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The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part III

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05-10-2012, 09:28 AM
  #26
laufer72
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya it is kind of obvious...

Staal is not a winger and of the big three, i am beyond certain he is the one who would struggle the most at wing.

If he comes back, then Malkin has to go to wing. There is simply no other way to utilize these three in a better manner.

For the people who want Staal back, to pay him what it will take to retain him, you better accept that means Malkin to wing. Because you don't pay a guy like Staal that kind of money to play wing.

Malkin is a team guy, so he will do it, and excel as I always said. Will he be pissed to a certain extent? Maybe...

You cant avoid the reality that for Staal to be in the top 6, someone has to play wing and Staal is the worst fit...
I'm sorry, but I get indigestion every time someone suggests they should please Staal and highly possible piss off Malkin to the point he doesn't want to resign here when his contract is about to expire.

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05-10-2012, 09:28 AM
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I think Staal would get somewhere around 6-6.5 on a longer term deal as opposed to a 7M a year deal. That is insane. I love Jordan but guys, let's not go crazy here.

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05-10-2012, 09:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Zirakzigil View Post
He can walk/get traded and possibly be a #1 center somewhere else. But that doesnt mean hes going to go to a good team. This is all going to come down to what Staal wants in his future. If hes only going for money he will get traded and sign some stupid contract in the 6-7mil range on another team and probably not in another cup. If he wants to be on a winning team then he knows hes going to have to take something in the Kesler range. Staal may be good enough to be an elite defensive center capable of putting up 80-100 points a season. Or he could sink on a different team and never do anything the rest of his career.
He won a cup... That is out of the way.

Three years now this team has fell short in the playoffs... So obviously being on the Pens doesn't guarantee him more SCs.

Aside from one year, plenty of other teams not using the big 3 center model have won cups. He knows that and I'm sure his agent is pushing that agenda as well.

If you look at the successful teams over the years, the elite, cup winning teams, they are usually built around a two center model... The Oilers, Pens, Det, Col, Dallas, Det again, Chi, etc

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05-10-2012, 09:31 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
I'm sorry, but I get indigestion every time someone suggests they should please Staal and highly possible piss off Malkin to the point he doesn't want to resign here when his contract is about to expire.
Well buy more tums I guess.

Because if people want Staal back, it will eventually mean Malkin winds up at wing.

There is no other way around it.

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05-10-2012, 09:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Well buy more tums I guess.

Because if people want Staal back, it will eventually mean Malkin winds up at wing.

There is no other way around it.
Luckily, "people" don't make those decisions.

BTW, why do you think Staal is incapable of playing wing?

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05-10-2012, 09:38 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
I'm sorry, but I get indigestion every time someone suggests they should please Staal and highly possible piss off Malkin to the point he doesn't want to resign here when his contract is about to expire.
You're right, if Malkin wants to stay at center you keep him at center. But moving Staal to wing doesn't seem like the answer. It's not to cater to Staal, its because Staal would lose a lot more moving to wing than Malkin. Malkin would be a the best winger in the league for 8.7 million, Staal would be our 2nd best winger for 6 million. I just don't see him being worth 6 million dollars at wing and I really don't think you can pay a 3rd line C 6 million. Unless he's willing to take a pretty big paycut I don't see how he really fits here long term.

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05-10-2012, 09:40 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
Luckily, "people" don't make those decisions.

BTW, why do you think Staal is incapable of playing wing?
Actually people do make those decisions.. Like a GM and coach, plus Staal's play at wing will make it obvious he doesn't fit there.

For about the 100th time he doesn't have the feet to play wing. You also don't pay a guy with Staal's talents to play wing, where his defensive work will be vastly underutilized.

You can rant all you like, but reality will set in by Thanksgiving if he comes back. Malkin will eventually be at wing because he is simply a much, much better winger than Staal, period.

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05-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Actually people do make those decisions.. Like a GM and coach, plus Staal's play at wing will make it obvious he doesn't fit there.

For about the 100th time he doesn't have the feet to play wing. You also don't pay a guy with Staal's talents to play wing, where his defensive work will be vastly underutilized.

You can rant all you like, but reality will set in by Thanksgiving if he comes back. Malkin will eventually be at wing because he is simply a much, much better winger than Staal, period.
I think you are grossly missing the point. It's not about me or anyone "ranting", it's about priorities and making tough decisions. I would be severely disappointed if your scenario happens, which would mean mine follows it. I'm 90% convinced, Malkin leaves if he's forced to play wing.

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05-10-2012, 09:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
Luckily, "people" don't make those decisions.

BTW, why do you think Staal is incapable of playing wing?
I don't think any of us think he is completely incapable of playing wing. He'd probably be pretty good at it. But he's a considerably better center. He's going to get payed for his ability at center even if he plays wing. I think the argument is that he isn't worth the money he is going to be making as a wing.

Does anyone think he'd be as good as Neal at wing?

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05-10-2012, 09:53 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
I think you are grossly missing the point. It's not about me or anyone "ranting", it's about priorities and making tough decisions. I would be severely disappointed if your scenario happens, which would mean mine follows it. I'm 90% convinced, Malkin leaves if he's forced to play wing.
I'm sure Shero will talk to Malkin before he signs Staal with plans to play center. If Malkin says no, he wants to stay at center you have to do something else with Staal. If Malkin wants to play center, you let him play center. If that means you have to trade Staal, so be it. I think we can get a better player for 6 million dollars than Staal at wing.

The point I think jig is trying to make is that the Penguins would be a better team with Staal centering Malkin than it would be with Malkin center Staal. He isn't saying that we should do that if its going to push Malkin out the door.

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05-10-2012, 10:00 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
I think you are grossly missing the point. It's not about me or anyone "ranting", it's about priorities and making tough decisions. I would be severely disappointed if your scenario happens, which would mean mine follows it. I'm 90% convinced, Malkin leaves if he's forced to play wing.
I'm not missing any point... you are missing my original point.

For those who want Staal back, don't complain when Malkin ultimately ends up at wing.

Malkin is easily the better winger by a mile.

I keep pointing out that Recchi and Cullen, much better players than Staal, were traded and it worked out well.

As long as this team has Malkin and Crosby they will be contenders. Elite teams over the years have been built around the two center model, and the Pens have the best combo in the league.


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05-10-2012, 10:14 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm sure Shero will talk to Malkin before he signs Staal with plans to play center. If Malkin says no, he wants to stay at center you have to do something else with Staal. If Malkin wants to play center, you let him play center. If that means you have to trade Staal, so be it. I think we can get a better player for 6 million dollars than Staal at wing.

The point I think jig is trying to make is that the Penguins would be a better team with Staal centering Malkin than it would be with Malkin center Staal. He isn't saying that we should do that if its going to push Malkin out the door.
Here's the problem.....would Pens be a good team with Staal centering Malkin, pretty sure the answer is yes. Are Pens good enough with Staal as 3rd line center, yes, again. Problem is either way, you will make someone unhappy.

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05-10-2012, 10:15 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm not missing any point... you are missing my original point.

For those who want Staal back, don't complain when Malkin ultimately ends up at wing.

Malkin is easily the better winger by a mile.

I keep pointing out that Recchi and Cullen, much better players than Staal, were traded and it worked out well.

As long as this team has Malkin and Crosby they will be contenders. Elite teams over the years have been built around the two center model, and the Pens have the best combo in the league
.
Absolutely correct, and that's why I'm saying it isn't worth the gamble.

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05-10-2012, 10:21 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
Here's the problem.....would Pens be a good team with Staal centering Malkin, pretty sure the answer is yes. Are Pens good enough with Staal as 3rd line center, yes, again. Problem is either way, you will make someone unhappy.
I have a feeling Staal doesn't want to play wing either. I really have some doubts that there's anything we can do to make our 3 centers all happy long term.

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05-10-2012, 10:32 AM
  #40
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I've said this before and it's simple really. If Jordan Staal doesn't want to be a 3rd line center anymore and wants to move into the top 6 as a center and doesn't want to play wing. You trade him, he has no role on this team anymore if that's the case.

I like Staal, but i disagree with some talk I've heard about it being smarter to trade Malkin before Staal. I mean yes, Staal does bring it both offensively and defensively, and he's a big, young center who can easily be in the top 6. But he's no Evgeni Malkin.

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05-10-2012, 10:33 AM
  #41
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Staal at anything over 5M on the Pens just doesnt make sense IMO.
He will get offered more from Shero Im sure, and even more if he makes it to FA.

He wants a more offensive role which he has every right to ask for, but given the 2 Centers in front of him, its easier said than done

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05-10-2012, 10:37 AM
  #42
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Staal is not a 7mil player. Maybe if he hit UFA but even then hes not. He is not close to the Stamkos, Thornton, Backstrom range of center. His value is closer to Kesler. The CBA will almost certainly drop the salary cap and with it probably come with another salary rollback. Even a player like Mike Richards, who in my opinion is a better all round center at this time then Staal, is only making 5.7mil in his contract.
So, what you're saying then is that Staal, even though he could earn 1.5M a season more if he waited for free agency, should just resign with the Pens for under 6M on July 1 because Sid and Geno and Orpik took discounts (even though all took smaller discounts, significantly smaller in terms of percentage of dollars left on the table and even smaller in absolute dollars than Sid or Geno), because it would be best for the Pens if he took less than 6M, and because it should be HFBoards fans, not the market, that dictates a player's value. Do I have that right?

There's a reason why people say that Staal has nothing to lose and everything to gain by NOT signing an extension with the Pens for under 6M (perhaps even under 6.5M), and, in case you missed it, I just articulated it above.

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I don't think it matters if he's really a 7 million dollar player or not. Someone will pay him crazy money like that. I have little doubt. The crazy UFA market got Colby Armstrong 3 million/per a while back. Many other examples of this too.
This is why I said that I'd be absolutely stunned if Staal signed for 5.5M (and even a little shocked if he signed for 6.25M). It's one thing to leave money on the table. Sid, Geno, and Orpik all probably could have gotten 15% more than they accepted on the open market. But, asking Staal to take 5.5M when he could get 7M+ means you're asking him to leave 25-30% on the table for what could be the biggest contract of his career (and it's not his second contract like Sid or Geno). I just can't see that. If he's willing to leave 15% on the table versus what he could get, then you're looking at 6.2M. At least that I could see, although it would depend on how much the question of his role factors into things for him.

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05-10-2012, 10:44 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya it is kind of obvious...

Staal is not a winger and of the big three, i am beyond certain he is the one who would struggle the most at wing.

If he comes back, then Malkin has to go to wing. There is simply no other way to utilize these three in a better manner.

For the people who want Staal back, to pay him what it will take to retain him, you better accept that means Malkin to wing. Because you don't pay a guy like Staal that kind of money to play wing.

Malkin is a team guy, so he will do it, and excel as I always said. Will he be pissed to a certain extent? Maybe...

You cant avoid the reality that for Staal to be in the top 6, someone has to play wing and Staal is the worst fit...
Yeah, Malkin will do it. Frankly, he's the biggest 'team guy' on the Pens. But, I'm not sure that he's a 8.7M per year winger (even though he'll make the best of it). And, I'm not sure that he wouldn't or shouldn't be pissed. IMO, I could see it getting grating after a while if enough people note (embellish a little, perhaps) that 'arguably the best center in hockey is being forced to play wing to accommodate Jordan Staal and that perhaps it would be in his interest to find a team willing to play arguably hockey's best center at center when his contract expires'. I just don't know that I'd ever expect even Geno would be that selfless . . .

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05-10-2012, 10:50 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
He has proven that he can contribute either as an elite defensive center or a scoring forward. he's never shown that he can do both at the same time.



5.5 would be an absolute steal. Every cent he gets below 6.5 is him taking a discount on what he'll get as a UFA. If we can't get a discount, I don't know if we can keep him. You can't pay 6 mil for a 3rd line center and I don't think he's a 6 million dollar winger. That's something that would have been nice to test a little more before we got to this situation.



I agree that he isn't on the level with those guys, but contract inflation has been pretty insane the last few years. Based on the signings of the last two years Staal could get 6.5 from some good teams and he could probably break 7 from a team that wants him to be their premiere center. Though a change to the CBA could change things.
I think this is the thing that it really boils down to. Staal taking low 6M would be a gift to the Pens comparable to the percentage of dollars that Sid and Geno left on the table (perhaps even more if you consider that Staal would be doing it on his third contract, not his second). But, you can't pay Staal 6M and slide arguably the best center in hockey to the wing to accommodate him. I mean, you can do those things . . . you can pay Staal over 6M, you can force Malkin to play wing, but it's something that won't work beyond 24 months at most when you consider the cap implications and what could then evolve as the potential risk of losing Malkin.

And, this, in the end, is why I think Shero LISTENS to offers for Staal. He's not selling him cheap or, for that matter, even if a fair deal. No chance whatsoever. If someone doesn't step to the plate with a Richards+ return, then he'll just give Staal the money it will take and deal with the headaches that will come in a year or two later. BUT, if someone steps up with that premium offer, then I think he weighs the pros and cons and moves Staal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm not missing any point... you are missing my original point.

For those who want Staal back, don't complain when Malkin ultimately ends up at wing.

Malkin is easily the better winger by a mile.

I keep pointing out that Recchi and Cullen, much better players than Staal, were traded and it worked out well.

As long as this team has Malkin and Crosby they will be contenders. Elite teams over the years have been built around the two center model, and the Pens have the best combo in the league.
See above. I think you're pretty much on the same page as me. Shero won't give Staal away, but, like Patrick with Recchi or Cullen, if that great deal comes along, then he'll move Staal. At the very least, he'll be listening.

By the way, I still say if he says 'I'm listening', then a deal happens. Minnesota, Carolina, and Toronto. Buffalo, maybe Columbus and Nashville. I'm sure Calgary will try, maybe Winnipeg. When all is said and done, I think Shero gets a dozen teams minimum make more than superficial inquiries and a minimum of 4-5 Richards caliber offers. The key will be to squeeze those teams for the premium. I still think Toronto steps up (just a gut feeling), although I wonder about Rutherford. I've always wondered if he'd like a 'do over' from the 2006 draft when Shero asked for Ladd and Johnson for the #2 overall.

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05-10-2012, 10:51 AM
  #45
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Yeah, Malkin will do it. Frankly, he's the biggest 'team guy' on the Pens. But, I'm not sure that he's a 8.7M per year winger (even though he'll make the best of it). And, I'm not sure that he wouldn't or shouldn't be pissed. IMO, I could see it getting grating after a while if enough people note (embellish a little, perhaps) that 'arguably the best center in hockey is being forced to play wing to accommodate Jordan Staal and that perhaps it would be in his interest to find a team willing to play arguably hockey's best center at center when his contract expires'. I just don't know that I'd ever expect even Geno would be that selfless . . .
Is there any reason to think he won't be "arguably the best wing in hockey" though?

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05-10-2012, 11:02 AM
  #46
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Is there any reason to think he won't be "arguably the best wing in hockey" though?
Yes, the same reason Staal isn't a good winger. Frankly, I'd argue that Staal looked a lot better on Malkin's wing than Malkin ever has on Crosby's or Staal's wing.

Look, in terms of order of things that I'd love to see happen, it's this:

1. Shero dumps Martin and Orpik. He moves Orpik in a deal for Stewart, Martin and TK in a deal for Malone. Then, he trades his first for Kulemin. I'd have three lines of Kunitz-Sid-Neal, Malone-Geno-Kulemin, and Tangradi-Staal-Stewart. I'd roll three lines, not specify any one as a 'defensive line', have Sid and Geno kills penalties, and make Cooke-Vitale-Dupuis a fourth line that rarely plays at big times. All told, those deals are a cap wash. Following summer, I'd move Michalek, maybe even Malone if need be if I needed cap space. IMO, this is a workable 4-5 year plan.

2. I sign Staal for 6M and put him with Malkin and Neal and hope Geno and Staal can work out a hybrid C/W deal like Geno and Talbot had. I actually think they might be able to do that. The problem is that *** clown Bylsma NEVER ******* tried Staal, Malkin, and Neal together once with all that ******* around he did with the lines after Sid came back.

3. I listen to offers for Staal and, if there's a Richards plus a premium return, then I trade Staal.

4. I permanently move Malkin to wing to make Staal the 2C.

Choice one probably is the best of the lot but won't happen. Martin could be moved, but Shero would move neither Orpik nor his first. Choice two is what could happen, but, no matter what management and coaches might say about that after Staal were signed, you know how it would work out in the end. Choice three is most likely, IMO, not because Shero is going to be looking to deal Staal, but instead because I think he's going to listen and what he's going to hear is a cattle call that turns into a bidding war the likes of which we haven't seen in a long, long time.

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05-10-2012, 11:06 AM
  #47
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I have a feeling Staal doesn't want to play wing either. I really have some doubts that there's anything we can do to make our 3 centers all happy long term.
I keep hearing from reliable media people he doesn't want to play wing. Why?

Because he knows he will struggle there. A guy like Staal knows he is better at center than wing - he isn't stupid.

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05-10-2012, 11:15 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I keep hearing from reliable media people he doesn't want to play wing. Why?

Because he knows he will struggle there. A guy like Staal knows he is better at center than wing - he isn't stupid.
What makes you think Malkin won't struggle there?

As I wrote before, when you look at all three of the centers, the one who looked best on the wing actually was Staal, but it was with Malkin as his center and it's something that hasn't been tried since their rookie seasons.

You know, part of me wonders how much Malkin would look forward to being the sacrificial lamb for that dumb *** Bylsma stretch pass that gets the winger up ice standing still to make a chip as he's getting pounded by two guys.

Jiggy: Question for you, since you watch the Leafs (I just put this in the buy or sell thread) . . . BUY OR SELL: BRIAN BURKE WOULD RATHER HAVE JORDAN STAAL THAN RICK NASH. Just wondering, if he's going to give up the farm, who his first target will be . . .

EDIT: I just got two BUY right out the gate. You think about what Columbus was asking for Nash, what Toronto probably would be willing to pay this summer. And, here you've got a situation where Staal's value may be in the ball park (maybe even comparable). THIS is why I think Shero listening turns into a bidding war like nothing we've seen, why Shero actually gets an overwhelming offer, and why Staal will be moved, most likely before the draft. It's not that I WANT to see him go. It's that when the best offer is considered and all the pros and cons are weighed, it will make too much sense not to pull the trigger as a hockey decision (although you never know how sentiment will factor).


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05-10-2012, 11:36 AM
  #49
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What makes you think Malkin won't struggle there?

As I wrote before, when you look at all three of the centers, the one who looked best on the wing actually was Staal, but it was with Malkin as his center and it's something that hasn't been tried since their rookie seasons.

You know, part of me wonders how much Malkin would look forward to being the sacrificial lamb for that dumb *** Bylsma stretch pass that gets the winger up ice standing still to make a chip as he's getting pounded by two guys.

Jiggy: Question for you, since you watch the Leafs (I just put this in the buy or sell thread) . . . BUY OR SELL: BRIAN BURKE WOULD RATHER HAVE JORDAN STAAL THAN RICK NASH. Just wondering, if he's going to give up the farm, who his first target will be . . .

EDIT: I just got two BUY right out the gate. You think about what Columbus was asking for Nash, what Toronto probably would be willing to pay this summer. And, here you've got a situation where Staal's value may be in the ball park (maybe even comparable). THIS is why I think Shero listening turns into a bidding war like nothing we've seen, why Shero actually gets an overwhelming offer, and why Staal will be moved, most likely before the draft. It's not that I WANT to see him go. It's that when the best offer is considered and all the pros and cons are weighed, it will make too much sense not to pull the trigger as a hockey decision (although you never know how sentiment will factor).
I have seen Malkin at wing enough to know he will dominate there. Elite talent like him can play wing or center. Staal isn't elite.

The idea of Staal at wing makes me completely ill, then throw on top of that he will be making 6m or so, **** that.

I have said for two years now that Jeffrey is an ideal third line center. He is always around the puck, he is a crafty playmaker (one area he is better than Staal for sure) and responsible in his own end.

I would rather see him as their third center with a stacked top 6, including a true winger Staal could bring back, than see Staal struggle at wing and Malkin eventually having to move there.

You have two studs, build around them and it will all work out. No more of this ******** of them playing with third liners and guys past their prime. If Staal is gone, that makes it extremely obvious, and much more plausible they can give these two the talent around them to max out their talent (when it matters the most).

Staal is not as important to this team as people like to think... Crosby and Malkin are.

As for Burke and the Leafs, they need a top center badly. I firmly believe if he doesn't make the playoffs this season, he is gone. So that 5th overall isn't doing him much good to save his job three or four years from now. Staal is already developed and only 23 years old with the most playoff experience of anyone his age... Ever.

I think we both know what Burke will do... He claimed he will be agressive this summer so...

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05-10-2012, 11:39 AM
  #50
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Yes, the same reason Staal isn't a good winger. Frankly, I'd argue that Staal looked a lot better on Malkin's wing than Malkin ever has on Crosby's or Staal's wing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
What makes you think Malkin won't struggle there?

As I wrote before, when you look at all three of the centers, the one who looked best on the wing actually was Staal, but it was with Malkin as his center and it's something that hasn't been tried since their rookie seasons.

I'm sorry but I just flat out disagree with you then.

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