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Playoffs, Part Three.

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Old
05-09-2012, 11:35 PM
  #26
joshjull
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Jame

I find it incredibly funny in the other playoff thread that you're trying to defend Holmgren as some ballsy visionary. When they went to the Finals, Leighton was playing over his head to get them there. Everyone and their brother knew they had to upgrade their goaltending the following summer. Everyone except Holmgren that is, who decided to go with an unproven kid (Bobrovsky) and and journeyman vet (Boucher). It blew up in his face in the playoffs. Which pissed off his owner.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/i...oalie-too.html

Quote:
During the playoffs, the Flyers equaled a dubious NHL record by making seven in-game goalie switches.

It was strange, and something I never want to see again,” said Snider, adding he had a "productive" meeting Wednesday with general manager Paul Holmgren and Peter Luukko, the Comcast-Spectacor president.

Quote:
Told that the fan base was lamenting about needing a true No. 1 goalie for a few decades, Snider fired back: “I want one, too.”

He paused.

“So either one of the goalies we have has to step up in training camp, or we have to make improvements to make sure it happens. But we are NEVER going to go through the goalie issues we’ve gone through in the last couple of years again.”

Quote:
Snider’s tone suggested the Flyers are prepared to either deal for a goalie (Los Angeles’ Jonathan Bernier? The Islanders’ Evgeni Nabokov?), or sign a free-agent, such as Ilya Bryzgalov of Phoenix.

Signing a marquee free-agent goalie will be difficult because the Flyers have little cap space.

Snider didn’t see that as a problem.

“If we trade or go for a goalie (through free-agency), we’ll make it work,” he said. “We can make anything work, even with the cap.
So in reaction to his owner going off (basically about Holmgren's failures to address the goalie situation), Holmgren massively over corrects last summer with the Bryz trade and contract. To afford that contract a couple of their big contract guys had to go. Briere has a NMC and Grioux makes peanuts relative to what he brings. So Richards and Carter were the ones traded the same day Bryz signed.


There is nothing ballsy about doing what your told to do.


Last edited by joshjull: 05-09-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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05-10-2012, 10:07 AM
  #27
Jame
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Jame

I find it incredibly funny in the other playoff thread that you're trying to defend Holmgren as some ballsy visionary. When they went to the Finals, Leighton was playing over his head to get them there. Everyone and their brother knew they had to upgrade their goaltending the following summer. Everyone except Holmgren that is, who decided to go with an unproven kid (Bobrovsky) and and journeyman vet (Boucher). It blew up in his face in the playoffs. Which pissed off his owner.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/i...oalie-too.html

So in reaction to his owner going off (basically about Holmgren's failures to address the goalie situation), Holmgren massively over corrects last summer with the Bryz trade and contract. To afford that contract a couple of their big contract guys had to go. Briere has a NMC and Grioux makes peanuts relative to what he brings. So Richards and Carter were the ones traded the same day Bryz signed.


There is nothing ballsy about doing what your told to do.
So your position is that the Flyers traded their Captain because they needed the cap space to sign a franchise goalie?

4.86 cap (Schenn + Simmonds)
5.75 cap (Richards)

So the Flyers traded their Captain for 900k in cap space...

Trading Richards has NOTHING to do with creating cap space.

good one JJ...

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05-10-2012, 10:18 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So your position is that the Flyers traded their Captain because they needed the cap space to sign a franchise goalie?

4.86 cap (Schenn + Simmonds)
5.75 cap (Richards)

So the Flyers traded their Captain for 900k in cap space...

Trading Richards has NOTHING to do with creating cap space.

good one JJ...
2 for one, so it's more like 1.8m in savings (assuming whoever is replaced by Schenn/Simmonds is on ELC)

and btw, my opinion on that offseason is a combination of both of your scenarios.

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05-10-2012, 10:29 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
2 for one, so it's more like 1.8m in savings (assuming whoever is replaced by Schenn/Simmonds is on ELC)

and btw, my opinion on that offseason is a combination of both of your scenarios.
of course, there was a directive from ownership to get a franchise goalie... but I think correlating that directly to WHY they traded Richards/Carter is completely misguided.

You don't trade your franchise Captain and premier goal scorer to create cap space to sign a goalie... if you're trading guys like that it's because of bigger issues.

You trade secondary players, you let UFAs go, you buyout dumber contracts... you don't trade 2 core, top line players, just to create cap space to sign a core player at a different position.

Ricahrds/Carter were traded because of character/leadership questions, and a determination that they WEREN'T the guys that were going to lead the franchise to a cup. The correlation of that decision to signing a franchise goalie is literally no more then coincidence. Two decisions were made in Philly
1. We need to get rid of these 2 guys
2. We need a franchise goalie

both are independent of one another

If they did NOT think Ricahrds/Carter were a problem, they would've made different moves to sign Bryzgalov.... and likewise, had they NOT felt they needed a massive franchise goalie contract, they would've still moved Richards/Carter

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05-10-2012, 10:44 AM
  #30
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So by that same token, shouldn't we give Holmgren a ton of **** for signing Carter to a billion year deal within like six months of trading him? Especially because it was pretty obvious that Carter didn't have the same intangible playoff goodness of Richards...

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05-10-2012, 10:49 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
So by that same token, shouldn't we give Holmgren a ton of **** for signing Carter to a billion year deal within like six months of trading him? Especially because it was pretty obvious that Carter didn't have the same intangible playoff goodness of Richards...
We could give him ****... or we could praise him for having the balls to recognize a mistake quickly, and fix it.

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05-10-2012, 10:56 AM
  #32
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I mean, yeah, if our context is so narrow that we're ignoring Holmgren mis-assessing his core, buying the wrong things at the deadline and doing a terrible job with the cap space his bailout moves bought...

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05-10-2012, 11:20 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I mean, yeah, if our context is so narrow that we're ignoring Holmgren mis-assessing his core, buying the wrong things at the deadline and doing a terrible job with the cap space his bailout moves bought...
Did he misassess his core (before making the bold corrections)? Yes
How many GMs make the bold corrective moves?

I don't think he mad the wrong moves at the deadline this year...

and im Not really sure I would call getting Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Simmonds, Jagr, Talbot, Bryzgalov, Lilja.... "doing a terrible job with the cap space he created"

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05-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #34
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Very few teams have as high-profile players as the Flyers did. Really, the only teams I can think of in similar situations are San Jose (discussed to death, Thronton is Richards, Carter is Marleau, they shouldn't have blown it up, they should've spent better), Vancouver (the Sedins aren't good enough to win the Cup, but had they bought offensive depth instead of ****** grinders for the past two seasons that might not matter) and Boston, who cost themselves initially with the Kessel trade but eventually corrected those mistakes with Horton.

I liked his deadline this year, Grossman especially, but I was talking about last year, when he spent a first on Versteeg and didn't address the fact that he had three terrible goaltenders (20/20 hindsight, the call should've been to trade Carter around then, give Richards one more shot at the playoffs as "the guy" without any of his posse and assess from there).

A lot of that could've been done through just moving Carter and lesser forms of cap chicanery. Spending all that coin on Bryz totally offsets the Simmonds and Schenn additions.

Also, my biggest issue with his job of "fixing" his core was the assumption that Pronger was going to stay healthy, which was astronomically stupid.

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05-10-2012, 12:09 PM
  #35
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I'm surprised people are being so critical of Holmgren. Second-round playoff exit or not, he gutted that squad and set it up for years of success. Giroux, Schenn and Couturier will make for a formidable trio for years to come.

Sprinkle in players like JVR (who may net them another quality return this summer if they decide to trade him), Read and Simmonds, who are all young, and they're in even better shape. Veterans like Hartnell and Briere are just gravy.

They could even sign Suter this summer.

They have one of the best coaches in hockey and are in great shape moving forward.

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05-10-2012, 12:14 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
We could give him ****... or we could praise him for having the balls to recognize a mistake quickly, and fix it.
He's not afraid to pull the trigger, I'll give him that much.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but was it him or Clarke that drafted Richards/Carter?

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05-10-2012, 12:23 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Crazy Tasty View Post
He's not afraid to pull the trigger, I'll give him that much.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but was it him or Clarke that drafted Richards/Carter?
Clarke drafted those knuckleheads....

Clarke also, sorta drafted Giroux... but it's hard to believe that it was his decision...

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05-10-2012, 12:24 PM
  #38
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05-10-2012, 12:28 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Clarke drafted those knuckleheads....

Clarke also, sorta drafted Giroux... but it's hard to believe that it was his decision...
I dunno, but I like the type of player Richards is. I dont know the story as to what soured with him in Philthy.

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05-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #40
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They have one of the best coaches in hockey and are in great shape moving forward.
This isn't even close to true. You think players tune out Ruff? They tune out Lavalamp even more and quicker. He's abrasive and creates divides in the locker room. The 'my way or the highway' stuff gets old. He ran Richards out of town and now Richards is proving again why Lavalamp was wrong. He is able to get his players to come out hard....from time to time. Their effort is as inconsistent as their coach. I've got $5 he's fired within 20 games next year.

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05-10-2012, 01:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So your position is that the Flyers traded their Captain because they needed the cap space to sign a franchise goalie?

4.86 cap (Schenn + Simmonds)
5.75 cap (Richards)

So the Flyers traded their Captain for 900k in cap space...

Trading Richards has NOTHING to do with creating cap space.

good one JJ...
Remember they purposefully sent Schenn down at the beginning of the season so his bonus (82 games played) became unobtainable to reduce his cap hit, so for all intents and purposes the 2.1M in bonuses shouldn't count. Schenn + Simmonds really only counted for 2.7M combined against the cap.

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05-10-2012, 01:54 PM
  #42
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Remember they purposefully sent Schenn down at the beginning of the season so his bonus (82 games played) became unobtainable to reduce his cap hit, so for all intents and purposes the 2.1M in bonuses shouldn't count. Schenn + Simmonds really only counted for 2.7M combined against the cap.
good point.

Doesn't change the fact that the idea that the Flyers sent their Captain/Franchise player packing because they needed cap space... is totally

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05-10-2012, 02:00 PM
  #43
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The scary thing about the Flyers is that the core of that team (especially the forwards) is still very young. Schenn, Voracek, JVR, Giroux are all capable of being elite leve players (Giroux is obviously already there).

I think they did everything right up until they signed Bryz. It's just a nightmare scenario. He's a really mercurial guy who never had to deal with pressure or expectations in Phoenix and flourished behind a really good defensive system. Philly is a completely different animal and he just looks lost a lot of times.

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05-10-2012, 02:01 PM
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good point.

Doesn't change the fact that the idea that the Flyers sent their Captain/Franchise player packing because they needed cap space... is totally
There was obviously something going on in the lockerroom that Flyers management wasn't too happy about and lots of things indicated Richards was part of the problem. Where there's smoke there's usually fire, and who would know better than the Flyers themselves?

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05-10-2012, 02:26 PM
  #45
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The scary thing about the Flyers is that the core of that team (especially the forwards) is still very young. Schenn, Voracek, JVR, Giroux are all capable of being elite leve players (Giroux is obviously already there).
But the problem is that Timonen is not getting any younger. Nor is Briere. Pronger's career is likely over. Even before Carle's likely departure this summer there's the very real question whether this defense corps is close to being good enough to winning a Cup.

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There was obviously something going on in the lockerroom that Flyers management wasn't too happy about and lots of things indicated Richards was part of the problem. Where there's smoke there's usually fire, and who would know better than the Flyers themselves?
And I hope that serves as consolation to the Flyers when Mike Richards is carrying around Stanley in a month from now.

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05-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #46
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But the problem is that Timonen is not getting any younger. Nor is Briere. Pronger's career is likely over. Even before Carle's likely departure this summer there's the very real question whether this defense corps is close to being good enough to winning a Cup.



And I hope that serves as consolation to the Flyers when Mike Richards is carrying around Stanley in a month from now.
Using championships to justify a player's value in a team sport where he is 5% of the total product makes tons of sense. It's not like he's the Kings best player. Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick are all more important to this run than Richards.

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05-10-2012, 06:55 PM
  #47
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But the problem is that Timonen is not getting any younger. Nor is Briere. Pronger's career is likely over. Even before Carle's likely departure this summer there's the very real question whether this defense corps is close to being good enough to winning a Cup.



And I hope that serves as consolation to the Flyers when Mike Richards is carrying around Stanley in a month from now.
In hockey, (as it is in every walk of life) people don't always get the message until they are pushed. Richard's needed to be pushed to a new setting.

The same might work for Roy, and I would be down with a Roy for Brown deal fo sho.

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05-10-2012, 06:58 PM
  #48
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The scary thing about the Flyers is that the core of that team (especially the forwards) is still very young. Schenn, Voracek, JVR, Giroux are all capable of being elite leve players (Giroux is obviously already there).

I think they did everything right up until they signed Bryz. It's just a nightmare scenario. He's a really mercurial guy who never had to deal with pressure or expectations in Phoenix and flourished behind a really good defensive system. Philly is a completely different animal and he just looks lost a lot of times.
Exactly this. It does diminish an otherwise brilliant-career defining summer of move for Holmgren. You just don't know what you're getting until you get it, and ambition can blind you sometimes. Just like the Sabres got the "2nd best forward available" the Flyers got the the "#1 goalie available". But, that doesn't always mean the best for your team.

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05-10-2012, 07:29 PM
  #49
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This isn't even close to true. You think players tune out Ruff? They tune out Lavalamp even more and quicker. He's abrasive and creates divides in the locker room. The 'my way or the highway' stuff gets old. He ran Richards out of town and now Richards is proving again why Lavalamp was wrong. He is able to get his players to come out hard....from time to time. Their effort is as inconsistent as their coach. I've got $5 he's fired within 20 games next year.
I totally agree with what you're saying about him and abrasive coaches in general, but, as long as you have a good cop/bad cop situation with the coaching staff as a whole, it doesn't really matter who the bad cop is. From my albeit limited perspective, Berube is there to enforce (yes...that is a pun) a positive attitude with the team.

Richard's is a great player and a true leader by action on the ice, but it would appear that he's not a "C" worthy individual. Maybe giving him the C was the beginning of the end for him in Philly?

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05-10-2012, 07:36 PM
  #50
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I'm surprised people are being so critical of Holmgren. Second-round playoff exit or not, he gutted that squad and set it up for years of success. Giroux, Schenn and Couturier will make for a formidable trio for years to come.

Sprinkle in players like JVR (who may net them another quality return this summer if they decide to trade him), Read and Simmonds, who are all young, and they're in even better shape. Veterans like Hartnell and Briere are just gravy.

They could even sign Suter this summer.

They have one of the best coaches in hockey and are in great shape moving forward.
You were making a solid argument up until this point... Peter Laviolette isn't even close to the top 10, let alone one of the best.
Flyers would be better off getting him out of there and bringing someone in who isn't going to ruin their young core. Or, **** it, keep him. I hate the Flyers and want them to implode

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