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Which system do you prefer?

View Poll Results: Which system do you prefer?
Lavy's (Capitals pond hockey) 46 54.76%
Defense First (something that resembles forwards playing some sort of defensive system) 38 45.24%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-11-2012, 12:07 AM
  #51
35NW8ING
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Not sure I see how Schenn, Couturier, Read, Simmonds, & C. would have learned much about defense this year.



In my view, it didn't change this year. As soon as Pronger crashed they should have changed.
Stop it NOW JXC, it doesn't ****ing matter what you think cause you're not part of the organization.

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Old
05-11-2012, 12:11 AM
  #52
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I would have to think some sort of change in style of play is coming if you listen to the players and Holmgren speak earlier today and after the game 5 loss.
Not sure of we go full blown defensive style, but a more structured system may be implimented. The thing is tho, after playing this way for 2 plus seasons. It will take time for the players to adapt to it and that would take patience. Something I dont think many Flyer fans have to be honest.

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05-11-2012, 08:02 AM
  #53
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Last game played with 5 mins to go the Devils had 4 forecheckers up and one guy back, what are you talking about? These Devils are worse than the Devils of the past. They constantly had at least 3 forecheckers going at all times.
Do you know what the trap is?

What you're describing is pretty much the exact opposite of the trap. This Devils team is nothing like the 90's/00's Devils.

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05-11-2012, 10:37 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
And the main theme is defense first, not attack, attack some more, and attack till you can't attack anymore.
I guess you didn't watch the Devils play. All they did was attack. They also had a lot less people floating on the backcheck. I'm sure it's the system's fault that Briere and others can't play D.

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Matchups, lucky breaks and health???? So the Kings, Coyotes, Capitals, Devils, and Rangers are only still playing because of matchups, luck and health and not a commitment to defense first? LOL
Welcome to the sports playoffs dude. The best team rarely wins. The healthiest good team that get's favorable matchups, and enough lucky breaks are the teams that more often than not win championships. The Rangers are there because they're good. You still have to actually be a good team.

Do you think the Phils were the best team in baseball the year they won the championship?

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Well if Lavy's system is so good why aren't more teams copying it, and more importantly anyone else won a cup playing it? Teams win cups with a commitment to defense first, not racing up and down the ice trying to win games 6-4. The Carolina cup was an aberration.
If it was an aberration how did they make it to the finals again using the same system? Seriously, think about that. The crappy system he plays has won a cup, finished 1 point out of 1st in the conference, and taken another a team to the cup final in the span of 5 years.

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Lavy got to the cup finals with Steven's team. They went 6-6 that playoff season when scoring less than 4 goals. The last two playoff seasons, with Lavy's system fully in place, no learning curve, and personnel changes to supposedly fit it, 0-13 in games when they score less than 4 goals.

This team is not built and does not play a style to win tight checking, low scoring playoff games.
In the 2010 playoffs the Flyers allowed 2.12 Goals per game before the final series, which was the same type of series as the one they just played against the Pens. So you can get out with the record when scoring less than 4 goals.

Just because they won games when they scored 4 or more doesn't mean they needed 4 goals to win. They were beating teams 4-1 and 5-0. Through the first 3 rounds they allowed 4 or more goals 5 times in 17 games. Not amazing, but not horrific either.

They are built to, and win by doing exactly what the Devils did to them. Forecheck the hell out of the opposition, make them make mistakes, and keep the puck in they're end.

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He can absolutely think for them, and come up with something to counter what NJ was doing. That's what a good coach does, game plan for his players and come up with solutions to what the other team is doing.

We saw no adjustment and nothing different.
No he cannot think for them. Seriously, that's completely absurd. How is it his fault if players make poor decisions? Wait don't answer that because I'm sure it'll be a completely ridiculous statement. The bottom line is he can't go inside they're head and say "Matt I know you're thinking about flinging the puck into the center of the ice, but that's a bad idea." You can only coach so much hockey sense into a person at this stage.

He should've seen what the Devils were doing, and recognized his team couldn't handle it in the shape they were in. He needed to find an adjustment, but he didn't and that is on him.

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So all the off season moves were wrong? They brought in a bunch of people that can't fit into this system? Do we need a roster overhaul?
Clearly that's exactly what I said.


Last edited by Protest: 05-11-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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05-11-2012, 11:58 AM
  #55
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[QUOTE=Protest;49574225]
They are built to, and win by doing exactly what the Devils did to them. Forecheck the hell out of the opposition, make them make mistakes, and keep the puck in their end[\QUOTE]Big difference though is when that happened to the devils their team didn't wet the bed.

We looked so lost on defense...the thing that killed me most was the 3 or so goals that were scored when our player started heading up ice while the puck was still in our end...rather than cover the devil going to the net for a rebound/pass..

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05-11-2012, 04:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I guess you didn't watch the Devils play. All they did was attack. They also had a lot less people floating on the backcheck. I'm sure it's the system's fault that Briere and others can't play D.
It's the system's fault when it has no counter measures to what the Devils were doing.

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Welcome to the sports playoffs dude. The best team rarely wins. The healthiest good team that get's favorable matchups, and enough lucky breaks are the teams that more often than not win championships. The Rangers are there because they're good. You still have to actually be a good team.
The "best" team rarely winning is subjective, but what is a fact is that the better DEFENSIVE teams almost always wins the series.

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Do you think the Phils were the best team in baseball the year they won the championship?
Again, "best team" is subjective. Depends on who you ask.

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
If it was an aberration how did they make it to the finals again using the same system? Seriously, think about that. The crappy system he plays has won a cup, finished 1 point out of 1st in the conference, and taken another a team to the cup final in the span of 5 years.
It has also failed to win when it doesn't produce 4 goals. The cup in Carolina was an aberration. Defense first won the Red Wings, Bruins, Devils, Avalanche, TB......(wait I'll stop there) cups.

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In the 2010 playoffs the Flyers allowed 2.12 Goals per game before the final series, which was the same type of series as the one they just played against the Pens. So you can get out with the record when scoring less than 4 goals.
You can dismiss it all you want, but if you listened yesterday, they know, and stated as much, that they have to get better DEFENSIVELY. That means CHANGE THE WAY YOU PLAY, ergo, CHANGE YOUR SYSTEM.

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Just because they won games when they scored 4 or more doesn't mean they needed 4 goals to win. They were beating teams 4-1 and 5-0. Through the first 3 rounds they allowed 4 or more goals 5 times in 17 games. Not amazing, but not horrific either.
You make my point there.

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
They are built to, and win by doing exactly what the Devils did to them. Forecheck the hell out of the opposition, make them make mistakes, and keep the puck in they're end.
If they are built that way then why didn't they do it to the Devils?

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
No he cannot think for them. Seriously, that's completely absurd. How is it his fault if players make poor decisions? Wait don't answer that because I'm sure it'll be a completely ridiculous statement. The bottom line is he can't go inside they're head and say "Matt I know you're thinking about flinging the puck into the center of the ice, but that's a bad idea." You can only coach so much hockey sense into a person at this stage.
Yes he can think for them. I really need to explain this to you?

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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
He should've seen what the Devils were doing, and recognized his team couldn't handle it in the shape they were in. He needed to find an adjustment, but he didn't and that is on him.
Exactly. His system, changes to it (finding an adjustment), are on him. Exactly my point, change the system!!!

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05-13-2012, 10:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I would have to think some sort of change in style of play is coming if you listen to the players and Holmgren speak earlier today and after the game 5 loss.
Not sure of we go full blown defensive style, but a more structured system may be implimented. The thing is tho, after playing this way for 2 plus seasons. It will take time for the players to adapt to it and that would take patience. Something I dont think many Flyer fans have to be honest.
I listen to Homer say that stuff about "changing the way we play," followed by Lavy defending his system. I'll bet Homer wins this one in the end.

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05-13-2012, 11:00 PM
  #58
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it will be easier to blame the goalie if we go to a "defensive minded" team when we lose games 3-2 and outshoot the opposition 34-12.

oh wait, nmind. completely forgot the goaltender is without fault. my bad.

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05-13-2012, 11:06 PM
  #59
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He's a great coach with a knack for calling timeouts but his system is in need of an overhaul just like holmgren pulled last year, maybe it's time for a coaching change all together, I like lavy a lot but if the system doesn't play to the strengths of the players you have what's the point?

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05-14-2012, 12:05 AM
  #60
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Per Meltzer's blog post...doesn't look like Laviolette is going to change his system much b/c it sounds like that he wants it to be the Flyers identity. I guess against tight D teams like the Rangers, Devils and Tampa our identity will continue to be one of frustration...

Laviolette better hope Bryz is much better and the D healthier.....adding an additional top 4 guy will also help.

Quote:
When the Flyers held their postseason wrapup press conferences last Thursday, Paul Holmgren said that the team needs to reduce its goals against average next season. Peter Laviolette agreed.

However, when it came to the means of accomplishing the goal, the general manager and head coach did not appear to be completely on the same page right now.

Said Holmgren, "There is no question in my mind that we have to do a better job with goals against. It is related to Ilya a little bit. It is related a little bit to how we play. We are an offensive team that can score. We just finished a five game series where we didn't score a lot of goals. We certainly didn't generate a lot of offensive chances."

Laviolette, on the other hand, got a bit defensive (no pun intended) when asked about whether the team's attacking system needed to be altered. He answered the query with two questions of his own.

"Do you think that attack systems have ever won Stanley Cups before? Do you think that attack systems have ever gotten to the Finals before?" Laviolette responded.

He then added, "We needed to do a better job certainly in a lot of areas. I think defensively we could have been better. Offensively, in the playoffs we generated the least amount of shots and opportunities."

But, here, Laviolette was referring only to the New Jersey series, while Holmgren was referring both to the series and a season-long inconsistency in the club's defensive play.

I agree with the GM that the team's style of play was part of the root cause this season, along with the up-and-down play of the goaltender (and the defenders in front of him) within the system it employs. The latter part is up to the players. The former is something the coaching staff needs to look at this offseason.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...Blame/45/44398

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05-14-2012, 12:16 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Per Meltzer's blog post...doesn't look like Laviolette is going to change his system much b/c it sounds like that he wants it to be the Flyers identity. I guess against tight D teams like the Rangers, Devils and Tampa our identity will continue to be one of frustration...

Laviolette better hope Bryz is much better and the D healthier.....adding an additional top 4 guy will also help.
Looks like Homer would choose "Defense First" if he responded to the poll. LOL

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05-14-2012, 12:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
He's a great coach with a knack for calling timeouts but his system is in need of an overhaul just like holmgren pulled last year, maybe it's time for a coaching change all together, I like lavy a lot but if the system doesn't play to the strengths of the players you have what's the point?
Yeah, agreed. A lot of people here are defending Laviolette by saying his system is great, and cite his winning the Cup as proof. That is erroneous logic, though, and, like you said, there's no point in having a system that doesn't play to the strengths of the players. I don't think any system is inherently bad or good (OK, let's leave the extremes aside for now), but is only as good as it is implemented in that particular instance by the players. Perhaps Laviolette's system would've worked if he had more defensmen healthy, and I guess we'll never know, but the injuries we've had this year isn't something unheard of in this league, so I feel as if he should've adjusted his style.

On the other hand, I don't think he did a bad job at all. Look how good the rookies were, and who's to say they've would've had an impact playing a different style of hockey or on other teams. So I do feel he played to our strengths, but ultimately the team as it stood might've just not been good enough to go all the way. As far as that's concerned, I'd say no one predicted us to win the Cup before the season began, and the only thing that stings is that many people would've predicted based on the names alone that we'd beat the Devils. But that could also have been a misjudgement of how good the players on the respective teams are, not how well the coaches' systems worked.

But in the end, I really don't know enough to judge whether Lavy needs to get replaced by a coach that will implement a different system.

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05-14-2012, 01:19 AM
  #63
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Yeah, agreed. A lot of people here are defending Laviolette by saying his system is great, and cite his winning the Cup as proof. That is erroneous logic, though, and, like you said, there's no point in having a system that doesn't play to the strengths of the players. I don't think any system is inherently bad or good (OK, let's leave the extremes aside for now), but is only as good as it is implemented in that particular instance by the players. Perhaps Laviolette's system would've worked if he had more defensmen healthy, and I guess we'll never know, but the injuries we've had this year isn't something unheard of in this league, so I feel as if he should've adjusted his style.

On the other hand, I don't think he did a bad job at all. Look how good the rookies were, and who's to say they've would've had an impact playing a different style of hockey or on other teams. So I do feel he played to our strengths, but ultimately the team as it stood might've just not been good enough to go all the way. As far as that's concerned, I'd say no one predicted us to win the Cup before the season began, and the only thing that stings is that many people would've predicted based on the names alone that we'd beat the Devils. But that could also have been a misjudgement of how good the players on the respective teams are, not how well the coaches' systems worked.

But in the end, I really don't know enough to judge whether Lavy needs to get replaced by a coach that will implement a different system.
I mean......at times it looked as though we were a bottom of the league team and with the players we have, that shouldn't ever happen. This is how I don't get it though, it worked out fine against the devils during the regular season, why was is so much worse in the playoffs? I mean the regular season games were never total domination like this series was, and with the injuries I think that no doubt had to do with it, cause Timonen, Grossmann, Voracek, JVR and I forget the other 2 that were having surgeries done afterwards

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05-14-2012, 07:30 AM
  #64
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lol, this thread is funny. "have a system that plays to the strength of the players"... That's exactly what we have. High tempo, hard skating, hard forechecking, offensive attack.

We have so many offensive weapons up front, why would we waste them? It's clear our goaltending and Defense are having issues right now.

It's hard to expect to have Pronger for a few years, only to lose him abruptly. It's hard to try to fill that void half way through the season with Kubina and Grossmann. It's hard to lose Mezzy for the playoffs. He was a big proponent of our D. It's hard to watch Kimmo start to have visible signs of decline.

It's have to see Bryz struggle in his year with the team.

Think of when we went to the Finals, that is what the team is capable of when healthy. The system is the same..

We had injuries, we were emotionally drained, our goalie problem believe it or not was worse than when we had a Boucher/Leighton split. And let's not forget we are facing a very good team in NJD, GIVE THEM CREDIT.

The system works, and I love the way they play. If Lavi needs to adjust it a bit until we can stabalize our defensive players, than it's a good course of action.

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05-14-2012, 08:25 AM
  #65
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Here is what I've learned so far in this year Play-offs:

1. This is "The Year of the Coach"- only well coached teams advanced to conference finals.

2. This is "The year of the Forecheck"- it seems that every team has employed this style of play.

3. If forecheck fails successful teams utilize tight team defence

4. And if that fails they rely on excellent goalkeeping.

The way I see it, Flyers were not top notch in any of these things this season. I understand that our D corps were banged up and playing hurt (and no one can be good at their job when hurt), but there were issues with tactic, ice time managment, etc.

To summarize, Flyers system needs to be adjusted at the top and needs better execution by the personnel, especially, in the categories of team defence and goal tending.

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05-14-2012, 08:39 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
Here is what I've learned so far in this year Play-offs:

1. This is "The Year of the Coach"- only well coached teams advanced to conference finals.

2. This is "The year of the Forecheck"- it seems that every team has employed this style of play.

3. If forecheck fails successful teams utilize tight team defence

4. And if that fails they rely on excellent goalkeeping.

The way I see it, Flyers were not top notch in any of these things this season. I understand that our D corps were banged up and playing hurt (and no one can be good at their job when hurt), but there were issues with tactic, ice time managment, etc.

To summarize, Flyers system needs to be adjusted at the top and needs better execution by the personnel, especially, in the categories of team defence and goal tending.
I agree with most of this, not with the coaching cause I ****ing hate tortarella, guy always looks like he's smelling dog ****.......anyway, I agree with your summarization, I think with the players we have and the depth we have the ice time needs to be sprinkled around a little more, schenn especially I think needs more time I think he might be a 50 point player this upcoming season

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05-14-2012, 08:44 AM
  #67
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I honestly thought that the defense/counter-punch system we used in some of the Pittsburgh games was extremely effective. There's no reason to play a highly defensive system like St. Louis employed with our personnel, but there is also no reason why there can't be accountability for blown assignments, especially from our forwards.

Basically, I could live with a few odd man breaks associated with our forwards flying up the ice or our D-men being aggressive on the pinch, but the abysmal in-zone coverage on defense when the other team has established possession isn't a by-product of a system so much as it is an issue of personnel accountability, attention to that side of the ice in practice, and overall coaching. The front of the net was vacated far, far too often.

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05-14-2012, 11:47 AM
  #68
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Looks like Homer would choose "Defense First" if he responded to the poll. LOL

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05-14-2012, 04:19 PM
  #69
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Recorded zone entries reveals that the lack of a defensive system had little to do with losing the series, it was actually the other way around:

http://philly.sbnation.com/philadelp...2-zone-entries

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05-14-2012, 05:12 PM
  #70
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Poll is running 30-30, dead even!!!

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05-14-2012, 09:54 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I honestly thought that the defense/counter-punch system we used in some of the Pittsburgh games was extremely effective. There's no reason to play a highly defensive system like St. Louis employed with our personnel, but there is also no reason why there can't be accountability for blown assignments, especially from our forwards.

Basically, I could live with a few odd man breaks associated with our forwards flying up the ice or our D-men being aggressive on the pinch, but the abysmal in-zone coverage on defense when the other team has established possession isn't a by-product of a system so much as it is an issue of personnel accountability, attention to that side of the ice in practice, and overall coaching. The front of the net was vacated far, far too often.
pretty darn well said

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05-14-2012, 09:57 PM
  #72
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We have so many offensive weapons up front, why would we waste them?
Because that's not what wins in the Springtime.

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05-14-2012, 10:07 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I honestly thought that the defense/counter-punch system we used in some of the Pittsburgh games was extremely effective. There's no reason to play a highly defensive system like St. Louis employed with our personnel, but there is also no reason why there can't be accountability for blown assignments, especially from our forwards.

Basically, I could live with a few odd man breaks associated with our forwards flying up the ice or our D-men being aggressive on the pinch, but the abysmal in-zone coverage on defense when the other team has established possession isn't a by-product of a system so much as it is an issue of personnel accountability, attention to that side of the ice in practice, and overall coaching. The front of the net was vacated far, far too often.

Absolutely. These are NHL quality Dmen that don't know how to swing coverages as the puck is cycled. Fwds that are not strong on or to the puck. There's some basic stuff that needs to be fixed. I thought we looked fantastic defensively against Pitt but guess that was an anomaly.

If we tighten things up in our own end we should be a monster team with the Fwds and lavis offense system. I like how nashville plays in their own end a lot

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05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
  #74
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Because that's not what wins in the Springtime.
2010 Chicago Blackhawks say whats up. It changes from year to year. Sometimes its depth, sometimes its an elite goalie, sometimes its super tight defense. Don't try and mimic whatevers hot right now. Prepare a team to say in different types of games. It doesn't have to be ONE system.

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05-14-2012, 11:19 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
2010 Chicago Blackhawks say whats up. It changes from year to year. Sometimes its depth, sometimes its an elite goalie, sometimes its super tight defense. Don't try and mimic whatevers hot right now. Prepare a team to say in different types of games. It doesn't have to be ONE system.
Couldn't agree more.

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