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Old
05-15-2012, 11:43 AM
  #1
Novacain
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Stl-Phx

This is a trade that was talked about in the Blues forum, and I thought it was interesting and balanced enough to get the opinions of others.

Coyotes get:
Jaden Schwartz

Blues get:
Brandon Gormley

It's kinda like when the Blues traded Rundblad to get Tarasenko, in it's 2 players of just about equal value. Schwartz looks to be a potential 1st line and a very solid bet to be a 2nd line winger. Gormley looks to be a potential first pairing defensemen, and a very solid bet at the 2nd pair. Both are young, talented, and in a position of depth on their teams, but would help fill a gap on the other.

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05-15-2012, 12:01 PM
  #2
puckerdude10
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I think the value is there but I dont see a reason for the Blues to do this and here is why. Yes we need a LHD to pair with Petro but Gormley is still a few years away and I think we can trade for or sign an option that can step in now. IMHO Ian Cole if given the two or three years Gormley would need to develop into that role Cole would be more then capable by then as well so the need for Gomley is moot. I also see Jaden as integral to our future as we need a first line playmaker because we do not have any others in the system. He is also ahead of Gormley in his development a bit and is already signed and with the team. I think your proposal is good value but IMO it is not a deal the Blues would make because it does not help us enough now and in the future I think it would be a wash. Some of my fellow Blues fans may disagree but I do not see this type of deal being something Army does.

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05-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Alklha
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I'd love for us to pick up Gormley, but moving Schwartz for him makes no sense. We fill a hole on LHD, but we likely create a significant one on LW at the end of next season.

Rattie+ for Gormley is the deal that makes the most sense for the Blues, whether or not that interests the Coyotes is another thing entirely.

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:54 PM
  #4
Novacain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
I'd love for us to pick up Gormley, but moving Schwartz for him makes no sense. We fill a hole on LHD, but we likely create a significant one on LW at the end of next season.

Rattie+ for Gormley is the deal that makes the most sense for the Blues, whether or not that interests the Coyotes is another thing entirely.
I really don't agree here. Sobotka is a very solid 3rd line LW, behind Steen and Perron. And I don't think we got Gormley for Rattie unless we include a 1st or another good prospect.

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:57 PM
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rt
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How about Rundblad? He's a RHD.

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05-15-2012, 12:58 PM
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Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
How about Rundblad? He's a RHD.

The whole point of the trade is to get a LH. The Blues have Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk. No need for another top-4 RH.

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:59 PM
  #7
HooliganX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
How about Rundblad? He's a RHD.
The Blues have Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, and Polak on the right side all are young so there is zero chance we trade for a RHD.

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05-15-2012, 01:01 PM
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Alklha
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
I really don't agree here. Sobotka is a very solid 3rd line LW, behind Steen and Perron. And I don't think we got Gormley for Rattie unless we include a 1st or another good prospect.
McDonald to Sobotka is a fair bit of a downgrade on offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
How about Rundblad? He's a RHD.
We traded Rundblad, in part, because our RHD is set. Nothing has changed, so we wouldn't be interested in him back.

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05-15-2012, 01:03 PM
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rt
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Haha. Whoops. Complete brain misfire there, boys. My bad.

I think Jaden Schwartz is an amazing prospect.

I wouldn't trade Gormley for him. Gormley is a keeper. I think we'd be crazy to let him go before we've seen what he can do in the NHL.

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05-15-2012, 01:04 PM
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Alklha
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Haha. Whoops. Complete brain misfire there, boys. My bad.

I think Jaden Schwartz is an amazing prospect.

I wouldn't trade Gormley for him. Gormley is a keeper. I think we'd be crazy to let him go before we've seen what he can do in the NHL.
That's fair enough. Does that mean moving other LHD on or will it be a matter of playing guys on their oposite side?

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05-15-2012, 01:10 PM
  #11
Novacain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
McDonald to Sobotka is a fair bit of a downgrade on offense.



We traded Rundblad, in part, because our RHD is set. Nothing has changed, so we wouldn't be interested in him back.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be a downgrade, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an end of the world downgrade. And the dropoff from our defense if we can't produce two long term top 4 LHD's is much higher, imo.


Last edited by Novacain: 05-15-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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Old
05-15-2012, 01:14 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
Haha. Whoops. Complete brain misfire there, boys. My bad.

I think Jaden Schwartz is an amazing prospect.

I wouldn't trade Gormley for him. Gormley is a keeper. I think we'd be crazy to let him go before we've seen what he can do in the NHL.
I wouldn't move Gormley ether if I were the Coyotes.

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05-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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I don't think it necessarily means we need to move another LHD or that we will have guys on the other side. We are talking about prospects. Who the hell knows how they'll actually turn out? As a Coyotes fan I've had the opportunity to watch dozens of highly touted blue line prospects crash and burn out of the NHL.

At various points we've been over the moon with excitement about...

Dan Focht, Ossi Vaananen, Matthew Spiller, Paul Mara, David Tanabe, Matt Jones, Nick Ross, Logan Stephenson, Igor Knyazev, Brad Ference, Maxim Goncharov and many more. Things don't always work out like you hope they will.

We may have the exact right amount of D prospects to ensure a quality blue line for years to come. Hell, we may not even have enough.

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05-15-2012, 01:36 PM
  #14
Novacain
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
I don't think it necessarily means we need to move another LHD or that we will have guys on the other side. We are talking about prospects. Who the hell knows how they'll actually turn out? As a Coyotes fan I've had the opportunity to watch dozens of highly touted blue line prospects crash and burn out of the NHL.

At various points we've been over the moon with excitement about...

Dan Focht, Ossi Vaananen, Matthew Spiller, Paul Mara, David Tanabe, Matt Jones, Nick Ross, Logan Stephenson, Igor Knyazev, Brad Ference, Maxim Goncharov and many more. Things don't always work out like you hope they will.

We may have the exact right amount of D prospects to ensure a quality blue line for years to come. Hell, we may not even have enough.
I'm kinda confused by this. Like I get the point well enough, but you already have 2 guys who are completely established as top flight top LHD men in the NHL, both with a lot of time left. And, yeah, injuries can happen to anyone, but if you have a piece someone will give you key parts in a position you have a need for now, I think you have to do it.

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05-15-2012, 01:57 PM
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Alklha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
I'm not saying it wouldn't be a downgrade, I'm just saying it wouldn't be an end of the world downgrade. And the dropoff from our defense if we can't produce two long term top 4 LHD's is much higher, imo.
Maybe, but then we done what we done this season with Jackman and Colaiacovo. Sign Garrison and let Cole play and I don't think there is a significant dropoff there. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it stronger.

But we lack offensive production, and considering our centers aren't playmakers, a potential downgrade from McDonald to Sobotka would be much more significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
I don't think it necessarily means we need to move another LHD or that we will have guys on the other side. We are talking about prospects. Who the hell knows how they'll actually turn out? As a Coyotes fan I've had the opportunity to watch dozens of highly touted blue line prospects crash and burn out of the NHL.

At various points we've been over the moon with excitement about...

Dan Focht, Ossi Vaananen, Matthew Spiller, Paul Mara, David Tanabe, Matt Jones, Nick Ross, Logan Stephenson, Igor Knyazev, Brad Ference, Maxim Goncharov and many more. Things don't always work out like you hope they will.

We may have the exact right amount of D prospects to ensure a quality blue line for years to come. Hell, we may not even have enough.
I agree with Novacain here, not sure what you mean. Are OEL, Yandle and Klesla not your set LHD? In order to accodate Gormley then you are going to have no choice but to trade someone or move someone to the right side like what has happened with Schlemko.

If I was the Coyotes, if Gormley proved himself worth an NHL spot before the start of next season, I'd probably consider trading Yandle first. Premium return.

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Old
05-15-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
How about Rundblad? He's a RHD.
You sure? I've read otherwise online. HF has him as a lefty but wikipedia and yahoo have him as a righty. I always wondered what was up with that.

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05-15-2012, 02:37 PM
  #17
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You sure? I've read otherwise online. HF has him as a lefty but wikipedia and yahoo have him as a righty. I always wondered what was up with that.
He's a righty.


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05-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #18
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He's a righty.
Thanks. Would be nice if hf could change it on his profile.

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Old
05-15-2012, 03:39 PM
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I went on Phoenix' board about 2-3 months ago and inquired into what the plan was for their defense, because they can't all play. They're overloaded on D and underloaded at forward. At forward the cupboard is comparatively bare compared with the rest of the league, and some of their current key top-6 forwards are getting quite old. It makes only logical sense that they'll need to use their D assets to balance out at forward. Whether that's a trade with the Blues, who's to say? But the Blues would definitely be a team interested in one of the LHD. OEL is untouchable; so you'd think between Yandle or Gormley that Gormley would be more gettable. When I asked the Phoenix fans there was the same reaction of we'll keep them all and learn their full ceiling before making any move, which IMO isn't realistic simply due to time on ice constraints. It doesn't mean they have to be interested in what the Blues offer but I'd be shocked if they don't do something to rebalance their organization.

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05-15-2012, 04:33 PM
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I went on Phoenix' board about 2-3 months ago and inquired into what the plan was for their defense, because they can't all play. They're overloaded on D and underloaded at forward. At forward the cupboard is comparatively bare compared with the rest of the league, and some of their current key top-6 forwards are getting quite old. It makes only logical sense that they'll need to use their D assets to balance out at forward. Whether that's a trade with the Blues, who's to say? But the Blues would definitely be a team interested in one of the LHD. OEL is untouchable; so you'd think between Yandle or Gormley that Gormley would be more gettable. When I asked the Phoenix fans there was the same reaction of we'll keep them all and learn their full ceiling before making any move, which IMO isn't realistic simply due to time on ice constraints. It doesn't mean they have to be interested in what the Blues offer but I'd be shocked if they don't do something to rebalance their organization.
The only two forwards on the Phoenix corps that are getting older are Whitney and Doan and both are going to be re-signing next year if they play in Phoenix, according to Maloney.

As far as the club's lefty's go, they stand like this as far as experience and callup likelihood.

Yandle
OEL
Klesla
Schlemko
Summers
Gormley
Brodeur

Gormley and Brodeur still are waiver exempt next year, so they won't be forced to trade anyone. If they really feel like they're up against it, they'll move Schlemko, Summers or Klesla to restock the forward prospect shelf rather than any of Yandle, OEL or Gormley. And if they stay in Glendale, next year will have plenty of money and a successful year to attract new forwards to upgrade Langkow and Pyatt.

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05-15-2012, 04:46 PM
  #21
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i think the idea is schwartz/gormley idea isn't terrible, but the two teams just don't quite lineup for a deal.

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05-15-2012, 05:18 PM
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I've given it a little bit of a thought and maybe this is close.

To STL: Brandon Gormley

STL gets the top LHD we've been looking for. He's at top 20 prospect according to HF but lost in the depth chart in Phoenix.

To PHX: Ty Rattie, Matt D'Agostini, ANA's 2012 3rd round pick

Ty Rattie is probably a year off from being ready for an NHL squad, two or so years from being a 1st or 2nd line winger. He's a top 50 HF prospect but his stock is still rising. In the mean time, D'Agostini can fill his spot until he's ready for the NHL. D'Agostini is a 20 goal scorer when he's given ice time and on a bargain salary. He's definitely just lost in the maze of talented wingers STL has and won't likely see much ice time next year with Schwartz and Tarasenko making their debuts (and the Chris Stewart project going into a second year). A 3rd rounder to sweeten the deal a little bit.

Sound like an intriguing return for your asset?

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05-15-2012, 05:21 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
I'd love for us to pick up Gormley, but moving Schwartz for him makes no sense. We fill a hole on LHD, but we likely create a significant one on LW at the end of next season.

Rattie+ for Gormley is the deal that makes the most sense for the Blues, whether or not that interests the Coyotes is another thing entirely.
True but Gormley would be more valuable to this team than Schwartz, IMO. I would make that deal as a Blues fan. Coyotes rightfully say no though.

I agree that a trade around Rattie makes much more sense for us but doubtful the Coyotes go for that.

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05-15-2012, 06:19 PM
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PocketNines
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The only two forwards on the Phoenix corps that are getting older are Whitney and Doan and both are going to be re-signing next year if they play in Phoenix, according to Maloney.

As far as the club's lefty's go, they stand like this as far as experience and callup likelihood.

Yandle
OEL
Klesla
Schlemko
Summers
Gormley
Brodeur

Gormley and Brodeur still are waiver exempt next year, so they won't be forced to trade anyone. If they really feel like they're up against it, they'll move Schlemko, Summers or Klesla to restock the forward prospect shelf rather than any of Yandle, OEL or Gormley. And if they stay in Glendale, next year will have plenty of money and a successful year to attract new forwards to upgrade Langkow and Pyatt.
I understand they're re-signing but my point is the prospect cupboard is bare and even if they hit with their late first this year on some forward it'll likely take awhile to find out if that player is a legit NHL talent/replacement for when Whitney and Doan start declining. No argument, they're great right now, but you're playing a high risk game by just assuming it'll go on indefinitely, especially with Whitney being 40 already.

There are plenty of options besides the Blues as trading partners but they're so deep on defense and so shallow on offense. This is the rationale behind the offer. For us, Schwartz is McDonald's heir apparent in terms of elite hockey sense/playmaking from the left wing. Trading him creates a hole, whereas offering Rattie+ is a competitive offer with whatever else Phoenix might get. Rattie's an elite sniper who crushed the regular season and postseason in juniors. It would hurt to trade him but it's purely a balance of organizational needs for the Blues.

Obviously the Coyotes could eventually trade Klesla or someone else like Summers/Schlemko but that won't get you the high end offensive prospects to restock for a smooth transition when Doan and Whitney decline.

I think what I'm hearing from Coyotes fans is he's about a 80% likelihood to increase in value when he hits the NHL, so they aren't ready to sell until he's at his highest point. But that might not be as high as 80% if he doesn't get enough ice time to prove his value. If he's stuck in the AHL all next year, well, the year after OEL, Yandle and Klesla are still under contract.

We's also offer Stewart for Gormley straight up I think.

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Old
05-15-2012, 06:33 PM
  #25
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i dont see why either team doesn't do this.

using prospects where you are overloaded to refill positions you are weak at is the whole point to trading. i would imagine these teams are fairly strong trading partners.

its true that phx would like to see how gromley does before trading him but we would like to see how schwartz does in a whole season as well. i would hate to trade tarasenko, schwartz, rattie or mcrae before we get a taste of what they can do but we have to fill needs. tarasenko is the one that most blues fans would agree that is untouchable so that leaves schwartz or rattie.

in my opinion no team loses on this deal. it may not happen but it is one of the reasonable HF trades that you will see as it fills needs on both sides, fair value, and isn't lots of trash for a star.

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