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Habs Have Interest in Trading for Evander Kane (e3)

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Old
05-12-2012, 11:18 AM
  #176
bigplay41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
I guess 30 goals at age 20 is nothing special.....

Since 2000 there have been 11 other players to do so:
Bergeron
Crosby
Gaborik
Kopitar
Kovalchuk
Malkin
Nash
Ovechkin
Skinner
Stamkos
Toews



No big deal.

Who are those guys?? Never heard of em!!

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05-12-2012, 11:23 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
I guess 30 goals at age 20 is nothing special.....

Since 2000 there have been 11 other players to do so:
Bergeron
Crosby
Gaborik
Kopitar
Kovalchuk
Malkin
Nash
Ovechkin
Skinner
Stamkos
Toews

No big deal.
Except all of those players did it in their first or second season in the NHL, many scoring much more than 30.

Yay, arbitrary cutoffs to make it seem like Kane is special just because he started playing in an era much different from the past, where players make the NHL at a younger age!

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05-12-2012, 11:26 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Except all of those players did it in their first or second season in the NHL, many scoring much more than 30.

Yay, arbitrary cutoffs to make it seem like Kane is special just because he started playing in an era much different from the past, where players make the NHL at a younger age!
I fail to see how that changes the list?

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05-12-2012, 11:40 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
I fail to see how that changes the list?
Even ignoring the universal change in how prospects are developed, how about we open up this list to all-time instead of an arbitrary cutoff of 2000. Or extend the list to 29 goals or less to add more people. Or to 31 to kick out Kane. Or make it by age 19. Or before age 20. Or before age 20 and a half. Or in their first two seasons.

You can make any player look special if you try hard enough. Only player to score X goals and Y assists by day Z in his life using XY stick on one of YZ teams with a Russian player as his linemate with a coach with no hair. SO SPECIAAAALLL.

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05-12-2012, 11:58 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Even ignoring the universal change in how prospects are developed, how about we open up this list to all-time instead of an arbitrary cutoff of 2000. Or extend the list to 29 goals or less to add more people. Or to 31 to kick out Kane. Or make it by age 19. Or before age 20. Or before age 20 and a half. Or in their first two seasons.

You can make any player look special if you try hard enough. Only player to score X goals and Y assists by day Z in his life using XY stick on one of YZ teams with a Russian player as his linemate with a coach with no hair. SO SPECIAAAALLL.
Oh so you mean I should try and do exactly what you have been doing with Kulemin lol

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05-12-2012, 12:06 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Even ignoring the universal change in how prospects are developed, how about we open up this list to all-time instead of an arbitrary cutoff of 2000. Or extend the list to 29 goals or less to add more people. Or to 31 to kick out Kane. Or make it by age 19. Or before age 20. Or before age 20 and a half. Or in their first two seasons.

You can make any player look special if you try hard enough. Only player to score X goals and Y assists by day Z in his life using XY stick on one of YZ teams with a Russian player as his linemate with a coach with no hair. SO SPECIAAAALLL.
Who is this guy? And how is he not in a straightjacket by this point in his life?

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05-12-2012, 12:12 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by DandyEvandy9 View Post
Who is this guy? And how is he not in a straightjacket by this point in his life?
Let me put it this way.....he thinks Kulemin and Kane are similar players. If you throw any facts his way then you are just "make stuff up to support your view"

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05-12-2012, 12:17 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
Oh so you mean I should try and do exactly what you have been doing with Kulemin lol
Lol, I would love to hear you explain how I have been doing this with Kulemin.

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05-12-2012, 12:18 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Even ignoring the universal change in how prospects are developed, how about we open up this list to all-time instead of an arbitrary cutoff of 2000. Or extend the list to 29 goals or less to add more people. Or to 31 to kick out Kane. Or make it by age 19. Or before age 20. Or before age 20 and a half. Or in their first two seasons.

You can make any player look special if you try hard enough. Only player to score X goals and Y assists by day Z in his life using XY stick on one of YZ teams with a Russian player as his linemate with a coach with no hair. SO SPECIAAAALLL.
I think the point was made quite well. On average a single season will see one 20 year old capable of scoring 30 goals, and last year it was Kane. That says a lot, and it would take a lot to get him.

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05-12-2012, 02:08 PM
  #185
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Dude hasn't even filled out yet... Even if he hovers above or below 30 goals his entire career, he can still be a force once he's as strong as most nhl defenseman.

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05-12-2012, 02:54 PM
  #186
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I am not a Habs or Oilers fan but I think PK is very good and he is going to be great. The same goes for Bogosian who had similar stats this season (as per a previous post). IMHO Bogosian would be the toughest asset to pry out of Winnipeg cost wise. Kane would probably be the #2 costliest player to acquire but I don't think untouchable.

I would be suprised if Montreal wouldn't trade PK for RNH? yes RNH picked up an injury this year but he strikes me as a very smart player who will fill out physically and also adapt his game to avoid the injuries going forward. although a young #1 defenseman like PK is a great asset on a team an even better asset is a #1 centre who will most likely be in the top 5 to 10 in scoring in the NHL during his prime. I could see RNH winning the scoring race at some point in time in his career.

the point is kind of silly though since I just can't see the Habs dealing PK and Edmonton will not deal RNH? If I was an Oiler fan I would be worried about Hall....he needs to adapt his style and do it soon.

My only issue with PK is that I am not sure I want my #1 defensman agitating? I know that is who he is but I would prefer that roll to be filled by a less valuable player.

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05-12-2012, 02:56 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Lol, I would love to hear you explain how I have been doing this with Kulemin.
Take a look at your posts in regards to the guy. Saying he's on the same level as Kane and Pacioretty is laughable. After Kulemin had his 30 goal season, he was pimped all over these board by leaf fans. It was almost as bad as Reimer last season when he had a good 30-40 games. Look at both of them this year.....

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05-12-2012, 02:57 PM
  #188
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Kane is awesome, but no trade with the Habs makes sense.

And if the JEts were trading Kane I'd be weary, because obviously there would be reasons behind the move.

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05-12-2012, 03:30 PM
  #189
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There's a good chance Kane and the Jet's will end up in salary arbitration for a 1 year deal because I don't see either side agreeing to an acceptable longer term deal.

I forgot he was still at the end of his ELC, maybe we can revisit this discussion in a year.

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05-12-2012, 04:34 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
There's a good chance Kane and the Jet's will end up in salary arbitration for a 1 year deal because I don't see either side agreeing to an acceptable longer term deal.

I forgot he was still at the end of his ELC, maybe we can revisit this discussion in a year.
Frozenice you have a point. It will depend on the new CBA and whether they get this done before that deal is negociated. I have heard 2nd contracts are an area that will be focused on and that is where Kane is right now. If the CBA wasn't expiring I think both sides could work out a 2 year deal (leaving Kane with two years RFA status). I highly doubt you will see a long term mega deal yet.

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05-12-2012, 05:47 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I am not a Habs or Oilers fan but I think PK is very good and he is going to be great. The same goes for Bogosian who had similar stats this season (as per a previous post). IMHO Bogosian would be the toughest asset to pry out of Winnipeg cost wise. Kane would probably be the #2 costliest player to acquire but I don't think untouchable.

I would be suprised if Montreal wouldn't trade PK for RNH? yes RNH picked up an injury this year but he strikes me as a very smart player who will fill out physically and also adapt his game to avoid the injuries going forward. although a young #1 defenseman like PK is a great asset on a team an even better asset is a #1 centre who will most likely be in the top 5 to 10 in scoring in the NHL during his prime. I could see RNH winning the scoring race at some point in time in his career.

the point is kind of silly though since I just can't see the Habs dealing PK and Edmonton will not deal RNH? If I was an Oiler fan I would be worried about Hall....he needs to adapt his style and do it soon.

My only issue with PK is that I am not sure I want my #1 defensman agitating? I know that is who he is but I would prefer that roll to be filled by a less valuable player.
Great post. Thank you.

I only said I would not trade Subban for RNH because I fear that he isn't big enough to survive the rigors of the NHL, especially in our division where we play Philly and Boston. I believe RNH will be a top center in the league if he can fill out and get stronger, but I wouldn't want to risk Subban for him when we have the 3rd overall this year and might get someone like RNH in Galchenyuk or Forsberg. I don't know if Galchenyuk or Forsberg will ever be as good as RNH, but they do not cost us Subban, so I will stick with Subban and draft, hopefully, our own RNH...OR trade for a bigger center using Plekanec, 3rd overall, and other assets to gain the big center we lack.

I hope you are right about RNH, and that he does fill out and become a top 10 player for the Oilers for decades to come. I look forward to seeing the Oilers back in the playoffs to hopefully face the Habs for a Cup sooner than later.

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05-12-2012, 06:56 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Even ignoring the universal change in how prospects are developed, how about we open up this list to all-time instead of an arbitrary cutoff of 2000. Or extend the list to 29 goals or less to add more people. Or to 31 to kick out Kane. Or make it by age 19. Or before age 20. Or before age 20 and a half. Or in their first two seasons.

You can make any player look special if you try hard enough. Only player to score X goals and Y assists by day Z in his life using XY stick on one of YZ teams with a Russian player as his linemate with a coach with no hair. SO SPECIAAAALLL.


Yeah, cause 30 by age 20 since the year 2000 is such a weird cutoff. Just admit that it's not really trying hard to point out that Kane is one of a few special players that has scored 30 goals when he was 20 years old.

Kulemin is not even close to Pacioretty or Kane, it's that simple.

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05-12-2012, 07:24 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
Take a look at your posts in regards to the guy. Saying he's on the same level as Kane and Pacioretty is laughable. After Kulemin had his 30 goal season, he was pimped all over these board by leaf fans. It was almost as bad as Reimer last season when he had a good 30-40 games. Look at both of them this year.....
Lol, you just changed your entire argument because you couldn't prove that that is what I was doing.

I didn't say he is necessarily as good as Kane or Pacioretty. I said he is on a similar level, and despite a bunch of Jets fans saying it is laughable, I've been given no reason other than "LOL omg teh 7 goals" as to why they are so drastically different. I guess you're lucky that we aren't having this discussion last year, or you would have to admit that Kulemin is the better player and infinitely more valuable than Kane.

Yes, Kulemin was hyped after scoring 30 goals, just as Kane is now, and just like many players are after an amazing season. I didn't know the most recent season is the only thing to judge a player and his career on.

As for Reimer.. Well, I would expect a Jets fan to know that stats don't always tell the whole story when it comes to your goaltenders. I wouldn't throw stones in glass buildings. And FYI, Reimer had a better even strength save percentage this year than Pavelec, and has a better overall career save percentage. At least your guy didn't have to sit out and avoid training for over a month during the season because of a concussion.

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05-12-2012, 07:32 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post


Yeah, cause 30 by age 20 since the year 2000 is such a weird cutoff. Just admit that it's not really trying hard to point out that Kane is one of a few special players that has scored 30 goals when he was 20 years old.

Kulemin is not even close to Pacioretty or Kane, it's that simple.
Just because it is a range of a bunch of nice clean numbers doesn't mean that it isn't random. You can make a lot of players look great with such methods.

Kane is a special and valuable player, yes. To laugh at an offer of a 3rd overall pick and another likely top-10 pick, not based on team needs, but because of the supposed value, is ridiculous. Just because a player does something at a young age in an era when everybody is doing things at a younger age, doesn't mean he is infinitely more special than everybody else.

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05-12-2012, 09:14 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Just because it is a range of a bunch of nice clean numbers doesn't mean that it isn't random. You can make a lot of players look great with such methods.

Kane is a special and valuable player, yes. To laugh at an offer of a 3rd overall pick and another likely top-10 pick, not based on team needs, but because of the supposed value, is ridiculous. Just because a player does something at a young age in an era when everybody is doing things at a younger age, doesn't mean he is infinitely more special than everybody else.
I disagree. Kane is a stud and no way would the 3rd overall and another first comes remotely close to getting him. You make it sound like a ton of players have put up the same stats at that age, but that presented list proves that wrong. Oh, and his stats have gotten better each of his first 3 years.

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05-12-2012, 09:28 PM
  #196
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kane + 2nd for Beaulieu and 3rd overall.

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05-12-2012, 10:31 PM
  #197
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I disagree. Kane is a stud and no way would the 3rd overall and another first comes remotely close to getting him. You make it sound like a ton of players have put up the same stats at that age, but that presented list proves that wrong. Oh, and his stats have gotten better each of his first 3 years.
The list of players that have scored 63 goals or 126 points in their first 3 years is much, much larger, even if sectioning it off to players that hit 30 goals or 57 points in a year in that time-frame (which is pretty ridiculous itself).

Those parameters also leave out players that are superior, equal or similar to Kane in abilities, either because they fell a couple goals short in any particular year (ie. Seguin) or are primarily play-makers.

Improving every year for the first 3 years is great. That's the general trend, barring individual cases of sophomore slumps. That doesn't mean he will continue to produce more in year 4, and every year after that.

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05-12-2012, 10:36 PM
  #198
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Every single team in the NHL (and every other league in the universe) wants to trade for Evander Kane (E5), even the team he is currently on (E99.999999)

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05-12-2012, 10:38 PM
  #199
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Kane>Kuli AINEC

Kane is a budding star in this league.

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05-12-2012, 10:59 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Even if it were true that he was comparable to Kessel (which he is not - Kane is as close to what Kessel was as Kulemin is to Kane), then the price is set at two top-15 picks and a pick in the 30-45 range, because that is all Boston was expecting to get.

A 3rd overall pick is worth more than a generic top-15 pick and a 2nd rounder, and there is more reason to believe that Montreal will be in a similar position next year than there was for Toronto in 2010 and 2011, so by your logic, the offer of 3rd overall and 2013 first rounder should be more than enough to get Kane.

And FYI, 11 people this year alone shot at a higher rate than 17.1%. 25 people in the playoffs this year so far. Are all of them "the greatest shooters in modern history"? You know, there is also another way of scoring more goals but not increasing your SH%. It's called shooting more.

More people with Kulemin's shooting abilities hover closer to 17.1% than 6.5%.

So instead of actually looking at the links I provided you and breaking out your calculator (dear god that would be hard) you just blindly made some stuff up, well done a applaud you for the effort you put into that. OK I will do it for you:

Kane 3 Seasons 213 GP 63G 63A 126 PTS 16:33 ATOI
Kessel 3 Seasons 222 GP 66G 60A 126 PTS 15:18 ATOI

I'm sorry your totally right they are nothing alike at all, if you want to get into advanced stats they also match up quite well. Not to mention they play basically the exact same game, although Kane has the advantage of more grit while Kessel is better at using his team mates. As for where the picks land I think most figured the Leafs pick would be at least a top 10 2nd overall was a nice bonus but that's all inconsequential MTL is a much much better team today than the Leafs were in 2009 it is not a huge stretch to see MTL making the play offs next year so the Jets could be looking at 3rd overall and 20th.

As for Kuli you can't use playoff numbers that's the worst use of small sample size ever, for a guy that didn't look at Kane and Kessels stats at all you are pretty quick to jump on the stats that benefit your argument. Players will have big years, thats why they are called "big years" and that's why we have stats to look and identify when a player is getting lucky and will not repeat those numbers the next season.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ct_career.html
That's a list of the top 250 career SH%'s notice how almost all of the player with %'s better than 15% are not from the modern era? Now notice that the current players on this list are mostly elite talents. Of the 58 players who shot over 17% only 4 are active currently one is Steven Stamkos. Can you honestly say that you think that Kuli will be the 5th active player to do this? Considering his career is 12.6% I think this is rather unlikely no?

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