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Old
05-10-2012, 11:35 AM
  #51
DarkReign
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
On the flip side you name me a player not on an ELC contract that does what Franzen does for similar pay?
I assume youre referring to caphit because a player's salary means nothing to fans.

Kind of loaded question you just asked. Franzen's caphit is only so low because its a lifetime deal. So your comparable contracts are limited to those with similar length deals.

I cant really think of a player with such a low caphit and a lifetime deal to compare.

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05-10-2012, 11:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Hindsight is 20/20, especially on this board, where it's used to bash Holland.
So my mention of Ryder as a guy w/ similar production to Franzen at a cheaper cap hit is a slight on Holland? Somebody's gotta post an FAQ for the Wings board here, explaining all of the subtle nuances and unwritten rules (which I suppose would then make them "written" rules) that posters need to follow to avoid unknowingly bashing Holland/management/Babcock/Franzen etc.

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05-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
And of course you being critical of Franzen has no bias whatsoever and are being completely rational.

Is Semin a better player than Franzen? Sure. Will he make double what Franzen makes right now cap wise? Possibly.

Semin is probably more responsible defensively, but he still is extremely streaky. I would love to have Semin on the Wings, I think he would be a great fit. But he is who he is. He probably wants a 1 year deal, wants 6m+ and he's super injury prone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Alex Semin is defensively responsible when he feels like it. Maybe half the time. The other half he's floating, taking stupid penalties, and being generally very selfish in the offensive zone. He's been benched several times and has recently seen the 4th line. Real winner, that Semin. Really disappointing to see so many Wings fans pine for him, often the same people who rail on Franzen, who, when considering more than just this past year, offers more value than Semin.

Biased against him? Of course. Just as I'm biased against any player with a litany of unattractive qualities. And just as I'm biased for players like Zach Parise, who offer a litany of valuable qualities. And just how you are clearly biased against Franzen. If you have no bias in how you view NHL players, then you view them all as equals.
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Originally Posted by chances14 View Post
i find it ironic when you bring in the number of goals scored into the discussion considering how you just waive off the fact that franzen led the wings in goals this season
I dont hate Franzen as a player and I do not think he is overpaid. I dont think his contract sucks but will start to really suck in 2 years, but if I were him, I would have signed the same deal fast as fast can be.

What I dont like is his role on the team. He is *supposed* to be the team's primary scoring winger. He barely qualifies as a primary scorer on a true contender. His effort level sucks the high hard one. His offensive prowess is grossly exaggerated on these boards to fit his "Playoff Beast Mode" narrative which is so far removed from reality at this stage, it has become irritating.

Franzen as the #2 winger is fine, great even. Franzen as the #1 and people defending him when compared to others with more ability in every facet of hockey strikes me as blind homerism. There are far better options for the #1 wing spot than Johan "Faux Mule" Franzen.

Its his expected role on the team that drives me crazy. He scores as much as he does because this team has no other viable option. You bring in Semin or Parise and youre going to watch Franzen's 25+g drop like a stone. He only scores that much because of the situations he's used in.

TL;DR version
I dont like his role on the team. He needs to be relegated to 2nd line/2nd PP duties and no higher. His effort is questionable damn near every game. His contract does not suck...yet.

EDITED: And for all the "Semin takes dumb penalties" talk, Semin averages one minor penalty more than Franzen every ~5 games. PIM/G = Mule: .519 Semin: .727


Last edited by DarkReign: 05-10-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old
05-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
So my mention of Ryder as a guy w/ similar production to Franzen at a cheaper cap hit is a slight on Holland? Somebody's gotta post an FAQ for the Wings board here, explaining all of the subtle nuances and unwritten rules (which I suppose would then make them "written" rules) that posters need to follow to avoid unknowingly bashing Holland/management/Babcock/Franzen etc.
dear god, that would be a 100 page article.

please include if you mention how you like the way any other team plays and would like to incorporate some of that to our team, it will be pointed out how many teams we have won or they have not won in a direct effort to prove their is only one way to do things, one way to win, one way to enjoy hockey, etc.

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05-10-2012, 04:32 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Alex Semin is defensively responsible when he feels like it. Maybe half the time. The other half he's floating, taking stupid penalties, and being generally very selfish in the offensive zone. He's been benched several times and has recently seen the 4th line. Real winner, that Semin. Really disappointing to see so many Wings fans pine for him, often the same people who rail on Franzen, who, when considering more than just this past year, offers more value than Semin.

Biased against him? Of course. Just as I'm biased against any player with a litany of unattractive qualities. And just as I'm biased for players like Zach Parise, who offer a litany of valuable qualities. And just how you are clearly biased against Franzen. If you have no bias in how you view NHL players, then you view them all as equals.
Semin has looked way better lately, but lets say we sign him and he is lazy defensively, there is still a major difference between him and Franzen...

Semin likes scoring goals! Franzen looks like he'd rather be anywhere but on the ice. No effort on either end, really.

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05-10-2012, 04:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Megan Foxs Thumbs View Post
Semin has looked way better lately, but lets say we sign him and he is lazy defensively, there is still a major difference between him and Franzen...

Semin likes scoring goals! Franzen looks like he'd rather be anywhere but on the ice. No effort on either end, really.
In the last 5 years the only time Semin has scored more goals than Franzen was when Franzen was injured and missed most of the season.

I've got nothing against Semin but the amount that Franzen is underrated here is pretty incredible especially since he makes a lot less than Semin as well.

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05-10-2012, 04:43 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan Foxs Thumbs View Post
Semin has looked way better lately, but lets say we sign him and he is lazy defensively, there is still a major difference between him and Franzen...

Semin likes scoring goals! Franzen looks like he'd rather be anywhere but on the ice. No effort on either end, really.
Franzen and Semin average around the same amount of goals per season. Semin is also goalless in his last 8 games.

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05-10-2012, 04:44 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Face it, Franzen may be the biggest floater in the league outside Penner. Franzen is the NHL standard for floater. Few in the league compare to his ineffectual play, worthless effort on the backcheck and predictability in the offensive zone all while having the worst "ho-hum" attitude before, during and afterword.
You spelled Patrick Kane wrong.

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05-10-2012, 04:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
In the last 5 years the only time Semin has scored more goals than Franzen was when Franzen was injured and missed most of the season.

I've got nothing against Semin but the amount that Franzen is underrated here is pretty incredible especially since he makes a lot less than Semin as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Franzen and Semin average around the same amount of goals per season. Semin is also goalless in his last 8 games.
Haha, it was a hyperbole no doubt. Just so frustrated with Mule, he has put up solid numbers but he could do so much more. He could be top5 in goals every season if he had the drive.

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05-10-2012, 04:48 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Franzen and Semin average around the same amount of goals per season. Semin is also goalless in his last 8 games.
Semin averages almost a full goal per game more than Franzen does. And FTR I would not want to see him in DET.

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05-10-2012, 04:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
You spelled Patrick Kane wrong.
Some truth to what you say. But Kane makes more and is a far better player with the added benefit of being a legit #1 winger on a contender.

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05-10-2012, 06:48 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
Semin averages almost a full goal per game more than Franzen does. And FTR I would not want to see him in DET.
You have to keep in mind Semin benefited from Washington's "Let's just score 5 goals and hope for the best" era of hockey. Now that Washington is actually trying to play defense, surprise, Semin's numbers are sliding.

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05-10-2012, 07:10 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
You have to keep in mind Semin benefited from Washington's "Let's just score 5 goals and hope for the best" era of hockey. Now that Washington is actually trying to play defense, surprise, Semin's numbers are sliding.
That's what concerns me about him - I don't see him putting up the numbers in our system that he used to in Washington.

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05-11-2012, 10:51 AM
  #64
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Haha, why is this inserted into so many posts? I'd rather have Franzen AND Brown. Or Franzen AND Semin or Franzen AND Parise or Franzen AND Parise AND Semin.
The post I was responding to said this "Some other comparables salary wise to Franzen that I'd take over him include". I inserted that into my post because it was directly in the post I was responding to. Obviously I'd rather have Franzen and Brown.

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05-13-2012, 02:00 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
The post I was responding to said this "Some other comparables salary wise to Franzen that I'd take over him include". I inserted that into my post because it was directly in the post I was responding to. Obviously I'd rather have Franzen and Brown.
Salary now only tells part of the tale. Brown will be due for a new contract in 2 years when he hits age 29. And he'll certainly, without a doubt, be making more than Franzen then for many years.

It's a bargain now, but so was Franzen's salary at Brown's age. Franzen got his big deal at age 29, too.

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05-13-2012, 05:07 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by KingzOverAcez View Post
Semin averages almost a full goal per game more than Franzen does. And FTR I would not want to see him in DET.
Ok, so Franzen scores about 0.35 goals a game. That means that according to you that Semin scores 1.35 goals per game. That comes to 111 goals per season. And you wouldn't want that production on the Wings? I think that we need to reconsider a few stats before posting.

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05-13-2012, 06:52 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Franzen and Semin average around the same amount of goals per season. Semin is also goalless in his last 8 games.
When Goals Per Game are taken into account, it isn't even close.

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05-14-2012, 03:40 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CloneHakanPlease View Post
When Goals Per Game are taken into account, it isn't even close.
In general, healthy player is usually better than some injury riddled eating popcorn.

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05-15-2012, 02:01 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
EDITED: And for all the "Semin takes dumb penalties" talk, Semin averages one minor penalty more than Franzen every ~5 games. PIM/G = Mule: .519 Semin: .727
Number of penalties taken ≠ number of stupid penalties taken. Your stat is reflective of someone who wants Semin but who hasn't watched him a whole lot. When it comes to stupid penalties, at least the past 2-3 years, Semin is near the top of the NHL leaderboard. His are often very untimely, or in the offensive zone, or because he's simply frustrated, or because he's being lazy. And usually some combination of more than one of those.

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05-15-2012, 10:52 AM
  #70
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CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.700m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.200m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Darren Helm ($1.800m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Barret Jackman ($3.500m) / Kyle Quincey ($2.400m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Josh Harding ($0.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,258,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $41,288

i didnt account for any cap increases (estimated to go up to 70 mil so we hear) but this roster is entirely possible and somewhat reasonable considering the track record of our management. i also kind of doubt we sign both parise and suter but hey, i can dream and it can work under the current cap even. this scenario would require no trades.

*changes are.... start with parise

he is worth more then Z but not what pav is. signing him to the same cap hit as pav keeps things in perspective from both sides.

1. wings perspective contract of 6.7 says the wings wont pay you more then pavel datsyuk, but want you bad enough to match the contract with one of the best players in the game. (which is probably a little high, but it's a players market).

2. from parises perspective. 6.7 mil per season is a LOT of money. the fact that the wings would be willing to pay him the same amount they pay pav should flatter him but also say hey, noone in a red wings uni up front will make more then pav. he should respect that.

*this all starts when we find out nick and holmstrom will retire

*first we try to ease the blow of losing nick and sign suter at 7 mil per season. says we want you, as our #1, for now and the future. may be overpayment again but once again it's a players market.
*second we sign parise
*let stuart, kindl, hudler walk
*re-sign abs, helm both get nice raises
*sign jackman for 3.5 (he makes slightly more, with increase in cap we could accommodate that though 3.5 seems quite fair if he wanted to come here
*re-sign quincey.... not the best situation but we gave up a 1st to get him might as well give him 1 year to prove he was worth it..... probably overpayment but is less then his current contract by a good amount and if he doesn't want it he can walk and be replaced if need be.
*promote nyquil
*sign harding as backup slightly less then a mill (if cap increases we can throw a little more at him)
* i had to waive eaves to make this all work as his cap hit was a little higher then emmertons. with cap increase he could stay on board and i wouldnt mind that too much if he can get healthy. i would much rather have let cleary go... but we all know thats not going to happen so i tried to be as realistic as i could. emmerton replaced him on the 4th line


if i were gm... i would get rid of cleary and ericcson as well and continue the remodeling. could sign someone like kenopka if cleary were gone. ericcson could have carkner or someone actually tough replace him.

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Old
05-15-2012, 01:38 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangleDangleBeach View Post
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.700m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.200m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Darren Helm ($1.800m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Barret Jackman ($3.500m) / Kyle Quincey ($2.400m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Josh Harding ($0.800m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,258,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $41,288

i didnt account for any cap increases (estimated to go up to 70 mil so we hear) but this roster is entirely possible and somewhat reasonable considering the track record of our management. i also kind of doubt we sign both parise and suter but hey, i can dream and it can work under the current cap even. this scenario would require no trades.

*changes are.... start with parise

he is worth more then Z but not what pav is. signing him to the same cap hit as pav keeps things in perspective from both sides.

1. wings perspective contract of 6.7 says the wings wont pay you more then pavel datsyuk, but want you bad enough to match the contract with one of the best players in the game. (which is probably a little high, but it's a players market).

2. from parises perspective. 6.7 mil per season is a LOT of money. the fact that the wings would be willing to pay him the same amount they pay pav should flatter him but also say hey, noone in a red wings uni up front will make more then pav. he should respect that.

*this all starts when we find out nick and holmstrom will retire

*first we try to ease the blow of losing nick and sign suter at 7 mil per season. says we want you, as our #1, for now and the future. may be overpayment again but once again it's a players market.
*second we sign parise
*let stuart, kindl, hudler walk
*re-sign abs, helm both get nice raises
*sign jackman for 3.5 (he makes slightly more, with increase in cap we could accommodate that though 3.5 seems quite fair if he wanted to come here
*re-sign quincey.... not the best situation but we gave up a 1st to get him might as well give him 1 year to prove he was worth it..... probably overpayment but is less then his current contract by a good amount and if he doesn't want it he can walk and be replaced if need be.
*promote nyquil
*sign harding as backup slightly less then a mill (if cap increases we can throw a little more at him)
* i had to waive eaves to make this all work as his cap hit was a little higher then emmertons. with cap increase he could stay on board and i wouldnt mind that too much if he can get healthy. i would much rather have let cleary go... but we all know thats not going to happen so i tried to be as realistic as i could. emmerton replaced him on the 4th line


if i were gm... i would get rid of cleary and ericcson as well and continue the remodeling. could sign someone like kenopka if cleary were gone. ericcson could have carkner or someone actually tough replace him.
Well there are a lot of interesting things to chew on this.

Kindl should be traded, he is under contract and very reasonable if you want him gone move him for at least a mid-round pick, not outright waive him or let him walk, which he cannot do. I don't think he should be moved at all unless an upgrade exists he is a very good young 7th d-man that has value.

Kronwall and Suter play the same side as far as defensive positions, maybe Suter can adapt to the right we will have to find out if Lidstrom comes back but that isn't the case in your model and I don't think that pairing is going to work.

Salary deals are not done by who gets paid more and most important any agent worth his salt will point out that Datsyuk's contract meant more to the cap percentage. Much as Doughty after much hemming and hawing wound up above Kopitar in LA. Furthermore an UFA doesn't care about that, some other team and I would argue most of them won't be concerned with matching Datsyuk's contract. That is not how an open market concept works, you might sell guys in house on the discount but it will be hard to get free agent signings to agree. By the way in case you are curious about this look what Hossa made when he signed his one year deal, it was more than Datsyuk because that is the essence of free agency.

Also and I could be wrong but I am almost certain they cannot lower Quincey's salary and not by the amount that you are purposing. Most RFA's in order to qualify them must get a 10% increase. Not totally clear but it isn't dropping like that.

Finally if those really are the D-men we have, get ready for Grand Rapids Smith, just because you hate Ericsson doesn't mean in any universe that Holland and Babcock ( said glowing things towards the end of the season) are even close to viewing him in the same light. They promoted him to the top four late in the season and all gave positive reviews to his season. He isn't sitting before White, Quincey or Smith.

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