they traded Iginla or Kipper. Could they luck out with a couple of prospects? Sure. Bartschi is a good player but getting the same hype as Brayden Schenn did last year. Sure he could be better but he could be worse. A lot of work needs to be done for the Flames and I don't see the playoffs next season
You said a whole lot without saying a whole lot. But I agree, although not with the Baertschi comment, he doesnt even come close to the Schenn hype train.

tmurfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:45 AM
  #122
Ice Cream Man
$1 Oysters
 
Ice Cream Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 4,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Who cares Gretzky was traded so these two can be traded as well.
You`re aware that possibility can be the same for Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Eberle and this year`s 1st, right?

Ice Cream Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:50 AM
  #123
Homesick
Registered User
 
Homesick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmurfin View Post
You said a whole lot without saying a whole lot. But I agree, although not with the Baertschi comment, he doesnt even come close to the Schenn hype train.
Have you watched the Portland/Edmonton series on Shaw? "OMG! Bartschi just took a drink of water on the bench. Sensational"

Homesick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:54 AM
  #124
tmurfin
500g1000pts
 
tmurfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,497
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
Have you watched the Portland/Edmonton series on Shaw? "OMG! Bartschi just took a drink of water on the bench. Sensational"
Hahaha yes, but c'mon. Schenn was "The Best Prospect In The World" according to damn near everyone, Baertschi is lucky to make peoples top 10 lists. Not a lot of chatter on the kid outside of actual game commentary

tmurfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2012, 01:55 AM
  #125
oilersfan11
Registered User
 
oilersfan11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 11,521
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
You`re aware that possibility can be the same for Hall, Nugent-Hopkins, Eberle and this year`s 1st, right?
Yes,In my mind anyone can be traded.

oilersfan11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.