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05-09-2012, 09:57 AM
  #126
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Before just "dumping him" for small or no return, I'd be sure I can sign an upgrade on defense. I would prefer that slot and cap hit would be for a Jackman or salvador or whatever but if we can't get anybody decent then better off keeping him.
Practically speaking, this almost has to happen anyway... because other teams aren't going to take on his contract until they've tried their own hand at shopping the UFA market. So hopefully by July 15th or so we'll have succeeded in landing a better/better-fit UFA defenseman, and hopefully some other team will have failed to land a PMD/PP defenseman and will be willing to take him off our hands.

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05-09-2012, 10:03 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if he does play well for us, why would we move him?
Because people are so blinded by their hate that the possibility of him playing well with us does not register as a viable alternative to unloading him at any cost.

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05-09-2012, 10:09 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Practically speaking, this almost has to happen anyway... because other teams aren't going to take on his contract until they've tried their own hand at shopping the UFA market. So hopefully by July 15th or so we'll have succeeded in landing a better/better-fit UFA defenseman, and hopefully some other team will have failed to land a PMD/PP defenseman and will be willing to take him off our hands.
That's been my line of thinking. If the dominos fall in place there should be a market for him by late July/early August. There is usually a bigger demand than supply of skilled d-men, that's why Wisniewski got ridiculous money.

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05-09-2012, 12:03 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
if he does play well for us, why would we move him?
Because, if Markov is in the line up there are more productive ways for the Habs to spend that 4.25 million.

Especially if Weber and Diaz are both still in the mix.

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05-09-2012, 01:19 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Because people are so blinded by their hate that the possibility of him playing well with us does not register as a viable alternative to unloading him at any cost.
ugg... the "hate" argument rears it's ugly again...

while I know it's easier to cluster opinions differing from your own into convenient groups, doing so seems pointless in a discussion thread.

why would anyone "hate" Kaberle?

dislike how he plays... sure
dislike what he represents for the team from a roster/cap pov... sure

hate? come on, he's just a hockey player, and a soft-spoken & clean one at that.

no hate here... just don't see him as a value to this organization, and at his cost, more of a detriment.

the comments/opinions about moving him "at any cost" is a reflection of that, not of some random "hatred".

as with Gomez a year ago, where many tried to rationalize that he was bound to bounce back with a 50-60pt season, thus making himself potentially tradeable, none of us know for sure how Kaberle will respond to the worst season of his career. From what we did see of him after the Carolina debacle, I'm far more inclined to believe that he'll continue to play soft & uninspired hockey.

you may feel differently, is that because you LOVE him?


Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Because, if Markov is in the line up there are more productive ways for the Habs to spend that 4.25 million.

Especially if Weber and Diaz are both still in the mix.
I don't know about that.

If Kaberle were to be "playing well" (which is of course, subjective... i take it to mean playing at or near the level of a solid top-4 contributor in terms of ES ice time, on top of his PP production remaining high), then it would be silly to move him.

Playoffs require strong depth, especially on defense. If the habs go into the season with his 4.25M$ on the books, and he's playing well, keeping him in as a top-4 guy would make more sense then trying to trade him for assets, and then trading other assets to fill his void.

Markov - Gorges
Subban - Kaberle
Diaz - Emelin
Weber

if that group is playing well, there wouldn't be much sense in trading away assets mid-season, paying the premium that goes with it, to upgrade the top-4... and if you're adding a bottom pairing/depth dman (likely a more physical player), said player shouldn't be so high salaried as to require moving Kaberle's 4.25M$

If bergevin makes the decision to keep him as an opening day roster dman, and he plays well, great... we have a 4.25M$ player giving good value on his contract... that's what we're trying to assemble, pointless to move him then unless for a clear upgrade, but how many teams are looking to make lateral swaps on performing veteran dmen in mid-season?

doesn't make sense.

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05-09-2012, 01:24 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
ugg... the "hate" argument rears it's ugly again...

while I know it's easier to cluster opinions differing from your own into convenient groups, doing so seems pointless in a discussion thread.

why would anyone "hate" Kaberle?

dislike how he plays... sure
dislike what he represents for the team from a roster/cap pov... sure

hate? come on, he's just a hockey player, and a soft-spoken & clean one at that.

no hate here... just don't see him as a value to this organization, and at his cost, more of a detriment.

the comments/opinions about moving him "at any cost" is a reflection of that, not of some random "hatred".

as with Gomez a year ago, where many tried to rationalize that he was bound to bounce back with a 50-60pt season, thus making himself potentially tradeable, none of us know for sure how Kaberle will respond to the worst season of his career. From what we did see of him after the Carolina debacle, I'm far more inclined to believe that he'll continue to play soft & uninspired hockey.

you may feel differently, is that because you LOVE him?




I don't know about that.

If Kaberle were to be "playing well" (which is of course, subjective... i take it to mean playing at or near the level of a solid top-4 contributor in terms of ES ice time, on top of his PP production remaining high), then it would be silly to move him.

Playoffs require strong depth, especially on defense. If the habs go into the season with his 4.25M$ on the books, and he's playing well, keeping him in as a top-4 guy would make more sense then trying to trade him for assets, and then trading other assets to fill his void.

If bergevin makes the decision to keep him as an opening day roster dman, and he plays well, great... we have a 4.25M$ player giving good value on his contract... that's what we're trying to assemble, pointless to move him then unless for a clear upgrade, but how many teams are looking to make lateral swaps on performing veteran dmen in mid-season?

doesn't make sense.
The problem is, on here, once fans or a group of fans get in their head that player X sucks or Player Y has to be traded, it's impossible to reason with them.

Sure Kaberle didn't play his best hockey with us, but to suggest that there is no way he can return to production that justifies 4.25 mil or more is ridiculous and irrational. If you piece together coming in out of shape and with a cup hangover, not hard to see why he had a down year, but those things can be fixed...most pro athletes are proud and will work twice as hard after a down year to bounce back.

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05-09-2012, 01:41 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The problem is, on here, once fans or a group of fans get in their head that player X sucks or Player Y has to be traded, it's impossible to reason with them.

Sure Kaberle didn't play his best hockey with us, but to suggest that there is no way he can return to production that justifies 4.25 mil or more is ridiculous and irrational. If you piece together coming in out of shape and with a cup hangover, not hard to see why he had a down year, but those things can be fixed...most pro athletes are proud and will work twice as hard after a down year to bounce back.
- he was just as bad for the bruins, pre-cup hangover/out of shape.

- most "proud" athletes won't use the cup hangover as an excuse to show up out of shape... likewise, a proud individual wouldn't sign a fat new contract and proceed to show up out of shape. If anything, Kaberle's behavior points directly to the opposite of a "proud athlete"... that's why it seems unlikely that he returns to a productive ES player.

- at 34, it's not like he doesn't/didn't know what he needed to do to be ready for the season, likewise, it's unlikely (speculation here) that his issues last offseason weren't related to the kind of excessive partying/late nights that young players get distracted with... showing up out of shape is a reflection of not being willing to do the work necessary. Gomez experience the same thing, and when he looked in the mirror and decided to try to "fix" it by putting in the hardest work in the offseason of his career, what happened? he had an even worse season...
when you train and compete at the highest level, as you get into your 30's it becomes incredibly difficult to make up for any lost time.

it's far far more likely, (speaking from related experience) that at this point, he's mentally comfortable with being used the way he has been... minimal ES time, tons of PP time, tons of offensive zone starts. he's talented enough that he can still "produce" without a full mental/physical/emotional commitment, but the reality is that playing that way leads to steady & quick declines, and more importantly, it's a mindset that can't be suddenly "flipped" when the games are more important. Not the kind of asset you want around young players, nor the kind you want to have going into a playoff battle.

of course, I could be way off. He could be the exception, he could re-discover his passion for being an elite athlete, like Gomez, spending the offseason putting in the necessary work, an he could (unlike gomez) reverse the trend and show up ready to play a serious top-4 role...

none of that is impossible.

likely? I obviously don't think so, for the reasons stated above.

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05-09-2012, 01:52 PM
  #133
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Put Subban with Kaberle, and play Gorges with Markov

Subban would be looked at to be the defensive stalwart on that line, BUT he'd also be playing with a damn good offensive talent.

Markov-Gorges (Gorges has played on his offside plenty)
Kaberle-Subban
Emelin-Diaz/Weber

Rotate Diaz and Weber, giving both lots of playing time.

If comfortably in the playoffs, look into moving Kaberle if Diaz and Weber are both playing really well.

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05-09-2012, 07:27 PM
  #134
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I said it in another topic, Kaberle led the habs blue line in ppg last season disclaimer: based on habs games only)

His 4.25 is unlikely to really impact our cap situation next season. Especially if we free up Gomez. Give him bottom pairing 5-5 minutes, favorable matchups at home, lots of pp time, and offensive draws and he can be plenty effective for us. We just need smart coaching.

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05-09-2012, 09:17 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Put Subban with Kaberle, and play Gorges with Markov

Subban would be looked at to be the defensive stalwart on that line, BUT he'd also be playing with a damn good offensive talent.

Markov-Gorges (Gorges has played on his offside plenty)
Kaberle-Subban
Emelin-Diaz/Weber

Rotate Diaz and Weber, giving both lots of playing time.

If comfortably in the playoffs, look into moving Kaberle if Diaz and Weber are both playing really well.
I would rather see Georges paired with kaberle, Kaberle is a defensive liability but paired with Georges he might start picking up his game. That would free up Emelin to play alongside of Subban and we would be in a position where we would rely less on Markov. Plus Markov might be an excellent partner for one of Tinordi or Beaulieu if they where to make the team.

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05-10-2012, 01:03 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I would rather see Georges paired with kaberle, Kaberle is a defensive liability but paired with Georges he might start picking up his game. That would free up Emelin to play alongside of Subban and we would be in a position where we would rely less on Markov. Plus Markov might be an excellent partner for one of Tinordi or Beaulieu if they where to make the team.
i don't think you pay Gorges 3.9M$ to babysit a defensive liability, especially when he's one of your top-2 match up dmen.

We need Gorges to be on the ice against the oppositions best (or 2nd best if Subban & he are split), I don't think any coach wanting to keep his job would want to see Kaberle regularly lining up against anything short of the oppositions bottom line players.

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05-10-2012, 09:04 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The problem is, on here, once fans or a group of fans get in their head that player X sucks or Player Y has to be traded, it's impossible to reason with them.

Sure Kaberle didn't play his best hockey with us, but to suggest that there is no way he can return to production that justifies 4.25 mil or more is ridiculous and irrational. If you piece together coming in out of shape and with a cup hangover, not hard to see why he had a down year, but those things can be fixed...most pro athletes are proud and will work twice as hard after a down year to bounce back.
I don't think anybody has suggested that. Well, maybe I just gloss over those posts and they don't really register in my head. But to me, even though I am a stolid proponent of moving Kaberle and Bourque, it's by no means because I think there's "no way" they can return to form/live up to their salary/notably help our team. It's never so absolute.

But I do think that based on the recent precedents they've set by their level of play, the odds of it happening are not good enough for me. I don't, for example, *expect* Kaberle or Bourque to play well for us. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did. And I do agree it's possible. Just that if I had a choice between players for whom it's "possible-yet-not-expected" and players who I'd actually expect to play well/live up to their salary/help our team notably, I'd take the latter.

And that includes full recognition that players you *expect* to do well could also falter and fail to live up to those expectations. It goes all ways. It's just playing the odds as we see them, though.

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05-10-2012, 09:33 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't think anybody has suggested that. Well, maybe I just gloss over those posts and they don't really register in my head. But to me, even though I am a stolid proponent of moving Kaberle and Bourque, it's by no means because I think there's "no way" they can return to form/live up to their salary/notably help our team. It's never so absolute.

But I do think that based on the recent precedents they've set by their level of play, the odds of it happening are not good enough for me. I don't, for example, *expect* Kaberle or Bourque to play well for us. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did. And I do agree it's possible. Just that if I had a choice between players for whom it's "possible-yet-not-expected" and players who I'd actually expect to play well/live up to their salary/help our team notably, I'd take the latter.

And that includes full recognition that players you *expect* to do well could also falter and fail to live up to those expectations. It goes all ways. It's just playing the odds as we see them, though.

First, I don't propose keeping Kaberle and/or Bourque because I think they are a perfect fit...though Bourque's size and scoring touch could be a good fit for us on a 2nd or 3rd line if he can get back to his Calgary days. Kaberle, unless Markov goes down again or was to be traded, is a poor fot for our team and his cap hit with younger/cheaper guys like Weber and Diaz being able to grow in his role.

Second, the main message for me there was that it would possibly cost us more to replace Bourque with a smilar or better UFA, we will be hard pressed to replace AK let alone trying to find TWO wingers that can play top 9 and contribute offense. I see LeBlanc needing more time in Hamilton and don't want to rush the rookies so dependin on what happens to Moen we may need three top 9 wingers. I think the best/safest option is to keep Bourque and challenge him to rebound while bringing in another top 6 option to challenge him for that spot like Penner/Stoll/Boyes/Jagr? etc(unless obviously a high end option is available).

Kaberle I would keep him until after the big name UFA's are off the board and if I was able to add a big stay at home type then move him.

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