HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Stand-Up Goalie, the dying breed?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-14-2012, 12:04 PM
  #26
RobertKron
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8spokesontheB View Post
I remember on the old video games where if you were making a goalie you would choose between "stand-up" and "butterfly".

It amuses me to hear people say "the hybrid is here to stay" because that's what's been said about every goaltending style! I'd bet my lunch that sooner or later - probably later - some hotshot will come along who can play great stand-up 'tender, and then some kids will follow who admired him.
I'd be really curious if you could find a goalie coach basically anywhere right now that teaches standup.

RobertKron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 01:50 PM
  #27
Silence Of The Plams
Zemgod
 
Silence Of The Plams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancaster, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 18,350
vCash: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by MW View Post
I'd be really curious if you could find a goalie coach basically anywhere right now that teaches standup.
For me it wasn't something taught to me. I felt most comfortable in a stand up ish position. I think if you play a certain style since a youngin, its there to stay for you. Even if it does change. Traces stay with you. Believe it or not all stances by the guys aren't all similar, obviously. The only tweaks really depend on little things.

Silence Of The Plams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 01:55 PM
  #28
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank4Hart View Post
francois allaire killed it.
I hate the guy, we now have a bunch of cookie cutter 6'3" or > goalies that go down the second the puck crosses the blue line or goes behind the net. The objective is now to take up space rather than make a save. They are effective but I don't revel in the skills of a guy like Mike Smith.

Beerfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 09:10 PM
  #29
missingchicklet
Registered User
 
missingchicklet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,605
vCash: 500
Stand up goalies are are gone already. Perhaps it would be more apt to ask if hybrid goalies are a dying breed. Butterfly is the dominant style now and will be for some time to come.

missingchicklet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 09:36 PM
  #30
mytor4*
 
mytor4*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,175
vCash: 500
With the size of goalies and their gear today there is no need for it.
You don't have to be as skillful today . Just learn to play positional and let the gear do the rest.

mytor4* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 10:22 PM
  #31
mizzoublues29
Unregistered User
 
mizzoublues29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Columbia, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 1,942
vCash: 500
If you don't think it takes skill to play the modern b-fly, you are either misinformed or completely ignorant to the position.

mizzoublues29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 10:23 PM
  #32
rumrokh
Jake the Snake Man
 
rumrokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I hate the guy, we now have a bunch of cookie cutter 6'3" or > goalies that go down the second the puck crosses the blue line or goes behind the net. The objective is now to take up space rather than make a save. They are effective but I don't revel in the skills of a guy like Mike Smith.
Then why isn't every goalie just as good?

rumrokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 11:33 PM
  #33
Samzilla
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Samzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I hate the guy, we now have a bunch of cookie cutter 6'3" or > goalies that go down the second the puck crosses the blue line or goes behind the net. The objective is now to take up space rather than make a save. They are effective but I don't revel in the skills of a guy like Mike Smith.
Umm...see...well...errr....ah, forget it.

Samzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 11:41 PM
  #34
CanadianHockey
Smith - Alfie
 
CanadianHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,789
vCash: 500
Brodeur is the closest thing we have to a stand-up and he's a hybrid. That should tell you that stand-up is dead.

__________________
CanadianHockey________ __ __________Sens, Oilers, and Team Canada
CanadianHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:00 AM
  #35
whatthef
Failure is an Option
 
whatthef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Upper Darby
Country: United States
Posts: 4,625
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITM View Post
"Dying"?

Dead long ago.
I came here to say this. Clearly OP hasn't been paying attention. Something like 80% of goals are scored no more than 1 inches of the ice (per an old coach of mine). It makes the most sense to protect that then, hence butterfly goalies. This won't be changing.

whatthef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:37 AM
  #36
RobBrown4PM
Pringles?
 
RobBrown4PM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,986
vCash: 500
Welcome to 15-20 years ago.

The stand-up technique is extinct.

RobBrown4PM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:50 AM
  #37
Noir
Registered User
 
Noir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vancouver, CAN
Posts: 593
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
I hate the guy, we now have a bunch of cookie cutter 6'3" or > goalies that go down the second the puck crosses the blue line or goes behind the net. The objective is now to take up space rather than make a save. They are effective but I don't revel in the skills of a guy like Mike Smith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by topdog View Post
With the size of goalies and their gear today there is no need for it.
You don't have to be as skillful today . Just learn to play positional and let the gear do the rest.
I agree + 9000!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Then why isn't every goalie just as good?
Uuuuuh, not as good when you're comparing your avg goalie vs. league elites. Why not try comparing eras of hockey; why the league is struggling with scoring output and pretty much a lot of the current changes to the game is an effort to remedy that.

I'm not saying that's the sole reason but it's hella contributory.

Noir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 04:58 AM
  #38
Chubros
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Dying? They're dead. Just imagine a guy today playing like this:

Look at the size of his equipment!

Maybe if the league mandates smaller gear then stand-up will become a more viable option than it is now. Pads that extend well above the knees allow butterfly goalies to close their five holes while their knees are 6 inches apart and massive shoulder pads allow for great coverage of the top half of the net from the knees. Take away these tools and perhaps the butterfly will be less dominant.

Chubros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:27 PM
  #39
ocarina
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,417
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
Look at the size of his equipment!

Maybe if the league mandates smaller gear then stand-up will become a more viable option than it is now. Pads that extend well above the knees allow butterfly goalies to close their five holes while their knees are 6 inches apart and massive shoulder pads allow for great coverage of the top half of the net from the knees. Take away these tools and perhaps the butterfly will be less dominant.
Stand-up will never be viable because it simply isn't as efficient of a style. The butterfly takes advantage of playing the percentages (on average, most shots are low) and the fact that the torso is the best part of the body to make saves with, not the arms and legs.

And IMO, you are exaggerating the equipment size. And even if it was made smaller, the butterfly would still be more effective. It's simply a smarter and more economical style of play regardless.

ocarina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:39 PM
  #40
Bones45
Registered User
 
Bones45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Low Taxville
Posts: 5,308
vCash: 500
Chubros hit the nail on the head.

The game today is impossible to watch. Its filled with huge equipment, blocked shots and defensive systems. And when you compare todays game to those of.. lets use the 1994 Couver clip from above, its as plain as day..

Rarely, are there SAVES, rather there are goalie blocks. Current mentality = Just butterfly, take up the lower part of hte net b/c there are 3 people taking up space on the angle to the upper parts of the net. result? shot blocked or wide. yawn.....

The only way hockey can get back to a more open, and offensive game, is to either make the nets bigger, the rink bigger, outlaw butterflying (which is a ***** way to play), or reduce the size of equipment.

When was the last time you saw a kick save? God I miss those days. Where is Denis Savard with all the maneuvers in teh offersive zone? Right.. there is no space left to do anything. (yawn #2)

But to commment a bit on the butterfly -- its here to stay--unfortunately. Like I mentioned in a different thread, put some oversize pads on me, and I can learn to butterfly and make some BLOCKS myself.

And as a result of butterflying, huge equipment, no space, and defensive systems, todays goalies are nowhere NEAR as talented and impressive as goalies in the past. Ya just dont HAVE to make saves anymore.. just play your angles properly, and butterfly.........

Bones45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:44 PM
  #41
SeriousHabs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Who was the last true stand-up? Kirk MacLean?
Roman Cechmanek?

SeriousHabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:47 PM
  #42
CoopALoop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Van, Bandwagoner
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones45 View Post
Chubros hit the nail on the head.

The game today is impossible to watch. Its filled with huge equipment, blocked shots and defensive systems. And when you compare todays game to those of.. lets use the 1994 Couver clip from above, its as plain as day..

Rarely, are there SAVES, rather there are goalie blocks. Current mentality = Just butterfly, take up the lower part of hte net b/c there are 3 people taking up space on the angle to the upper parts of the net. result? shot blocked or wide. yawn.....

The only way hockey can get back to a more open, and offensive game, is to either make the nets bigger, the rink bigger, outlaw butterflying (which is a ***** way to play), or reduce the size of equipment.

When was the last time you saw a kick save? God I miss those days. Where is Denis Savard with all the maneuvers in teh offersive zone? Right.. there is no space left to do anything. (yawn #2)

But to commment a bit on the butterfly -- its here to stay--unfortunately. Like I mentioned in a different thread, put some oversize pads on me, and I can learn to butterfly and make some BLOCKS myself.

And as a result of butterflying, huge equipment, no space, and defensive systems, todays goalies are nowhere NEAR as talented and impressive as goalies in the past. Ya just dont HAVE to make saves anymore.. just play your angles properly, and butterfly.........
Those rose tinted glasses are fogging your mindset.

GAA has gone down since the "dead puck" era, where the trap was all over the place and goaltending equipment was even bigger.

How do you explain the difference in less scoring with less tug and pull and smaller goalie equipment?

Hmm, maybe more focus on defense and better coaching systems have allowed less goals not just goalie equipment and the butterfly?

CoopALoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:49 PM
  #43
ocarina
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,417
vCash: 500
I just laugh whenever I see people suggest that playing the butterfly takes no skill and that anyone can do it. I don't think they realize how much athleticism, flexibility, anticipation, and skill it takes to play it well.

ocarina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 01:03 PM
  #44
Bones45
Registered User
 
Bones45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Low Taxville
Posts: 5,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoopALoop View Post
Those rose tinted glasses are fogging your mindset.

GAA has gone down since the "dead puck" era, where the trap was all over the place and goaltending equipment was even bigger.

How do you explain the difference in less scoring with less tug and pull and smaller goalie equipment?

Hmm, maybe more focus on defense and better coaching systems have allowed less goals not just goalie equipment and the butterfly?
I haven't looked at stats --GAA doesnt really matter to me. I'm talking about the difference in watching a game. Far more entertaining to watch a game with open ice, goalies stacking the pads, offensive plays than the current game today.

I was a goalie when I was younger -- never butterflyed --- and my knees and hips are far better for it. Does anyone know, or has any research been done on the long term affect on hips and knees on BF goalies?

Bones45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 01:47 PM
  #45
missinthejets
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones45 View Post
Chubros hit the nail on the head.

The game today is impossible to watch. Its filled with huge equipment, blocked shots and defensive systems. And when you compare todays game to those of.. lets use the 1994 Couver clip from above, its as plain as day..

Rarely, are there SAVES, rather there are goalie blocks. Current mentality = Just butterfly, take up the lower part of hte net b/c there are 3 people taking up space on the angle to the upper parts of the net. result? shot blocked or wide. yawn.....

The only way hockey can get back to a more open, and offensive game, is to either make the nets bigger, the rink bigger, outlaw butterflying (which is a ***** way to play), or reduce the size of equipment.

When was the last time you saw a kick save? God I miss those days. Where is Denis Savard with all the maneuvers in teh offersive zone? Right.. there is no space left to do anything. (yawn #2)

But to commment a bit on the butterfly -- its here to stay--unfortunately. Like I mentioned in a different thread, put some oversize pads on me, and I can learn to butterfly and make some BLOCKS myself.

And as a result of butterflying, huge equipment, no space, and defensive systems, todays goalies are nowhere NEAR as talented and impressive as goalies in the past. Ya just dont HAVE to make saves anymore.. just play your angles properly, and butterfly.........
if a goalie tried to play standup today in the age of composite sticks where every player can fire a wrist shot 90+ miles an hour every shot that gets through the defence will go in. Equipment advances help everyone not just the goalies, the butterfly style was part of goalies adapting to better shooters too let's not forget.

If you really want to make the game more offensive there's only one way to do it, take coaching out of the game. Coaches don't get paid to teach teams how to outscore their opponents, they get paid to teach teams how to out defend their opponents, just the way it goes. You can make all the other changes you want, but coaches will eventually figure out how to limit scoring and you're back where you started. Goals alone don't make a hockey game exciting, it's the flow of the game back and forth that makes for an exciting game.

missinthejets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 02:06 PM
  #46
Bones45
Registered User
 
Bones45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Low Taxville
Posts: 5,308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
if a goalie tried to play standup today in the age of composite sticks where every player can fire a wrist shot 90+ miles an hour every shot that gets through the defence will go in.
90mph wristers?

Really?

Bones45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 02:58 PM
  #47
Breakingbad28
Registered User
 
Breakingbad28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 585
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Who was the last true stand-up? Kirk MacLean?
turco

Breakingbad28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 08:04 PM
  #48
mizzoublues29
Unregistered User
 
mizzoublues29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Columbia, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 1,942
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones45 View Post
Chubros hit the nail on the head.

The game today is impossible to watch. Its filled with huge equipment, blocked shots and defensive systems. And when you compare todays game to those of.. lets use the 1994 Couver clip from above, its as plain as day..

Rarely, are there SAVES, rather there are goalie blocks. Current mentality = Just butterfly, take up the lower part of hte net b/c there are 3 people taking up space on the angle to the upper parts of the net. result? shot blocked or wide. yawn.....

The only way hockey can get back to a more open, and offensive game, is to either make the nets bigger, the rink bigger, outlaw butterflying (which is a ***** way to play), or reduce the size of equipment.

When was the last time you saw a kick save? God I miss those days. Where is Denis Savard with all the maneuvers in teh offersive zone? Right.. there is no space left to do anything. (yawn #2)

But to commment a bit on the butterfly -- its here to stay--unfortunately. Like I mentioned in a different thread, put some oversize pads on me, and I can learn to butterfly and make some BLOCKS myself.

And as a result of butterflying, huge equipment, no space, and defensive systems, todays goalies are nowhere NEAR as talented and impressive as goalies in the past. Ya just dont HAVE to make saves anymore.. just play your angles properly, and butterfly.
........
If it was that simple, I'd be in the NHL.

mizzoublues29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 09:20 PM
  #49
Kirikanoir
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Just imagine a guy today playing like this:

Well if he stops 54 shots and wins the game i would not care what style he plays.

Kirikanoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 09:24 PM
  #50
Kirikanoir
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,128
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
This is a big part of it. Goalies use to be the small guy who was picked last but it has evolved into a more respected position with bigger guys. If someone like Rinne who is 6'5 were to try and play standing up a large part of his torso would be wasted above the crossbar.
Ken Dryden Height: 6-4

It did not seem to be a problem for Ken Dryden.

Kirikanoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.