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Trade our core: Price, PK, Patches

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Old
05-13-2012, 09:35 AM
  #26
LyricalLyricist
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I spent a lot of time wondering the same. I see the next window as far from now. I personally don't want to end up like calgary. I wish the habs would KEEP the big 3 and retool and restock around them so by the time young talent comes along the 3 will be in their prime and have a young cheap supporting cast. Forcing the issue of trading them now seems unnecessary and extreme. We're better off trading the vets now and going rebuild(minus 3-5 guys) and build for the future asap. If we keep forcing and trying to be 'competitive' every year we may just screw up our next window.

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05-13-2012, 09:49 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.
A bad idea driven to its extreme. There are many things bad about it but I'll confine my critique to a few points.

1) It would delay the rebuild for additional years, during which time other useful players would depart as UFAs or outlive their usefulness, so the Habs would be struggling to reach the level they're at now.
2) There is no assurance the Habs could draft prospects to fully replace these players in the next few years.
3) It would demoralize the fan base and subject them to mocking remarks from other fans (as Montréalers have done with the Leafs).
4) It would discourage UFAs from signing with the Habs.
5) It would make the new GM look like a fool and a sucker who can be fleeced.

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05-13-2012, 10:10 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
28 is now past prime in the new NHL. People's prime are 22-26. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Kane's best years will all be in that range.
2 things about the guys you all mentioned:

1) They are all FORWARDS. Forwards hit their prime much younger than D and goalies. Look at all the dominant goalies. Pretty much all goalies that are solid year in year out are 28-30+. Before that it's usually one good year, one bad year, etc. D-Men hit their prime OFFENSIVELY pretty early, but it takes years to become dominant all-around D. Much more again around 28-30. The fact that Price and PK are as good as they are at this age means they should be dominant once they reach their prime. Which they did NOT yet, not even close.

2) Notice how those are still very good players? You talk as if at 27 they are declining. That's not true at all. What about Spezza, Kovalchuk, the Sedins, are they on a heavy declining slope? Yet they are 28+.

Elite forwards enter their prime offensively very early. Their all around game, defensive responsability, etc. usually develops more over the year, but when it comes to goal scoring, usually what you see around 25-26 is what you'll get. But they can still be just as good for many years after that.

Trading away your core when they are below 25 thinking 'we won't win with them' makes no sense.

To me the only guy that you could argue that is Plekanec, because he will have really good value imo and he might be out of his prime by the time we can win, because he's closer to 30. And still, I would argue that you should keep him, but I would be more open to trades if you can get a really good prospect in exchange.

The Habs actually drafted in an intelligent way. First they drafted a goalie, then D-men, and now forwards. So that when our goalie and D ARE in their prime, which is in a few years still, then we should have some high skill forwards drafted (one this year hopefully) that will be able to contribute right away, because elite offensive forwards can contribute very young.

But it doesn't mean they quickly decline afterwards...

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Old
05-13-2012, 10:18 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
28 is now past prime in the new NHL. People's prime are 22-26. Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Kane's best years will all be in that range.

I agree that Price, Subban and Patches will have a slightly later prime than most of them but the problem will be their contracts at that point. Teams have won cups when their prime players are still on RFA contracts. Then when on to have cap troubles once their core was making the big money.
This is just not true. I'm assuming you're basing all of this on the fact that goal scorers tend to score the most goals between the ages of 22-26. This is far from meaning their prime years are in fact in that age range; it just means their prime goal-scoring happens then.

RFA contracts are not substantially cheaper than UFA contracts anymore.

It's strange that you're mixing up 'new-hockey-thinking' (prime years being 22-26, even if you're using that incorrectly) with 'old thinking' regarding RFA contracts.

Teams haven't won Cups with RFA-aged players; Chicago and Pittsburgh have. Big difference. Detroit's not the exception on this one. Boston won last year with the bulk of their core making market value. Vancouver contended in similar fashion.

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05-13-2012, 10:37 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.
You make some valid points, but it seems on simplistic terms, to tear down our young core, to go out and TRY to build a new young core...?

Gotta disagree with you...patience is the key here...our core is strong, and still young...


Last edited by Crimson Skorpion: 05-13-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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Old
05-13-2012, 10:45 AM
  #31
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I don't even know how to comment other than say that this is a brutal idea.

If they guys were 30-31, I would agree. But they are 25 and younger.

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05-13-2012, 10:50 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Teams have won cups when their prime players are still on RFA contracts. Then when on to have cap troubles once their core was making the big money.
There is some truth in here, as the best teams often have very good players on bargain contracts. I think you miss the next logical conclusion - that these teams are contenders because those bargain contracts allow them the cap/budget room to add or retain top players who are paid close to their value. Those players don't grow on trees. If we trade Subban, Pacioretty and Price in order to lower the average age of the team and get cheaper, what's the next step? To try to find players of Price, Subban and Pacioretty's caliber who are willing to come here as UFA's or trade for them.

The strategy isn't simply to trade everyone over 21 when you're no good. It's to identify a core and to move non-core players when there are cheaper alternatives available.

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Old
05-13-2012, 10:58 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Price, Subban and Pacioretty are pretty much our best players going forward and they are our core. However, being totally realistic, I don't see us giving them enough support in the next 2-4 years when they are in their prime for us to win it all. Looking at the teams that have won it all, most have had considerable playoff success in the year before they won it all or steadily built up to that.

I honestly can't see us getting enough pieces with the way free agency is so tight these days. Even if Grigs, Galy or TT pan out perfectly, we'd still need another big piece imo. Which if coming from the draft, means we'd either have to tank again next year, which still means we are looking at 3-4 years away at which time our core is getting near the end of their prime.

I think the sad reality is we need to start over. I'm not saying tank, I'm saying restock the prospects. The pieces that we could get for Price would be at an all time high right now. Same thing with Subban and Patches.

If we can get 1-2 blue chip prospects and a pick for each of them. We'd be legit contenders in 3-4 years. I honestly don't see us being legit contenders in 3-4 years if we keep our core.

I have faith in Bergevin but I think the window to win with Price, Patches and Pleks is closing. In 4 years, they will have to be the supporting pieces of the puzzle, not the core. I don't see us getting a good enough new core in 4 years without trading them.

It wouldn't be popular but I think if the return on Price, Patches & Subban were great, people wouldn't hate it. Tanking isn't our answer. But we can learn from what Philly did even if they didn't win the cup, their team got younger and better. We need to do the same.

If you look at the teams that won the cup, they had a young core. Boston's core is a lot older this past year but I think they'll have a new window in two years when Seguin & company are ready. We don't have that kind of talent waiting in the back room. Chicago, Pittsburg, Anaheim, they all won when their core was relatively young. I think we've missed that window with our core.

So you think the brand new GM should trade the 3 most popular players on the team???

I really dont think he has a death wish......

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Old
05-13-2012, 10:59 AM
  #34
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Stopped reading after you mentioned subban price and patches leaving their prime in 2-4 years.

All 3 of these players are not even in their prime. Both goalies and D don't usually enter their prime until their late 20s.

Great idea though. Trade away the only elite young talent we have.

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05-13-2012, 11:07 AM
  #35
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Any other bright ideas?

I mean seriously.. you best be jesting...

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05-13-2012, 11:10 AM
  #36
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Price is younger than any comparable established starting goalie in the league. But he's too old to build around?

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05-13-2012, 11:10 AM
  #37
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Is this a joke?

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Old
05-13-2012, 11:16 AM
  #38
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05-13-2012, 11:24 AM
  #39
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Thread owner is the Drunk Smurf.
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I'm going to assume you're under the influence.
Maybe I should stop posting when I'm sober.

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05-13-2012, 11:29 AM
  #40
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I would trade Plekanec, Markov and Cole; but not Price, Subban and Pacioretty.

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05-13-2012, 11:37 AM
  #41
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There are a few things I avoid when drunk:
- playing Tetris Battle
- posting on HFBoards

It helps.

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05-13-2012, 11:41 AM
  #42
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Old
05-13-2012, 11:45 AM
  #43
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There are a few things I avoid when drunk:
- playing Tetris Battle
- posting on HFBoards

It helps.
I play eashl drunk sometimes. It's pretty fun.

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05-13-2012, 11:46 AM
  #44
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I play eashl drunk sometimes. It's pretty fun.
Exactly why it wasn't on my list!

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Old
05-13-2012, 11:54 AM
  #45
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I play eashl drunk sometimes. It's pretty fun.
I scored 5-goals the other night when I was drunk. I never score 5-goals.

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05-13-2012, 12:15 PM
  #46
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I understand what you are saying, but I think our core all revolves around the next CBA on what moves we should make.

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05-13-2012, 12:24 PM
  #47
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Is this thread a joke?

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05-13-2012, 12:27 PM
  #48
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i see... trade all-star caliber young goalie, young dman & budding 30-40 goal young forward, so that we can accumulate picks and prospects that we hope, one day, rise to the same level.


brilliant

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Old
05-13-2012, 12:47 PM
  #49
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This is just... the most amount of fail dumped in one post.

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05-13-2012, 12:50 PM
  #50
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Laughing out loud.

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