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Old
05-12-2012, 10:51 AM
  #26
Qubax
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I think alot of that depends on whether or not they can get Ramo over here next season. I actually think that Gio is the most likely to be moved at this point as he would be the easiest to replace via FA compared to Iggy or Kipper. I do think its almost a certainty that one of Iggy, Kipper or Gio is going to be moved though, if that does not happen then you cannot significantly reshape the identity of this team. Every other deal would be a lateral trade.
I like many wouldn't mind dealing all three of them. Or atleast Iggy and Kipper and leaving Gio as a part of the new core moving forward.

But, don't you get the feeling that when Brent and the Flames parted ways that meant that management on some level was siding with Iginla? Probably meaning they aren't trading Iginla, but also probably meaning they aren't trading Kipper or Gio as that would signal a rebuild and Iginla doesn't want to go through a rebuild.

If anything Cervenka, while younger - sure, is a sign that the Flames are retooling to compete now. Will it work? I highly doubt it. But it certainly seems to be the intention of Ownership(and thusly management?)

And Jarome wants to stay. Especially if they keep the core together, and try and add to it and try and win now.

I think Brent wanted some fresh faces, ideas, younger -supple, teachable minds....

...basically the reason he's at the worlds....with Eberle, RNH, Ryan Murray and soon to be his new, young....rebuilding....teachable...Oilers team.

The Flames and Brent parting ways I think meant further satiation of Iginla. Which means not rebuilding. Which means not trading Kipper or Gio.

I TOTALLY disagree with the direction the Flames are trying to go. But I disagree that it is a certainty that one of Gio, Kipper, Iginla is moved this off season.


Last edited by Qubax: 05-12-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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05-12-2012, 12:02 PM
  #27
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I think the Bruins, Pens and Flyers would be the best bet for Iggy.

All three teams already have the pieces in place to win a cup, and the leadership to insure Iggy doesn't have to take the full brunt of critism and responsibility like he has in Calgary for his entire career to-date.

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05-12-2012, 12:16 PM
  #28
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Some rumours that Bouwmeester and Kipper may be available.

IF we were to trade either or both of them. This would signify a rebuild...

in which case....doesn't Jarome get dealt too?

In which case we would finally be blowing things up and starting from scratch!?... I hope so.

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05-12-2012, 01:15 PM
  #29
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Some rumours that Bouwmeester and Kipper may be available.

IF we were to trade either or both of them. This would signify a rebuild...

in which case....doesn't Jarome get dealt too?

In which case we would finally be blowing things up and starting from scratch!?... I hope so.
I believe if we move Kipper/Jbow it won't be for picks but nhl ready talent like the regehr trade in which case Iginla would still be seen as an asset to this team and not a trading piece.

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05-12-2012, 01:15 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post

Has been. You left out "has been" one of the best 30+ goal scorers. There are no guarantees going forward. I personally do not believe Iginla will break 30 goals again in his career and is trending to 20-25 goals in a couple of seasons after being close to 30 the this next season and possibly the one after. He's got probably 75-100 goals left in him. That's what you're paying for, not the past accomplishments.

I think the best comparable would be Bourque in Boston and his deal out of there. Was Bourque and Andreychuk for Rolston, Grenier, Pahlsson and a 1st a top dollar?
You keep spewing the same thing over and over so I am not going to respond to most of it. But two things:

No one knows going forward what his production will be. But your expectations are at the low end of the spectrum - you may turn out to be right, but nonetheless, most people expect more from him. As a GM, you would be an idiot to demand a return based on the low end of expectaions. You try to find a trading partner who is at the optimistic end of the spectrum but at the very least, you work with middle to top half. The majority of GMs in the league would see Iggy as a good bet to pot 35 or so for each of the next two years on a good roster. And then start to regress from there.

As for Bourque - terrible comparison and shows how badly you are missing the mark with Iggy. Bourque was 38 when traded and had been considering retiring for at least a couple years (it was an annual watch). The Avs fully understood that they were getting a 39 year old who was long past being great and was coming over for either one or two years as a veteran leader and dressing room guy.

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05-12-2012, 02:10 PM
  #31
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I like many wouldn't mind dealing all three of them. Or atleast Iggy and Kipper and leaving Gio as a part of the new core moving forward.

But, don't you get the feeling that when Brent and the Flames parted ways that meant that management on some level was siding with Iginla? Probably meaning they aren't trading Iginla, but also probably meaning they aren't trading Kipper or Gio as that would signal a rebuild and Iginla doesn't want to go through a rebuild.

If anything Cervenka, while younger - sure, is a sign that the Flames are retooling to compete now. Will it work? I highly doubt it. But it certainly seems to be the intention of Ownership(and thusly management?)

And Jarome wants to stay. Especially if they keep the core together, and try and add to it and try and win now.

I think Brent wanted some fresh faces, ideas, younger -supple, teachable minds....

...basically the reason he's at the worlds....with Eberle, RNH, Ryan Murray and soon to be his new, young....rebuilding....teachable...Oilers team.

The Flames and Brent parting ways I think meant further satiation of Iginla. Which means not rebuilding. Which means not trading Kipper or Gio.

I TOTALLY disagree with the direction the Flames are trying to go. But I disagree that it is a certainty that one of Gio, Kipper, Iginla is moved this off season.
I just don't see how it is possible for Feaster to go into camp without trading on of those 3, and I'll add Bouwmeester to that list as well. This roster has now missed the post season 3 years in a row, and going into the season with the same core, a year older, with the addition of Cervenka and maybe 1 or 2 mid level FA's isn't going to change jack****. You hear Feaster say all the time that they need to be intellectually honest with themselves, and everybody in the hockey worlds knows that our team as is is not a contender and a fringe playoff team. To make a fundamental change, you need to move 'at least' one fundamental player from the core. Last year it was Regehr, this season I'm sure one more key name will be on the chopping block. I just hope for * sakes that Feaster acquires some top end talent this time around. I don't mind Byron and Butler, but I think he should of done better with even getting one player back, someone like an Adam or Ennis.

Because its still playoffs and there's a trade freeze and we haven't named a coach yet, everything is very quiet, but I expect come draft time we will have a better idea who may shipped out.

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05-12-2012, 02:50 PM
  #32
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I just don't see how it is possible for Feaster to go into camp without trading on of those 3, and I'll add Bouwmeester to that list as well. This roster has now missed the post season 3 years in a row, and going into the season with the same core, a year older, with the addition of Cervenka and maybe 1 or 2 mid level FA's isn't going to change jack****. You hear Feaster say all the time that they need to be intellectually honest with themselves, and everybody in the hockey worlds knows that our team as is is not a contender and a fringe playoff team. To make a fundamental change, you need to move 'at least' one fundamental player from the core. Last year it was Regehr, this season I'm sure one more key name will be on the chopping block. I just hope for * sakes that Feaster acquires some top end talent this time around. I don't mind Byron and Butler, but I think he should of done better with even getting one player back, someone like an Adam or Ennis.

Because its still playoffs and there's a trade freeze and we haven't named a coach yet, everything is very quiet, but I expect come draft time we will have a better idea who may shipped out.
Good points.

They could deal 1 core guy, although not Kipper, and still compete if the deal was a retooling.

Maybe that is the route they go.

If the Flames deal Kipper in any way shape or form, or Kipper AND Bouw then the Flames are certainly lottery picking it...and you would think Jarome would also want to move on as well...

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05-12-2012, 03:15 PM
  #33
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Good points.

They could deal 1 core guy, although not Kipper, and still compete if the deal was a retooling.

Maybe that is the route they go.

If the Flames deal Kipper in any way shape or form, or Kipper AND Bouw then the Flames are certainly lottery picking it...and you would think Jarome would also want to move on as well...
I think the best core guy to trade is Kipper because that's the only position we're really deep in prospect wise. Iggy, despite all these years, is still the most talented forward we have. It would be that much harder to replace his 65 pts, especially during a year where we couldn't reach 200 goals.

Defensively, that's where we are the weakest prospect wise, but there's some D on the UFA market that could do the job and we could land. Giordano and Kipper could go, but we would need a top 4 defensemen coming back in order to attempt the playoffs.

Regardless about which core members leave now, next year, under with a new coach, will ultimately decide if we're going to blow' er up or not. And then all core members will be out door. I hope to god we have a good enough prospect pool if that happens because right now, I don't think we have good enough talent coming up.

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05-12-2012, 03:20 PM
  #34
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I know a lot of fans are howling for a rebuild asap. However I think trading Iggy makes the most sense at the deadline where GM's always overpay for guys on 1 year contracts. Just look at what Gaustad got.
At the Deadline the flames will likely be able to get a 1st, a roster player, and a great proispect minimum. Plus it will be easier for the other team to obsorb his cap hit as it will be mostly paid.
You do not often see big name goalies traded as rentals at the deadline so I think that if they wish to trade Kipper it should be in the off season. It has been posted all over the place but I feel that a deal with Chicago for Crawford and a prospect would make a lot of sense.
What if the Flames are pushing again like the have the past 3 years where they are on the brink yet again? I'm willing to say that they're going to keep him again and be buyers. If I were Flames management, you have to consider all deals now. Trade Deadline is too much of a risk for the Flames Organization.

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05-12-2012, 04:00 PM
  #35
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Iggy, despite all these years, is still the most talented forward we have. It would be that much harder to replace his 65 pts, especially during a year where we couldn't reach 200 goals.
I'm on the side that we should move Iggy for the right deal. I'm not saying your wrong, but I think Cammy will have a legitimate shot of equaling Iggy's point totals next year (65-70). We actually have a lot of young forwards coming up that we need to make room for. Backlund, Horak, Byron, Nemisz, and Baertschi. Not saying all those guys will be ready next season, but they are all least close. Then you throw Cammy, Cervenka and Glencross' names in that mix and it is already a crowded top 9.

Btw, if we move Iggy then I want Tangs gone to. There's no point to keep him.

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05-12-2012, 05:53 PM
  #36
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I'm on the side that we should move Iggy for the right deal. I'm not saying your wrong, but I think Cammy will have a legitimate shot of equaling Iggy's point totals next year (65-70). We actually have a lot of young forwards coming up that we need to make room for. Backlund, Horak, Byron, Nemisz, and Baertschi. Not saying all those guys will be ready next season, but they are all least close. Then you throw Cammy, Cervenka and Glencross' names in that mix and it is already a crowded top 9.

Btw, if we move Iggy then I want Tangs gone to. There's no point to keep him.
Its because of what ive seen from Horak, Byron, Nemisz and Bouma
do I think that this team can't go forward with a full rebuild. They were weak on the puck, displayed average speed and hockey sense, and simply didn't look like they were top six capable. I hope I'm wrong, but a top six of Cervenka, Cammy, Stajan, Baerstchi, Tangs, and Glencross won't provide 100 goals. Especially against top line defenders.

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05-12-2012, 06:25 PM
  #37
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You keep spewing the same thing over and over so I am not going to respond to most of it. But two things:

No one knows going forward what his production will be. But your expectations are at the low end of the spectrum - you may turn out to be right, but nonetheless, most people expect more from him. As a GM, you would be an idiot to demand a return based on the low end of expectaions. You try to find a trading partner who is at the optimistic end of the spectrum but at the very least, you work with middle to top half. The majority of GMs in the league would see Iggy as a good bet to pot 35 or so for each of the next two years on a good roster. And then start to regress from there.
Low end? Keep dreaming fanboy. Look at the list of 500+ goal scorers and then look at their production in the tail ends of their careers. That will tell you what to expect from Iginla. I feel I was being really generous saying Iginla will score 100 more goals in his career. You are aware that 100 more goals would put Iginla in the top 15 goal scorers in NHL history? That would be an impressive accomplishment, and extremely unlikely. Like I say, look at the list and the production of those players down the stretch of their careers.

Any GM that thinks Iginla can score 35 goals for each of the net two seasons should be immediately fired from his job. History says otherwise. Iginla's personal play says otherwise. Iginla was a great player, still remains a very good player, but time and the style of play in the league are going to take their toll.

Quote:
As for Bourque - terrible comparison and shows how badly you are missing the mark with Iggy. Bourque was 38 when traded and had been considering retiring for at least a couple years (it was an annual watch). The Avs fully understood that they were getting a 39 year old who was long past being great and was coming over for either one or two years as a veteran leader and dressing room guy.
Find a comparable then. Bourque is the best from I can find, since people hate the comparison between Guerin and Iginla. I think you sell Bourque short, who really only lost his desire to play once he hoisted the Stanley Cup. Bourque was a great player right up until the end. I guess you forget that Bourque scored 59 points in his final season, only 8 less than Iginla this past season.

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05-12-2012, 08:29 PM
  #38
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Low end? Keep dreaming fanboy. Look at the list of 500+ goal scorers and then look at their production in the tail ends of their careers. That will tell you what to expect from Iginla. I feel I was being really generous saying Iginla will score 100 more goals in his career. You are aware that 100 more goals would put Iginla in the top 15 goal scorers in NHL history? That would be an impressive accomplishment, and extremely unlikely. Like I say, look at the list and the production of those players down the stretch of their careers.

Any GM that thinks Iginla can score 35 goals for each of the net two seasons should be immediately fired from his job. History says otherwise. Iginla's personal play says otherwise. Iginla was a great player, still remains a very good player, but time and the style of play in the league are going to take their toll.



Find a comparable then. Bourque is the best from I can find, since people hate the comparison between Guerin and Iginla. I think you sell Bourque short, who really only lost his desire to play once he hoisted the Stanley Cup. Bourque was a great player right up until the end. I guess you forget that Bourque scored 59 points in his final season, only 8 less than Iginla this past season.
That's it - come back with an insult. That's all I need to know about you.

I am no fanboy and I have seen more than a few 500 goal scorers (there's a reason my name is what it is).

You are welcome to your opinion but that is all it is, yet you restate it in every thread like it is fact.

You're right about one thing though - Bourque is a better comparable than Guerin. But for me, Brett Hull is a far better comparison: a pure goal scorer, the Blues traded him when he was 34 and had scored 554 goals. He played 6 more full seasons, scoring another 197 goals including 4 more 30 goal campaigns.

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05-12-2012, 10:51 PM
  #39
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Jarome Iginla is no Brett Hull. Hull actually committed himself to playing more of a two way game in his later years. Iginla is going the opposite. I'll tell you what. How about a little bet. Iginla scores 35 goals next season and I'll never come back to the site. Iginla scores less than that and you are gone. Deal?

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05-12-2012, 11:05 PM
  #40
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I'll tell you what. How about a little bet. Iginla scores 35 goals next season and I'll never come back to the site. Iginla scores less than that and you are gone. Deal?
That is a serious bet right there.

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05-13-2012, 12:02 AM
  #41
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That is a serious bet right there.
I would prefer he just stop showing up since no one wants him here anyways

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05-13-2012, 12:32 AM
  #42
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That's the last thing this team needs. If the rumblings from past coaches mean anything there is a problem in the room and you do not want that problem to rub off on the young players. This team needs a change of direction and that will only start with Iginla's departure. The same arguments about keeping Iginla are the same ones people made about keeping Fleury. There comes a time when a player needs to move on, for the team's sake and for the player's sake. That time has come with Iginla. We can celebrate his past successes when they hoist his jersey to the rafters, but moving forward it would be best if he played elsewhere and the Flames focused on building a new core and a new identity.
Throughout his career Iggy has made the players around him better, every single year. You haven't been watching the Flames long if you can't see that.

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05-13-2012, 12:36 AM
  #43
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I would prefer he just stop showing up since no one wants him here anyways

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05-13-2012, 12:59 AM
  #44
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Jarome Iginla is no Brett Hull. Hull actually committed himself to playing more of a two way game in his later years. Iginla is going the opposite. I'll tell you what. How about a little bet. Iginla scores 35 goals next season and I'll never come back to the site. Iginla scores less than that and you are gone. Deal?
What are you - 12?

I come here to discuss the Flames and hockey. Whether you do or don't also is of no concern to me.

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05-13-2012, 08:29 AM
  #45
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What are you - 12?

I come here to discuss the Flames and hockey. Whether you do or don't also is of no concern to me.
Saw that coming. Really convinced about your belief in Iggy's abilities, I see. Fair enough. So talk hockey then. What is it in Iginla's game leads you to believe he still has 35 goals a season in him?

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05-13-2012, 08:45 AM
  #46
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Throughout his career Iggy has made the players around him better, every single year. You haven't been watching the Flames long if you can't see that.
He has, has he? Then why the never ending search for that elusive number one center? Why the continual recycling of players to play with Iggy? That is a pretty strong indicator that the team believes Iginla is capable of more, not that he elevates the game of others. Iginla was a great player, and still remains a very good scorer, but he was hardly the player who elevated the game of others. That is part of the leadership conundrum for the team. The guy that is supposed to elevate the performance of the team has shown he is incapable of doing just that and it shows in the results and disappointments.

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05-13-2012, 09:32 AM
  #47
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He has, has he? Then why the never ending search for that elusive number one center? Why the continual recycling of players to play with Iggy? That is a pretty strong indicator that the team believes Iginla is capable of more, not that he elevates the game of others. Iginla was a great player, and still remains a very good scorer, but he was hardly the player who elevated the game of others. That is part of the leadership conundrum for the team. The guy that is supposed to elevate the performance of the team has shown he is incapable of doing just that and it shows in the results and disappointments.
Yeah, I'm sure Cammy, Tanguay, Conroy, Langkow and more from the long list of players who have had great years with Iginla would agree with you...Watching what you are typing is painful.

Iggy could never hit 30 goals again, I mean he's only done it for 11 years, but yeah this year he'll finally be "too old". It is even more improbable that if he went to a team with a great group of top 6 centres (Boston) that he will hit 30+ goals, we must all be dreaming right?


Your leadership rant is priceless, show me some quotes. Otherwise all you are doing is interpreting quotes from old coaches on their way out. If that suits your Iginla hate train then good for you, but don't cry foul when no one is listening.

Seriously dude, wow.

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05-13-2012, 10:56 AM
  #48
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Blind hate =/= logic.

Some of the comments in this thread are proof of that.

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05-13-2012, 12:13 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
He has, has he? Then why the never ending search for that elusive number one center? Why the continual recycling of players to play with Iggy? That is a pretty strong indicator that the team believes Iginla is capable of more, not that he elevates the game of others. Iginla was a great player, and still remains a very good scorer, but he was hardly the player who elevated the game of others. That is part of the leadership conundrum for the team. The guy that is supposed to elevate the performance of the team has shown he is incapable of doing just that and it shows in the results and disappointments.


Sometimes, when you have no idea what you are talking about, you should just stop talking. You've talked yourself into a corner and you aren't even making sense anymore. I'm honestly questioning if you have ever watched a Flames game in your life.

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05-13-2012, 07:52 PM
  #50
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Its because of what ive seen from Horak, Byron, Nemisz and Bouma
do I think that this team can't go forward with a full rebuild. They were weak on the puck, displayed average speed and hockey sense, and simply didn't look like they were top six capable. I hope I'm wrong, but a top six of Cervenka, Cammy, Stajan, Baerstchi, Tangs, and Glencross won't provide 100 goals. Especially against top line defenders.
Thats true, but if Iginla was traded don't forget about the return that we would have coming back.

Like I said, if Iggy got moved, I'd want Tangs gone to and I'm sure he would oblige. There's just no point to keep him. So our top 9 would be something like:

Cammy Cervenka Glencross
Baertschi Backlund Comeau
Byron Stajan/Horak Nemisz/Moss

That lineup does leave alot to be desired, but Jokinen could be resigned, another winger could be signed for the top 6, and other holes would be filled from the assets we got from dealing Iginla and Tangs etc. So while it doesn't look great, we don't know what would be coming back, but there is potential and flexibility with that lineup.

Or, we could just totally suck and draft McKinnon.

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