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The Official Jordan Staal Thread, Part III

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Old
05-11-2012, 08:59 AM
  #126
mpp9
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I don't see Shero basing his trades on making Staal's line a "scoring" line. He doesn't think that way. The best we can hope for is either keeping Staal or trading him for pieces and cap space to better surround Sid/Geno with talent and address needs on the backend.

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05-11-2012, 09:04 AM
  #127
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I don't particularly like the lines I said there, I'm just saying that's probably the closest we are going to come to having three scoring lines. I love your solution but really it comes down to your last sentence. It won't happen.
Nope . . . but Staal to wing? Nope . . . Malkin to wing? Maybe happen, but not a good idea . . . In the end, this is why Shero listens, as I keep saying. Someone offers a Richards deal + premium type of return, and Shero will move Staal. Anything short, any hedging, and Shero will hold his nose, give Staal the low 6M range it will take to sign him, and deal with the fallout later.

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I don't see Shero basing his trades on making Staal's line a "scoring" line. He doesn't think that way. The best we can hope for is either keeping Staal or trading him for pieces and cap space to better surround Sid/Geno with talent and address needs on the backend.
Agreed. Just noting that, if one is dead set against moving Staal, then my approach, rather than moving Staal or Malkin to wing or running diluted lines, might be a better option.

THAT SAID, if Staal is moved for pieces and/or cap space such that Sid and Geno BOTH play with two good wingers each, then perhaps have two lines where arguably the best center in hockey has two good wingers is a tougher matchup for another team than a three center model diluted by a lack of scoring line talent on the wings (again, scoring line talent being defined, not as a guy who can pot 20 during the regular season, but a guy who can make plays by himself and otherwise contribute to a line's playoff dominance).

Plus, as I keep saying, IF Bylsma would use Sid and Geno like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then that alone would go a long way towards mitigating the loss of Staal.

Funny . . . in a way, this all comes back to how Bylsma uses the pieces . . .

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05-11-2012, 09:39 AM
  #128
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I see zero reason why Staal shouldn't bring back as much as Burns if not more with the rumors already out there. I'd like to see a rumor come out that he's been made available to a select few teams. Then see who else gets involved.

Anyone remember how much hype Brown being available got on here? Teams are starving for guys to help them take the next step, whether it be making the playoffs or contending. Staal helps you win, period.

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05-11-2012, 09:54 AM
  #129
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I'm not arguing with you that it's nuts. BUT, here's the thing: This year, with Crosby out, Staal was on a 40 goal, 70 point pace playing with Sullivan and Dupuis. No team will expect him to do that as a third line center with Cooke and Kennedy.

THAT is why I keep saying Staal has next to nothing to lose and everything to gain by waiting to test free agency, because he knows another team will look, not at the third line center for Cooke and Kennedy, but the 24 year old kid who is still improving, has 70+ games of playoff experience, and has shown himself to be a 70+ point guy with inferior linemates any time an injury allows him to slot into a 2C spot. Teams will invest in that, not how Bylsma relegates Staal to a 3C role when Sid and Geno are healthy.

BUT, if Staal is moved, then the dynamic changes. Whatever team gets him will thrust him into that 1C role. Having made the mega deal, that team will try to lock Staal up to a high 6M+ deal right there. And, it will be in Staal's interest to sign unless he's absolutely opposed to playing for that team (which probably means the deal wouldn't have happened anyway, because no team would trade for him knowing that). It's in Staal's interest to sign before the new CBA and to sign before he gets a full season in that 1C role for a new organization because he'll be getting the money and the role he'd be looking for on July 1, 2013.
I don't think a team will trade for him to be a 1C. I really don't. I think a team will trade for him looking for a great 2nd line center.


And don't underestimate a player's will to accept a situation he's really happy with. If Staal is really happy here, maybe he takes the 1 bird in hand when Shero offers him a contract this summer? Like I said, he'll be making about 30 million regardless, which is more than enough to set himself up for life. Re-signing this summer, yeah it'd probably cost him a lot of money, but he's also taking on risk not re-signing. We can go into the potential of injury thing, where if he gets injured next year, that hampers his ability in free agency, also, he'd have heightened expectations where ever else he goes, and he has no idea how other organizations operate, or if he'll like the other city as much as he does Pittsburgh.

I think if Shero brings a market deal to him and his agency, he signs it and doesn't ever look back. That's a smart business decision, IMO. Take what you are given, along with what you know is working for you (of course, if it is indeed working for him, which no one really knows).

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05-11-2012, 10:18 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post

I think if Shero brings a market deal to him and his agency, he signs it and doesn't ever look back. That's a smart business decision, IMO. Take what you are given, along with what you know is working for you (of course, if it is indeed working for him, which no one really knows).
How much do you think that is? I still think we could spend Staal's market value on something that would help us more. Unless I am overestimating his market value.

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05-11-2012, 10:31 AM
  #131
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Staal's market value isn't worth us resigning him. Tough to admit, but that's how I feel. If we can find a solid overpayment for him in a trade, I'd pull the trigger.

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05-11-2012, 10:37 AM
  #132
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Staal's market value isn't worth us resigning him. Tough to admit, but that's how I feel. If we can find a solid overpayment for him in a trade, I'd pull the trigger.
If we knew we could sign Parise this off-season that would make it an easier transition

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05-11-2012, 10:38 AM
  #133
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Staal's market value isn't worth us resigning him. Tough to admit, but that's how I feel. If we can find a solid overpayment for him in a trade, I'd pull the trigger.
I agree with this but I'm basing it on what I assume rather than what I know about Staal. He may really love the Pens and want to stay. If I was a betting man, I'd say he'd like to see his options in free agency or a trade. Time will tell.

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05-11-2012, 10:44 AM
  #134
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I see Staal being able to get 6-6.5 mil from contenders. He's not worth that to us as a 3C or winger.

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05-11-2012, 10:49 AM
  #135
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I see Staal being able to get 6-6.5 mil from contenders. He's not worth that to us as a 3C or winger.
I agree. I think that's the biggest reason why it's time to move on.

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05-11-2012, 11:11 AM
  #136
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I don't think a team will trade for him to be a 1C. I really don't. I think a team will trade for him looking for a great 2nd line center.


And don't underestimate a player's will to accept a situation he's really happy with. If Staal is really happy here, maybe he takes the 1 bird in hand when Shero offers him a contract this summer? Like I said, he'll be making about 30 million regardless, which is more than enough to set himself up for life. Re-signing this summer, yeah it'd probably cost him a lot of money, but he's also taking on risk not re-signing. We can go into the potential of injury thing, where if he gets injured next year, that hampers his ability in free agency, also, he'd have heightened expectations where ever else he goes, and he has no idea how other organizations operate, or if he'll like the other city as much as he does Pittsburgh.

I think if Shero brings a market deal to him and his agency, he signs it and doesn't ever look back. That's a smart business decision, IMO. Take what you are given, along with what you know is working for you (of course, if it is indeed working for him, which no one really knows).
I hope you're right about where Staal's 'market value' is and his willingness to accept that number. I just have my doubts about it.

I also think Toronto, for one, would trade for him to be their #1 center, Buffalo too. Others, like Carolina and Minny, might trade for him to be their #2 center but will pay him like a #1.

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I see Staal being able to get 6-6.5 mil from contenders. He's not worth that to us as a 3C or winger.
Agreed, and I think more from a team like Toronto (and perhaps even more still if he stayed put and waited until July 1, 2013).

I don't know if Shero moves him. Push comes to shove and we're only talking 'fair' offers, and Shero, I think, will give him the 6M+ (my guess is 6.25M) and deal with the fallout later. BUT, he's going to listen to see if someone will give him that Richards plus a premium type of return. He gets that, and I think he moves Staal. And, I actually think he'll get it.

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05-11-2012, 11:19 AM
  #137
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If we knew we could sign Parise this off-season that would make it an easier transition
ya I said the same thing. The problem is that we would probably get more for Staal in a trade before signing Parise, but we don't want to get into the situation where we already traded Staal before we know we have Parise.

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05-11-2012, 11:22 AM
  #138
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I'm not giving Staal and Tangradi for Kulemin, Ashton, and the 5th overall. Neither is Shero. If he's not high on Schenn (and he might not be), then I could see Staal for Kulemin, Bozak (3rd line short term filler), Ashton, and the 5th overall. Shero is going to squeeze teams if he moves Staal. It will be about the offer that makes him stop hedging, not a 'fair' offer.
I'm in agreement with you as far as acquiring Kulemin. I don't think we need Staal to do it though. And if we got Bozak, sooner or later we'd run into a similar issue with him that we have with Staal.

I think we could pick up Kulemin's rights for a pick, a D prospect or even Lovejoy. From what I've read, his value isn't very high with the Leafs ... and how he was moved around the line up this season seems to enforce that.

If we're moving Staal, then I'd rather see him go for a winger for Sid. I'm probably going to catch grief for this, but I think Jeffrey would be just fine as the third line center. He filled the role well enough when given the opportunity this season. There will probably be some growing pains, but I think they can be offset with having Cookie and Duper on his wings.

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05-11-2012, 11:31 AM
  #139
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I'm in agreement with you as far as acquiring Kulemin. I don't think we need Staal to do it though. And if we got Bozak, sooner or later we'd run into a similar issue with him that we have with Staal.

I think we could pick up Kulemin's rights for a pick, a D prospect or even Lovejoy. From what I've read, his value isn't very high with the Leafs ... and how he was moved around the line up this season seems to enforce that.

If we're moving Staal, then I'd rather see him go for a winger for Sid. I'm probably going to catch grief for this, but I think Jeffrey would be just fine as the third line center. He filled the role well enough when given the opportunity this season. There will probably be some growing pains, but I think they can be offset with having Cookie and Duper on his wings.
The point with acquiring Kulemin is that you then can slide Kunitz back with Sid.

Two deals . . . Staal for Kulemin, Bozak, Ashton, and the 5th overall. Then, TK and Martin for Malone. Here are your lines . . .

Kunitz-Sid-Neal (see, Sid gets his linemates . . . )
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin (I'd have no problem with this)

Then, you'd have a Cooke-Bozak-Dupuis checking line and a Tangradi-Vitale-Ashton kids line. Or, you swap Bozak and Vitale. Either way, the point would be to use Sid and Geno more in all situations . . .

Plus, you'd have the 5th overall pick in your back pocket, someone who could contribute himself next year.

EDIT: Oh ****, I just realized this won't work. Craig Adams isn't a starter.

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05-11-2012, 11:50 AM
  #140
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The point with acquiring Kulemin is that you then can slide Kunitz back with Sid.

Two deals . . . Staal for Kulemin, Bozak, Ashton, and the 5th overall. Then, TK and Martin for Malone. Here are your lines . . .

Kunitz-Sid-Neal (see, Sid gets his linemates . . . )
Malone-Malkin-Kulemin (I'd have no problem with this)

Then, you'd have a Cooke-Bozak-Dupuis checking line and a Tangradi-Vitale-Ashton kids line. Or, you swap Bozak and Vitale. Either way, the point would be to use Sid and Geno more in all situations . . .

Plus, you'd have the 5th overall pick in your back pocket, someone who could contribute himself next year.

EDIT: Oh ****, I just realized this won't work. Craig Adams isn't a starter.
I get what you're saying ... my point is that if we acquire Bozak we'd find ourselves in the same place we are with Staal. There's no doubt that Bozak would be an exceptional third line center. However, scouting reports projected him as a second line center and he's been centering the top line in Toronto ... how happy is he going to be playing behind Sid and Geno? And when he is UFA at the end of next season just like Staal ....

I'm all for adding Kulemin to Geno's line and moving Kunitz back with Sid ... and I'm all for bundling Staal with either Martin or Orpik. I just think we can get Kulemin without using Staal ... which means we can then trade Staal and Martin/Orpik for a winger for Sid and some additional return that fills a need. Like maybe something centered on Staal + Orpik/Martin for something centered around Seto + Harding.

Personally, I'm not as big on Stewart as a winger for Sid as others ... my concern is whether he could keep pace with Sid. A good offseason conditioning wise might make a difference, but I would rather look elsewhere.

::EDIT:: Failed to note, Harding would have to be re-signed at an 'acceptable' cap hit ... also not a big fan of Malone's cap hit


Last edited by DegenX: 05-11-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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05-11-2012, 11:57 AM
  #141
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Stewart's a better skater than Neal. He'll need to get his conditioning in order in the offseason though. He's a risk for sure. His work ethic and hockey sense are questionable at times. But playing here is the best scenario for him with respect to our coach, system, centers and how he'd get an opportunity on the 1st unit PP as a RHS.

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05-11-2012, 12:07 PM
  #142
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Stewart's a better skater than Neal. He'll need to get his conditioning in order in the offseason though. He's a risk for sure. His work ethic and hockey sense are questionable at times. But playing here is the best scenario for him with respect to our coach, system, centers and how he'd get an opportunity on the 1st unit PP as a RHS.
Stewart can fly and carry the puck himself. He is only going to be 25 in Oct and he has a ton of potential and room to get better and become dominant. Big guys like Stevens and Glen Murray didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties, don't forget.

I think he would blow up here and with his poor season and playoffs, plus the Blues fwd depth throughout the org, it makes the perfect storm for Shero to grab him.

Just not sure what Shero would have to give up.

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05-11-2012, 12:16 PM
  #143
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Stewart can fly and carry the puck himself. He is only going to be 25 in Oct and he has a ton of potential and room to get better and become dominant. Big guys like Stevens and Glen Murray didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties, don't forget.

I think he would blow up here and with his poor season and playoffs, plus the Blues fwd depth throughout the org, it makes the perfect storm for Shero to grab him.

Just not sure what Shero would have to give up.
Agreed. He's ripe for the picking. We may not get another chance to get another 40 goal scorer so cheap via trade.

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05-11-2012, 12:24 PM
  #144
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Staal to Carolina

Pretty much every 'Cane is either off the table or untouchable, and the rest don't meet the price.

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05-11-2012, 12:28 PM
  #145
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Pretty much every 'Cane is either off the table or untouchable, and the rest don't meet the price.
Cane fans think he is coming there in UFA to play with Eric, so why give anything up for him.

I try not to laugh when I read their posts, but it is hard not to.

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05-11-2012, 12:33 PM
  #146
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Cane fans think he is coming there in UFA to play with Eric, so why give anything up for him.

I try not to laugh when I read their posts, but it is hard not to.
Tim Brent, Tuomo Ruutu, and a 3rd!

I don't think the two sides make good partners for various reasons. But seeing them try to negotiate has been humorous.

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05-11-2012, 12:35 PM
  #147
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Stewart can fly and carry the puck himself. He is only going to be 25 in Oct and he has a ton of potential and room to get better and become dominant. Big guys like Stevens and Glen Murray didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties, don't forget.

I think he would blow up here and with his poor season and playoffs, plus the Blues fwd depth throughout the org, it makes the perfect storm for Shero to grab him.

Just not sure what Shero would have to give up.
One name you've mentioned in the past that I think is totally gettable is Evander Kane. Thats a great fit for the Pens and someone that we should be talking more about.

Another is Frolik. He oozes skill. He's a little soft but he is active and can play a Voracek style game of puck get. To be honest I don't even think he's that soft. He gets involved but is still way to skill. Thats an easy thing to build up and the Pens can make him a star.

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05-11-2012, 12:35 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Cane fans think he is coming there in UFA to play with Eric, so why give anything up for him.

I try not to laugh when I read their posts, but it is hard not to.
Yeah, I don't think Staal gets close to UFA. We will either re-sign him or some other team will trade for him and throw a bigger role and truckload of cash his way to keep him from UFA. Players like Staal just don't hit UFA that often.

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05-11-2012, 12:37 PM
  #149
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Stewart can fly and carry the puck himself. He is only going to be 25 in Oct and he has a ton of potential and room to get better and become dominant. Big guys like Stevens and Glen Murray didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties, don't forget.

I think he would blow up here and with his poor season and playoffs, plus the Blues fwd depth throughout the org, it makes the perfect storm for Shero to grab him.

Just not sure what Shero would have to give up.
With the way he played this season and being a healthy scratch in the playoffs, I honestly don't think they can ask for anything more than a draft pick.

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05-11-2012, 12:37 PM
  #150
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OK, I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of Stewart, but I'm willing to concede the point to those whose knowledge exceeds my own. Add in that Stewart himself has said this is a big summer for him and that if he is traded it would be his third team in a relatively short space of time, I'll accept that he would be motivated. I doubt that it would take any more for his rights than it would for Kulemin's.

If we acquire Stewart and Kulemin, that would take care of wingers for Sid and Geno ... and Staal wouldn't need to be used in either acquisition ... so then what do we do with him? Center a trade around him to address needs on defense and a back up goaltender? Or keep him and hope that something can be worked out that meets his needs as a player?

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