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The FAN 1200 - Pierre McGuire - 3rd overall vs J. Staal??

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Old
05-13-2012, 08:38 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
Rangers refuse that howson wish ... from now on they won't accept any further deal with Blue Jackets for such insult. so Yeah a take a **** out of me cuz this would be the only ****ing deal that Howson will receive from a habs pov ....

Nash don't want to play anymore for Howson and his team he also cost a rocket salary .... perspective are the gomez deal : NHL ready player + propect + picks ... this is the only way Columbus must get a chance to deal their top scorer actually because they have ****ed up the relation with others team .... I guess that Howson will wait another year before trading Nash but this would hurt team chemistry alot!
Would you trade Nash for that ?

No, so why would they ?

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The Rangers made a late offer of Brandon Dubinsky, Tim Erixon, J.T. Miller, Christian Thomas and a 1st round pick. Howson added:
Source: http://www.bluejacketsxtra.com/conte...-what-now.html

So, you're wrong.

The Rangers offered a lot more than you. So, if you want Nash, offer a ****ing lot, otherwise don't even bother.

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05-13-2012, 08:52 AM
  #277
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I guess we will see what Bergevin has in mind for the Habs in the coming months. He might trade lots of guys going forward and not have the same ideas about his team as most of us do. I think posters should stop making up lineups based on players that are here now, they might not be here in September, he could very well shake things up. There is no question based on the playoffs that the Habs really desperately need to get bigger up front, we need D help and thats a tall order to be achieved in one off season. I would not be surprised if we are missing the playoffs again next season, it takes time to build a team and we neeeeeeed time.

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05-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #278
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Staal is a 2nd-line C. You watch him versus Crosby or Malkin, he doesn't have anything close to their hands, vision or creativity. We're looking for a No. 1 Centre in Montreal and he doesn't have that talent level. You watch the true No. 1 Cs in the NHL, you watch J. Staal and it's not the same thing.

Staal is a YEAR from being a free agent with no reason to commit to Montreal, at all. If we're going to go that desperate route, send 3rd overall to Anaheim for Getzlaf because he is a No. 1 and at least he'd be a little more worthwhile in throwing the moon at to keep.

Galchenyuk, Grigorenko yes they're risks but they have that upside to their profiles and MTL will own the first 8 years of their pro careers before they're even eligible for UFA status.

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05-13-2012, 10:55 AM
  #279
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We have not had such a high pick in over 20 years. Unless some crazy GM offers Toews, Malkin, Daughty, Stamkos I say no.

If we trade the 3rd for Staal and he leaves in one year that would be catastrophic. We already set ourselves back when we traded for Gomez by giving up a young stud Dman. The only way you could make this trade is if the contingency included the Penguins 1st round pick in 2013 if Staal did not resign with Montreal.

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05-13-2012, 12:46 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post

The Rangers offered a lot more than you. So, if you want Nash, offer a ****ing lot, otherwise don't even bother.
interesting to see what he finally goes for.

i don't think its a slam dunk that he gets as much as the Rags offered in-season. GM's tend to be a bit less trigger happy in the offseason without that added emotional allure of "getting over the top".

Nash has a huge contract, and though a consistent goal scorer, isn't exactly a reliable bet to make those around him better or lead a team the way a dominant #1 C or #1Dman can. How many teams will really be in the running, and of those, how many will be willing to give up that much?

If Nash really is dead set on leaving, Howson's in a tougher spot than he was in-season, unless he finds at least 2 GM's that convince themselves that they need to get Nash "at all cost", his bidding war might prove to be significantly smaller than a few months ago.


we likely have both the cap space (assuming Gomez is gone) and the need, yet there's no way I'd offer up a similar package to the one Howson rejected:

DD
Tinordi
Gallagher
Kristo
2012 2nd

no chance in hell.

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05-13-2012, 01:00 PM
  #281
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It makes no sense, really.

I'd take Staal over any draft pick.
I'd take Staal over almost any draft pick. The "sure things" that have gone 1st/2nd overall (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews) make me hesitant to swap him for that high of a pick, depending on who the cream of the crop is. I'd personally trade any pick from this year, including the 1st overall, if I could get Staal straight up for it. Yeah, Yakupov is good, but so is Ovechkin, and it's the Parise/Richards/Staal type players that are getting it done in "today's NHL" in the absence of a Malkin or Crosby. So under-rated because so many people think it makes sense to compare him to Crosby/Malkin instead of the other 600 non-generational players out there in the league.

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05-13-2012, 01:57 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'd take Staal over almost any draft pick. The "sure things" that have gone 1st/2nd overall (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews) make me hesitant to swap him for that high of a pick, depending on who the cream of the crop is. I'd personally trade any pick from this year, including the 1st overall, if I could get Staal straight up for it. Yeah, Yakupov is good, but so is Ovechkin, and it's the Parise/Richards/Staal type players that are getting it done in "today's NHL" in the absence of a Malkin or Crosby. So under-rated because so many people think it makes sense to compare him to Crosby/Malkin instead of the other 600 non-generational players out there in the league.
Staal is third line in Pittsburgh, he would be first or second here, he has learned a good defensive style and has offensive upside, throw in the fact that he has won a cup and I say, if that trade is available then you definitely take it. I would take either of the Staal brothers over anything in the top 5 picks in this draft.

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05-13-2012, 02:45 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'd take Staal over almost any draft pick. The "sure things" that have gone 1st/2nd overall (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews) make me hesitant to swap him for that high of a pick, depending on who the cream of the crop is. I'd personally trade any pick from this year, including the 1st overall, if I could get Staal straight up for it. Yeah, Yakupov is good, but so is Ovechkin, and it's the Parise/Richards/Staal type players that are getting it done in "today's NHL" in the absence of a Malkin or Crosby. So under-rated because so many people think it makes sense to compare him to Crosby/Malkin instead of the other 600 non-generational players out there in the league.
Of course it makes no sense to compare to Staal to Malkin and Crosby. But even when you consider Staal on his own he's not much better than a Plekanec with size. I'm banking on Gally or Forsberg to be much better than Staal or Pleks. Even if that's not a sure thing, I'm willing to take that risk. The amount of pressure there would be on Staal if we made the deal to trade our first overall pick will be unimaginable. As soon as Gally or Forsberg surpasses Staal (while making far less money) fans and media will be all over Staal and Bergevin. It's a safe deal to make but it's a heck of a dangerous one in the longterm.

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05-13-2012, 02:51 PM
  #284
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I still dont think a decision would be as clear cut as some are making it seem.

I still wouldnt know what to do. Essentially were banking on either Staal being better than what he is now or the top 3 pick to be better than what Staal is now. Who is more likely to reach that? We dont know. Also when you factor in Staal's'potential next contract, the answer is less clear.

Im on the fence. For me it's'less about points and more about whether Staal can be a game changer and carry a team on his back.

EDIT: wow did i ever make an epic mistake in that last sentence.


Last edited by Andy: 05-13-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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05-13-2012, 03:16 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I still dont think a decision would be as clear cut as some are making it seem.

I still wouldnt know what to do. Essentially were banking on either Staal being better than what he is now or the top 3 pick to be better than what Staal is now. Who is more likely to reach that? We dont know. Also when you factor in Staal's'potential next contract, the answer is less clear.

Im on the fence. For me it's'less about points and more about whether Staal can be a game changer and carry a back on his time.
I have similar feelings.
If Staal can keep up what he did this year [25 goals, 25 assists in 62 games, 6 goals, 3 assists in 6 playoff games (take it with a grain of salt as it was vs the Flyers)] I'm fine with it..

Personally I'd rather have Galchenyuk though..

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05-13-2012, 03:18 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I still dont think a decision would be as clear cut as some are making it seem.

I still wouldnt know what to do. Essentially were banking on either Staal being better than what he is now or the top 3 pick to be better than what Staal is now. Who is more likely to reach that? We dont know. Also when you factor in Staal's'potential next contract, the answer is less clear.

Im on the fence. For me it's'less about points and more about whether Staal can be a game changer and carry a back on his time.
agreed.

I'm pretty confident Staal would be able to step in and give us long term stability down the middle (not necessarily b/c he'll become a dominant #1C, scoring 75+pts and carrying a line, but more so because slotting him in with Plekanec and Eller or DD strikes me as a very strong C group, well suited to handled & thrive in playoff hockey).

but as a 1-for-1 swap, with Staal only being 1 year away from UFA, I don't think I'd do the deal unless we were able to negotiate a long-term extension prior to the deal. Otherwise, even if I'd do the move from a pure asset-for-asset pov, the contract implication is far too risky.

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05-13-2012, 03:29 PM
  #287
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Can someone explain to me why it would be a good thing to give away the chance of drafting and developing an 18 year old player in exchange for a guy who will be 24 by the time next season starts?

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05-13-2012, 03:38 PM
  #288
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Can someone explain to me why it would be a good thing to give away the chance of drafting and developing an 18 year old player in exchange for a guy who will be 24 by the time next season starts?
Because of the roster we currently have.

you have Price, Subban, MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, Diaz all around Staal's age, adding him gives you one more player entering his prime to go with the existing group.

then we have gionta, markov, cole, plekanec, kaberle (ugh) as your veteran group, all of which with 2-3 years left on their current deal.


with leblanc, tinordi, gallagher, beaulieu, ellis, kristo, geoffrion, palushaj, naatinen et. we have a solid group of prospects from which at least 2 or 3 should be decent (or better) contributors in the next 1-3 years.



you can look at it both ways, but it's definitely not hard to see why it would make sense to add a proven commodity (stud defensive centre who is young and has shown signs of greater offensive potential) to our organization, vs rolling the dice on an 18 year old in a draft class that arguably is weaker at the top then it's been in a few years.

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05-13-2012, 03:40 PM
  #289
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It's nothing but an attempted short cut. Short cuts aren't the way to establish a team as a perennial contender in the NHL.

Brian Burke found that out the hard way, hopefully Bergevin doesn't do something stupid.

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05-13-2012, 03:49 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
It's nothing but an attempted short cut. Short cuts aren't the way to establish a team as a perennial contender in the NHL.

Brian Burke found that out the hard way, hopefully Bergevin doesn't do something stupid.
go figure, and here I thought that Shortcuts were a good thing...

"accelerated way of doing or achieving something"... yup clearly stupid to do/achieve something in an accelerated way

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05-13-2012, 04:22 PM
  #291
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Because of the roster we currently have.

you have Price, Subban, MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, Diaz all around Staal's age, adding him gives you one more player entering his prime to go with the existing group.

then we have gionta, markov, cole, plekanec, kaberle (ugh) as your veteran group, all of which with 2-3 years left on their current deal.


with leblanc, tinordi, gallagher, beaulieu, ellis, kristo, geoffrion, palushaj, naatinen et. we have a solid group of prospects from which at least 2 or 3 should be decent (or better) contributors in the next 1-3 years.



you can look at it both ways, but it's definitely not hard to see why it would make sense to add a proven commodity (stud defensive centre who is young and has shown signs of greater offensive potential) to our organization, vs rolling the dice on an 18 year old in a draft class that arguably is weaker at the top then it's been in a few years.
When Price&Pacioretty and even Subban get to a point were they are considered old farts by hockey terms (33+ years old) the player we'd draft this year is going to be in his prime along with other other young prospects. With some luck he,ll be there to bridge the gap with our future young prospects.

Good organisations with long lasting success are built with multiple generations of players. When you trade prospects&picks for older players you risk ending up with an old men country club with a few very young prospects a few years down the road.

Of course the best chance of success within 3 years would be to get players that are 26+ years old but that would also be the best way to ensure we'd remain a mediocre team with an ever changing roster for a decade. We need stability, we need to draft&groom our players and keep them until and after they hit their primes. For two decades this team has been managed by people that never bothered thinking further than a season or two, its no surprise we can't have success on a regular basis.

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go figure, and here I thought that Shortcuts were a good thing...

"accelerated way of doing or achieving something"... yup clearly stupid to do/achieve something in an accelerated way
Shortcuts sometimes get you stuck on a muddy dirt road. Or on a very slow road full of traffic lights and potholes (for city people). The shortest route on a map can take much longer&be much more painful.

When talking about abstract ideas (like building a hockey team) shortcut and shortsighted are often very similar things.


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05-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #292
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go figure, and here I thought that Shortcuts were a good thing...

"accelerated way of doing or achieving something"... yup clearly stupid to do/achieve something in an accelerated way
Taking a short cut a lot of the time is taking the easy way out. Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it won't.

I personally would rather the habs develop a player, rather than trade for a guy who has been in another teams system developing for 5 years and probably isn't going to get much better.

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05-13-2012, 04:37 PM
  #293
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No way in hell I'd trade our 3rd for Staal. I'd try and target Chris Stewart for our 2nd+ though.

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05-13-2012, 04:38 PM
  #294
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I'd take Staal over almost any draft pick. The "sure things" that have gone 1st/2nd overall (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Toews) make me hesitant to swap him for that high of a pick, depending on who the cream of the crop is. I'd personally trade any pick from this year, including the 1st overall, if I could get Staal straight up for it. Yeah, Yakupov is good, but so is Ovechkin, and it's the Parise/Richards/Staal type players that are getting it done in "today's NHL" in the absence of a Malkin or Crosby. So under-rated because so many people think it makes sense to compare him to Crosby/Malkin instead of the other 600 non-generational players out there in the league.
I'm talking this upcoming draft though. None of the forwards reeally impress me.

I would love Staal

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05-13-2012, 05:55 PM
  #295
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When Price&Pacioretty and even Subban get to a point were they are considered old farts by hockey terms (33+ years old) the player we'd draft this year is going to be in his prime along with other other young prospects. With some luck he,ll be there to bridge the gap with our future young prospects.

Good organisations with long lasting success are built with multiple generations of players. When you trade prospects&picks for older players you risk ending up with an old men country club with a few very young prospects a few years down the road.

Of course the best chance of success within 3 years would be to get players that are 26+ years old but that would also be the best way to ensure we'd remain a mediocre team with an ever changing roster for a decade. We need stability, we need to draft&groom our players and keep them until and after they hit their primes. For two decades this team has been managed by people that never bothered thinking further than a season or two, its no surprise we can't have success on a regular basis.



Shortcuts sometimes get you stuck on a muddy dirt road. Or on a very slow road full of traffic lights and potholes (for city people). The shortest route on a map can take much longer&be much more painful.

When talking about abstract ideas (like building a hockey team) shortcut and shortsighted are often very similar things.
Considering how good our draft team is, I'm reasonably confident we'll end up with 1 or 2 exciting prospects from our non-1st picks... So it's not like trading this 1 top -3 pick will doom the organization to a bare cupboard down the road.

Also, having just turned 24, Staal is still a young player, even though he's got several years of NHL experience.

Trading a top pick for a 24 year old isn't exactly abandoning the future for short term gain... It's not like we're talking about trading the pick for Iginla or st Louis

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05-13-2012, 06:03 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Taking a short cut a lot of the time is taking the easy way out. Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it won't.

I personally would rather the habs develop a player, rather than trade for a guy who has been in another teams system developing for 5 years and probably isn't going to get much better.
Fair enough... Although I disagree that staal isn't likely to "get much better".
He's 24, and by all indications a committed athlete with strong work ethic and good attitude.

Odds are much better that he continues to progress than they are that he's already peaked.

Whomever we get at 3rd overall isn't guaranteed to be as good as staal is now, let alone better.

Risk either way, but contract aside (again, I would not do the deal w/o an extension being agreed to) I don't think one can argue that either decision would be stupid or incomprehensible.

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05-13-2012, 08:05 PM
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Of course it makes no sense to compare to Staal to Malkin and Crosby. But even when you consider Staal on his own he's not much better than a Plekanec with size. I'm banking on Gally or Forsberg to be much better than Staal or Pleks. Even if that's not a sure thing, I'm willing to take that risk. The amount of pressure there would be on Staal if we made the deal to trade our first overall pick will be unimaginable. As soon as Gally or Forsberg surpasses Staal (while making far less money) fans and media will be all over Staal and Bergevin. It's a safe deal to make but it's a heck of a dangerous one in the longterm.
Well, I'm not, but fair enough. And as far as "pressure" regarding his "worth" vs. a top draft pick, you are aware that he was drafted 2nd overall, and joined a team that just drafted Sidney Crosby 1st overall, and Malkin 2nd overall the year before that, right? But let's back up here... whose "first overall pick" are you talking about? "We" (as in the Habs) are picking 3rd, btw.

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05-13-2012, 08:09 PM
  #298
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Fair enough... Although I disagree that staal isn't likely to "get much better".
I'm with you. Guys with the talent, size, strength, and hockey I.Q. who play his style of game just better with age until the body starts visibly slowing/breaking down.

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He's 24, and by all indications a committed athlete with strong work ethic and good attitude.

Odds are much better that he continues to progress than they are that he's already peaked.

Whomever we get at 3rd overall isn't guaranteed to be as good as staal is now, let alone better.

Risk either way, but contract aside (again, I would not do the deal w/o an extension being agreed to) I don't think one can argue that either decision would be stupid or incomprehensible.
He's still only 23, actually. But in fairness, he'll turn 24 shortly before preseason gets underway.

As for the "chances" of a #3 overall pick becoming "better" than Staal, I'm going to go back over the last 20 years or so and see if there are any 3rd overall picks that I'd straight up trade Staal to acquire instead. Everyone else should do the same. It should be interesting to see if anyone gets a list of over half the possibilities (i.e. better than 50/50 chance based on "history" of the "pedigree").

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05-13-2012, 08:25 PM
  #299
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As for the "chances" of a #3 overall becoming "better" than Staal, I'm going to go back over the last 20 years or so and see if there are any 3rd overall picks that I'd straight up trade Staal to acquire instead. Everyone else should do the same. It should be interesting to see if anyone gets a list of over half the possibilities (i.e. better than 50/50 chance based on "history" of the "pedigree").
I did 12 years.

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Since we're dead-set against taking a defenseman this year here are the forwards drafted at #3, or the first forward drafted at after #3 if a defenseman was taken in that spot (since the new millenium).

2011: Huberdeau - too early to tell.

2010: Ryan Johansen - probably too early to tell as well. Had 9 goals last year (compared to Staal's 29 at the same age)

2009: Matt Duchene - nice comparable in my opinion. Similar style players, probably have to wait a few years to see if Duchene can be more of an offensive player.

2008: Nikita Filatov - Staal all the way, and I take Staal over Colin Wilson too, the next forward taken after Filatov.

2007: Kyle Turris - I take Staal any day, even if you think Phoenix messed up Turris and there is still untapped potential there.

2006: Jonathon Toews - I take Toews.

2005: Benoit Pouliot - do I have to say anything?

2004: Andrew Ladd - nice player, I'd still take Staal

2003: Nathan Horton - nice player, I'd still take Staal. And Staal over Zherdev, Vanek and Michalek too, the next three forwards taken.

2002: Scottie Upshall - Staal all the way, and Staal over Joffrey Lupul, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Petr Taticek and Eric Nystrom too.

2001: Alexander Svitov - Staal of course, Next three were Weiss, Chistov and Mikko Koivu. Mikko Koivu is the only one that comes close, and that's just because I think Koivu is very underrated.

2000: Marian Gaborik - Gaborik.

Twelve drafts:

3 "too early to tells" in Huberdeau, Johansen and Duchene

2 "not Staal" in Toews and Gaborik

7 "Staal is better" than Filatov, Pouliot, Turris, Ladd, Horton, Upshall and Svitov

The odds seem to be squarely in Staal's favor. Yeah, he'll cost more, but do you want a good but expensive player, or a cheap, but mediocre player?

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05-13-2012, 08:32 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
So a 22 year old player puts up 50 points on the stat sheet while playing a defensive role with Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy but he can't put up 1st line numbers while playing with 1st line players in an offensive role? Some solid reasoning some of you have... The kid's a PROVEN warrior who's still Eller's age.
Which 1st line players do you have in mind? If Pacioretty and Cole, Staal would do well. On the other hand, taken away from his linemates, Desharnais would sink quite far. The goal is to have three effective lines. While I'm not averse to trading the #3 pick I'd like to get back something in addition to Staal, whether it would be a veteran the Habs could use immediately, a high draft choice, or a promising prospect.

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