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2012 NHL Entry Draft Talk 13.0

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Old
05-11-2012, 12:39 AM
  #301
goforit
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I bet you wish you still had Koivu over Gomez. We'd also still have McDonagh too.

Koivu bled. Koivu overcame cancer. Koivu endured bad teams, worse management and the darkest years of this franchise. He was the one glimmering light throughout all of it.

We'd be BLESSED to have another player of Koivu's skill and character on this team again.
Fully agree. I hate the hate on him.

With a better team, an healthy knee, a better vision (injured eye) and if he hadn't have this cancer, Koivu would have had much better numbers and people would respect him much more.

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05-11-2012, 01:09 AM
  #302
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Koivu was a beauty, but his style of play lead to his injuries. Freakish luck with his cancer and the eye, but he was all class and a warrior throughout. But the bottom line is the Habs need size up front. We need a Galchenyuk, Forsberg, Wilson, Sutter, etc type. We have enough Gallaghers, MacMillan, etc in the system. Size matters in the NHL. Look at the remaining teams - lots of size, skill and toughness.

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05-11-2012, 07:48 AM
  #303
Grant McCagg
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Wasn't meaning to offend you McCagg, just that some people see you as an oracle. I respect your opinions but just don't see Teuvo as a guy the Habs need.

The only thing I'm offended by is your flawed reasoning.

The reason the Habs picked Fischer over Giroux was because of an apparent lack of size and defencemen in the organization..the reason Matt Higgins was selected over Danny Briere was because of a supposed lack of size in the organization...the reason Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis were selected ahead of much more skilled players was a supposed lack of size in the organization. The reason Marcel Hossa was selected was because of an apparent lack of size at center.....

That is perhaps the silliest reason not to pick the more skilled player in a draft...because just like Steve Yezerman or Joe Sakic TT is "only" 5-11. Go back to the Sakic draft and look at all the taller players taken ahead of him who couldn't carry his jockstrap.

TT is 17-years old is 5-11 and weighs 165 pounds - he's the youngest player in the draft. In his draft year Claude Giroux was 5-10 and about 150 pounds. He obviously did some more growing, and I would suspect TT isn't done growing yet either, even if it's muscle wise as opposed to height wise. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 years from now he's 6-0 and 180-190 pounds.

You draft a player with the thought that he will be a regular contributor in five years. DD Gionta and Plekanec all may have left the organization five years from now...who's to say the club might not be one of the largest in the league by then?

Pick the most skilled player with the most upside...period. The one thing this club, and pretty much every club for that matter, lacks is first-line forwards and even more specifically a first-line center. TT is one of the very few in this draft with that potential. He will be highly considered by the club.

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05-11-2012, 07:57 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
The only thing I'm offended by is your flawed reasoning.

The reason the Habs picked Fischer over Giroux was because of an apparent lack of size and defencemen in the organization..the reason Matt Higgins was selected over Danny Briere was because of a supposed lack of size in the organization...the reason Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis were selected ahead of much more skilled players was a supposed lack of size in the organization. The reason Marcel Hossa was selected was because of an apparent lack of size at center.....

That is perhaps the silliest reason not to pick the more skilled player in a draft...because just like Steve Yezerman or Joe Sakic TT is "only" 5-11. Go back to the Sakic draft and look at all the taller players taken ahead of him who couldn't carry his jockstrap.

TT is 17-years old is 5-11 and weighs 165 pounds - he's the youngest player in the draft. In his draft year Claude Giroux was 5-10 and about 150 pounds. He obviously did some more growing, and I would suspect TT isn't done growing yet either, even if it's muscle wise as opposed to height wise. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 years from now he's 6-0 and 180-190 pounds.

You draft a player with the thought that he will be a regular contributor in five years. DD Gionta and Plekanec all may have left the organization five years from now...who's to say the club might not be one of the largest in the league by then?

Pick the most skilled player with the most upside...period. The one thing this club, and pretty much every club for that matter, lacks is first-line forwards and even more specifically a first-line center. TT is one of the very few in this draft with that potential. He will be highly considered by the club.
Would you take him ahead of Galchenyuk though? He has similar skills, great intangibles and will be bigger(bonus).

I agree with your point on size, it's ridiculous to look for size in round 1 or 2. If you need to add size make trades, sign UFA's or draft bigger players late in the draft.

Some of the best players in the playoffs are hardly giants...Giroux Callahan Timonen Briere Parise Zidlicky Richards Whitney etc


Last edited by Monctonscout: 05-11-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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05-11-2012, 08:48 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
The only thing I'm offended by is your flawed reasoning.

The reason the Habs picked Fischer over Giroux was because of an apparent lack of size and defencemen in the organization..the reason Matt Higgins was selected over Danny Briere was because of a supposed lack of size in the organization...the reason Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis were selected ahead of much more skilled players was a supposed lack of size in the organization. The reason Marcel Hossa was selected was because of an apparent lack of size at center.....

That is perhaps the silliest reason not to pick the more skilled player in a draft...because just like Steve Yezerman or Joe Sakic TT is "only" 5-11. Go back to the Sakic draft and look at all the taller players taken ahead of him who couldn't carry his jockstrap.

TT is 17-years old is 5-11 and weighs 165 pounds - he's the youngest player in the draft. In his draft year Claude Giroux was 5-10 and about 150 pounds. He obviously did some more growing, and I would suspect TT isn't done growing yet either, even if it's muscle wise as opposed to height wise. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 years from now he's 6-0 and 180-190 pounds.

You draft a player with the thought that he will be a regular contributor in five years. DD Gionta and Plekanec all may have left the organization five years from now...who's to say the club might not be one of the largest in the league by then?

Pick the most skilled player with the most upside...period. The one thing this club, and pretty much every club for that matter, lacks is first-line forwards and even more specifically a first-line center. TT is one of the very few in this draft with that potential. He will be highly considered by the club.
Great post brotha!

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05-11-2012, 08:50 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
The only thing I'm offended by is your flawed reasoning.

The reason the Habs picked Fischer over Giroux was because of an apparent lack of size and defencemen in the organization..the reason Matt Higgins was selected over Danny Briere was because of a supposed lack of size in the organization...the reason Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis were selected ahead of much more skilled players was a supposed lack of size in the organization. The reason Marcel Hossa was selected was because of an apparent lack of size at center.....

That is perhaps the silliest reason not to pick the more skilled player in a draft...because just like Steve Yezerman or Joe Sakic TT is "only" 5-11. Go back to the Sakic draft and look at all the taller players taken ahead of him who couldn't carry his jockstrap.

TT is 17-years old is 5-11 and weighs 165 pounds - he's the youngest player in the draft. In his draft year Claude Giroux was 5-10 and about 150 pounds. He obviously did some more growing, and I would suspect TT isn't done growing yet either, even if it's muscle wise as opposed to height wise. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 years from now he's 6-0 and 180-190 pounds.

You draft a player with the thought that he will be a regular contributor in five years. DD Gionta and Plekanec all may have left the organization five years from now...who's to say the club might not be one of the largest in the league by then?

Pick the most skilled player with the most upside...period. The one thing this club, and pretty much every club for that matter, lacks is first-line forwards and even more specifically a first-line center. TT is one of the very few in this draft with that potential. He will be highly considered by the club.
Great post Grant. Boy, there were some brutal first round picks those years made to address the "size" issue. I must confess that I'm as guilty as anyone in wanting more size on the Habs but you don't take size over skill, especially with a high first round pick, or for that matter the second. You go for skill. I think CP is right, there are better ways to address the size issue.

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05-11-2012, 08:52 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Would you take him ahead of Galchenyuk though? He has similar skills, great intangibles and will be bigger(bonus).

I agree with your point on size, it's ridiculous to look for size in round 1 or 2. If you need to add size make trades, sign UFA's or draft bigger players late in the draft.

Some of the best players in the playoffs are hardly giants...Giroux Callahan Timonen Briere Parise Zidlicky Richards Whitney etc
Well - I have TT second and Galchenyuk third on my draft board so I'm happy with either selection. I think Gally is a riskier pick because of the knee injury...I think you also have to consider his upbringing and that there's always a possibility he either goes to the KHL at some point or uses it as leverage. Perhaps that will never happen but the possibility of it does exist. If I'm looking at a Finn and a Russian/Belarussian with equal skill I will take the Finn.

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05-11-2012, 08:59 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Well - I have TT second and Galchenyuk third on my draft board so I'm happy with either selection. I think Gally is a riskier pick because of the knee injury...I think you also have to consider his upbringing and that there's always a possibility he either goes to the KHL at some point or uses it as leverage. Perhaps that will never happen but the possibility of it does exist. If I'm looking at a Finn and a Russian/Belarussian with equal skill I will take the Finn.
Yeah. You can't really ignore the knee, at least until your Dr's have a look at the MRI's or do a physical. The Belorussian thing is a bit intriguing as he's lived all over, that's something that you would grill through in interviews, as you said if he still has ties there he could be attracted to the KHL in 2-3-4 years.

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05-11-2012, 09:02 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
The only thing I'm offended by is your flawed reasoning.

The reason the Habs picked Fischer over Giroux was because of an apparent lack of size and defencemen in the organization..the reason Matt Higgins was selected over Danny Briere was because of a supposed lack of size in the organization...the reason Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis were selected ahead of much more skilled players was a supposed lack of size in the organization. The reason Marcel Hossa was selected was because of an apparent lack of size at center.....

That is perhaps the silliest reason not to pick the more skilled player in a draft...because just like Steve Yezerman or Joe Sakic TT is "only" 5-11. Go back to the Sakic draft and look at all the taller players taken ahead of him who couldn't carry his jockstrap.

TT is 17-years old is 5-11 and weighs 165 pounds - he's the youngest player in the draft. In his draft year Claude Giroux was 5-10 and about 150 pounds. He obviously did some more growing, and I would suspect TT isn't done growing yet either, even if it's muscle wise as opposed to height wise. It wouldn't surprise me if 5 years from now he's 6-0 and 180-190 pounds.

You draft a player with the thought that he will be a regular contributor in five years. DD Gionta and Plekanec all may have left the organization five years from now...who's to say the club might not be one of the largest in the league by then?

Pick the most skilled player with the most upside...period. The one thing this club, and pretty much every club for that matter, lacks is first-line forwards and even more specifically a first-line center. TT is one of the very few in this draft with that potential. He will be highly considered by the club.

yeah yeah but the problem was we selected mid 15-25. It's a bigger risk there so we took chances. We are picking #3 now probably going to select bigger, talented guys with that pick unless its Yakupov. We aren't going to select a guy who's 5'10 Teravainen with the #3 overall pick when Murray, Forsberg, Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, Dumba are still available.

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05-11-2012, 09:05 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
yeah yeah but the problem was we selected mid 15-25. It's a bigger risk there so we took chances. We are picking #3 now probably going to select bigger, talented guys with that pick unless its Yakupov. We aren't going to select a guy who's 5'10 Teravainen with the #3 overall pick when Murray, Forsberg, Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, Dumba are still available.
Unless you think he is a notch above them skillwise.

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05-11-2012, 09:26 AM
  #311
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TT will pick TT?

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05-11-2012, 09:33 AM
  #312
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yeah yeah but the problem was we selected mid 15-25. It's a bigger risk there so we took chances. We are picking #3 now probably going to select bigger, talented guys with that pick unless its Yakupov. We aren't going to select a guy who's 5'10 Teravainen with the #3 overall pick when Murray, Forsberg, Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko, Dumba are still available.
Now he's down to 5-10..he's shrinking is he? By draft day some of you will be calling him a 5-8 dwarf I suspect.

Let's look at recent drafts and the "smaller" players selected in the top ten

Nugent-Hopkins - one inch taller than TT, same weight or perhaps even lighter in his draft year

Skinner - shorter than TT

Granlund - shorter than TT

Kane - shorter than TT

Boedker - same height as TT

Have any of them underachieved or disappointed? Hardly....in fact quite the opposite. Have there been taller players taken in the top ten who have not lived up to expectations? You betcha.

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05-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #313
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Now he's down to 5-10..he's shrinking is he? By draft day some of you will be calling him a 5-8 dwarf I suspect.

Let's look at recent drafts and the "smaller" players selected in the top ten

Nugent-Hopkins - one inch taller than TT, same weight or perhaps even lighter in his draft year

Skinner - shorter than TT

Granlund - shorter than TT

Kane - shorter than TT

Boedker - same height as TT

Have any of them underachieved or disappointed? Hardly....in fact quite the opposite Have there been taller players taken in the top ten who have not lived up to expectations? You betcha.
Would be interesting to look at the size and country of origin/league for top 10 busts from 1999 to 2009.

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05-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #314
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Fully agree. I hate the hate on him.

With a better team, an healthy knee, a better vision (injured eye) and if he hadn't have this cancer, Koivu would have had much better numbers and people would respect him much more.
I have the greatest respect in the world for Koivu and I think overcoming the many obstacles in his career makes me respect him even more. What really put him over the top for me was the way he handled a totally classless move by Gainey. I am happy that Anaheim offered him another contract... he deserved it.

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05-11-2012, 09:59 AM
  #315
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I had a dream we picked Galchenyuk at #2 (guess we traded up?).

I wouldn't read into it too much though, we picked a musician in the second round.

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05-11-2012, 10:05 AM
  #316
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I had a dream we picked Galchenyuk at #2 (guess we traded up?).

I wouldn't read into it too much though, we picked a musician in the second round.
He he. Was it "Babe Ruth"at least ?

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05-11-2012, 10:09 AM
  #317
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In regards to TT what is a fair expectation for him to be drafted or is he a true wildcard?

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05-11-2012, 10:20 AM
  #318
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He he. Was it "Babe Ruth"at least ?
Maybe it was Jerrod "Iron" Maidens

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05-11-2012, 10:24 AM
  #319
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In regards to TT what is a fair expectation for him to be drafted or is he a true wildcard?
The whole draft is a crapshoot. When you're not even sure if the consensus number one pick is going first overall.. you can never know.

All we know is the top players are Yakupov, Murray, Galchenyuk, Forsberg, Dumba, TT, Grigorenko and Trouba.

After that, the tier down contains Faksa, Collberg, Maata etc.

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05-11-2012, 10:36 AM
  #320
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In regards to TT what is a fair expectation for him to be drafted or is he a true wildcard?
I think this draft in general is a real wildcard. It is anyone's guess who goes where in the top ten starting at number one. I keep hearing Edmonton will take Murray, but I'm not hearing that they will necessarily trade down to get him. Who knows..if they traded down with the Isles for example...who's to say Columbus wouldn't take Murray at number two? Or perhaps Columbus takes Dumba? They've never selected a franchise dman....I keep hearing Forsberg is their guy but sometimes teams put out false indicators.

You hear that Toronto likes Galchenyuk..and the way things may shape up he could be there at five....or he may go to the Habs at three. Heck he may go to Columbus at two.

There is tremendous intrigue already and we're still six weeks from the draft.

I think TT could go anywhere from third overall to eighth, but at the end of the day might be the best player in the draft. I think several players have that potential. I'm not 100 per cent convinced that Yakupov will be the best NHLer from this draft, it's by no means a certified lock. I think you'll find that's the case in most drafts...more often than not the first player chosen isn't the best player from that draft class when their careers are all said and done.

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05-11-2012, 10:39 AM
  #321
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I had a dream we picked Galchenyuk at #2 (guess we traded up?).

I wouldn't read into it too much though, we picked a musician in the second round.
Sam Roberts? He is no longer draft eligible.

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05-11-2012, 10:40 AM
  #322
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I think this draft in general is a real wildcard. It is anyone's guess who goes where in the top ten starting at number one. I keep hearing Edmonton will take Murray, but I'm not hearing that they will necessarily trade down to get him. Who knows..if they traded down with the Isles for example...who's to say Columbus wouldn't take Murray at number two? Or perhaps Columbus takes Dumba? They've never selected a franchise dman....I keep hearing Forsberg is their guy but sometimes teams put out false indicators.

You hear that Toronto likes Galchenyuk..and the way things may shape up he could be there at five....or he may go to the Habs at three. Heck he may go to Columbus at two.

There is tremendous intrigue already and we're still six weeks from the draft.

I think TT could go anywhere from third overall to eighth, but at the end of the day might be the best player in the draft. I think several players have that potential. I'm not 100 per cent convinced that Yakupov will be the best NHLer from this draft, it's by no means a certified lock. I think you'll find that's the case in most drafts...more often than not the first player chosen isn't the best player from that draft class when their careers are all said and done.
Could you break down TT for us? Or at least point us in the direction of a good breakdown of him? In terms of diminutive euro prospects, and as productive as he's looked, I can't help but like Collberg a little better, just find Collbergs overall skillset more impressive.

Why is TT better than Collberg? Collberg is faster, has a better shot, and is even more aggressive from what I've seen...

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05-11-2012, 10:46 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I think this draft in general is a real wildcard. It is anyone's guess who goes where in the top ten starting at number one. I keep hearing Edmonton will take Murray, but I'm not hearing that they will necessarily trade down to get him. Who knows..if they traded down with the Isles for example...who's to say Columbus wouldn't take Murray at number two? Or perhaps Columbus takes Dumba? They've never selected a franchise dman....I keep hearing Forsberg is their guy but sometimes teams put out false indicators.

You hear that Toronto likes Galchenyuk..and the way things may shape up he could be there at five....or he may go to the Habs at three. Heck he may go to Columbus at two.

There is tremendous intrigue already and we're still six weeks from the draft.

I think TT could go anywhere from third overall to eighth, but at the end of the day might be the best player in the draft. I think several players have that potential. I'm not 100 per cent convinced that Yakupov will be the best NHLer from this draft, it's by no means a certified lock. I think you'll find that's the case in most drafts...more often than not the first player chosen isn't the best player from that draft class when their careers are all said and done.
Would Giroux be a good comparable for TT?

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05-11-2012, 11:12 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I think this draft in general is a real wildcard. It is anyone's guess who goes where in the top ten starting at number one. I keep hearing Edmonton will take Murray, but I'm not hearing that they will necessarily trade down to get him. Who knows..if they traded down with the Isles for example...who's to say Columbus wouldn't take Murray at number two? Or perhaps Columbus takes Dumba? They've never selected a franchise dman....I keep hearing Forsberg is their guy but sometimes teams put out false indicators.

You hear that Toronto likes Galchenyuk..and the way things may shape up he could be there at five....or he may go to the Habs at three. Heck he may go to Columbus at two.

There is tremendous intrigue already and we're still six weeks from the draft.

I think TT could go anywhere from third overall to eighth, but at the end of the day might be the best player in the draft. I think several players have that potential. I'm not 100 per cent convinced that Yakupov will be the best NHLer from this draft, it's by no means a certified lock. I think you'll find that's the case in most drafts...more often than not the first player chosen isn't the best player from that draft class when their careers are all said and done.
I have heard the "could be th best player in the draft" tag placed on three players, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko and TT.

I personally like Galchenyuk (I don't think his knee is a real issue anymore...but I ain't no Dr.....or scout), but, if Bergevin and Co. decide on TT, would he be better served to trade down to say #5 or 6 and get TT? Would TT likely be there? As a Finn, you know his style of play is very similar to a Canadian's, they like to play that gritty hart on your sleeve style too.

I ask because if you think you can get your guy a couple spots back why not trade down and snag another asset?




EDIT:

Shame to anyone who hates on Koivu. That man was all-heart and I WISH he were still with us and for more than the Gomez/McDonagh/Higgins debacle.

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05-11-2012, 11:20 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
I have heard the "could be th best player in the draft" tag placed on three players, Galchenyuk, Grigorenko and TT.

I personally like Galchenyuk (I don't think his knee is a real issue anymore...but I ain't no Dr.....or scout), but, if Bergevin and Co. decide on TT, would he be better served to trade down to say #5 or 6 and get TT? Would TT likely be there? As a Finn, you know his style of play is very similar to a Canadian's, they like to play that gritty hart on your sleeve style too.

I ask because if you think you can get your guy a couple spots back why not trade down and snag another asset?




EDIT:

Shame to anyone who hates on Koivu. That man was all-heart and I WISH he were still with us and for more than the Gomez/McDonagh/Higgins debacle.
Like Grant said, if you like a guy, you take him.

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