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Big Joe to Leafs

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Old
05-15-2012, 04:43 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Joe is also from Ontario and he's shown willingness to put the team over his pay check, so I don't think the Leafs would have a huge problem re-signing him.
The thing is how much is left in the tank when his contract is over, he'll be 35 years old at that point and would have it been worth to give up 5th overall ++ for him? Personally I just don't see it, if Burke moves a package like that it will be for a young player like Staal or someone in prime with a lot more years left in the tank like Getzlaf.

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05-15-2012, 04:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
The thing is how much is left in the tank when his contract is over, he'll be 35 years old at that point and would have it been worth to give up 5th overall ++ for him? Personally I just don't see it, if Burke moves a package like that it will be for a young player like Staal or someone in prime with a lot more years left in the tank like Getzlaf.
Joe wants to be playing for 10 more years, and frankly, I see that as a real possibility. He has all the tools to be the next Selanne.

And Joe is still hungry, unlike Getzlaf, who seems to not really give a crap after winning the Cup and who is more of a flight risk than Thornton, and Staal, who is more concerned with his own role on his team than being part of an organization that is a threat to win a Cup every single year and will be for a long time.

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05-15-2012, 06:54 PM
  #53
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If we're talking Joe to the Leafs, it has to be something along the lines of the #5, Gunnarsson, and Kadri to start.

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05-15-2012, 09:19 PM
  #54
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if SJ is moving Joe he decides where he goes. He has a full NTC. That severly limits the return he'd get depending on which teams or even how many teams he chooses to be traded too. Any trade with Joe leaving SJ has to be mutual. He wont get the #5 oa but something around Kadri + Kule + 2nd 2012 would be more in line with the return SJ would receive.

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05-15-2012, 09:23 PM
  #55
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5th overall, Joe Colbourne and 2013 2nd for:
20th overall, Joe Thornton

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05-15-2012, 09:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
5th overall, Joe Colbourne and 2013 2nd for:
20th overall, Joe Thornton


I think it would be a mistake to trade Jumbo, but if it were to happen, 5th overall and Schenn would be a starting point.

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05-15-2012, 09:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LeafsYoungGuns View Post
if SJ is moving Joe he decides where he goes. He has a full NTC. That severly limits the return he'd get depending on which teams or even how many teams he chooses to be traded too. Any trade with Joe leaving SJ has to be mutual. He wont get the #5 oa but something around Kadri + Kule + 2nd 2012 would be more in line with the return SJ would receive.
Even with a limited amount of teams, if a team like Toronto wants Thornton, they're not going to get him for scraps. But if he was available at the draft, the #5 is the starting point and there's no way around that. You can't sit there and say no other team would make a big push to drive up the price and that Burke wouldn't get involved and put that piece in play. Thornton is a player that Burke would love to get his hands on.

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05-15-2012, 09:38 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post


I think it would be a mistake to trade Jumbo, but if it were to happen, 5th overall and Schenn would be a starting point.
I'd way rather have Colbourne and a 2nd than Schenn.

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05-15-2012, 09:43 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
5th overall, Joe Colbourne and 2013 2nd for:
20th overall, Joe Thornton

would definitely pull the trigger on this but highly doubt SJ does..

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05-15-2012, 09:55 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
5th overall, Joe Colbourne and 2013 2nd for:
20th overall, Joe Thornton
Yeah, nope. We downgrade for Thornton to Colborne and a 2nd to move up 12 spots in the draft? (We pick 17th)

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05-15-2012, 09:57 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, nope. We downgrade for Thornton to Colborne and a 2nd to move up 12 spots in the draft? (We pick 17th)
Trading Thornton allows younger guys to get more minutes and responsibilities.

And moving up 12 spots in the draft has an astronomical price AND a 2nd rounder in 2013 has pretty good value as well.

My bad on the 20th vs. 17th. Still a huge jump to 5th though. Huge.

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05-15-2012, 09:59 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Trading Thornton allows younger guys to get more minutes and responsibilities.

And moving up 12 spots in the draft has an astronomical price AND a 2nd rounder in 2013 has pretty good value as well.

My bad on the 20th vs. 17th. Still a huge jump to 5th though. Huge.
The jump is big, but the downgrade from an established top-10 two-way center in the league that loves this team and this area in addition to being our captain to a prospect that may become a good top-6 forward is an even bigger jump.

No worries on the pick number mistake, I don't have the draft order memorized either.

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05-15-2012, 10:02 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
The jump is big, but the downgrade from an established top-10 two-way center in the league that loves this team and this area in addition to being our captain to a prospect that may become a good top-6 forward is an even bigger jump.

No worries on the pick number mistake, I don't have the draft order memorized either.
Joe Thornton is at this point a borderline top 10 center in the league and in the next couple of years there are many guys who could surpass him.

The days of teams giving up huge returns for guys 30+ is a thing of the past I think.

Getting a 5th overall pick is massive.

Any Thornton trade (I presume) would be followed by a Boyle trade, it would be an acknowledgment from the Sharks that they want to rebuild and go with a younger team moving forward.

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05-15-2012, 10:11 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Joe Thornton is at this point a borderline top 10 center in the league and in the next couple of years there are many guys who could surpass him.

The days of teams giving up huge returns for guys 30+ is a thing of the past I think.

Getting a 5th overall pick is massive.

Any Thornton trade (I presume) would be followed by a Boyle trade, it would be an acknowledgment from the Sharks that they want to rebuild and go with a younger team moving forward.
I'm not at all against trading Thornton and Boyle. It's not like they're untouchable. But the org has to be certain about what they think this team is capable of. Personally, I'd like to start a major youth movement right now; I think we have the pieces to do a rebuild on the fly without a full tank if management wants to go in that direction. Between Thornton, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, and maybe Niemi, I think we could get a decent amount of youth. But if we're going to do that, we have to make the move this summer. It's going to be interesting.

But you are slightly overrating the 5th overall pick. Ryan Strome, Nino Neiderreiter, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Karl Alzner, those are nice pieces. But they aren't the pure star talent that Thornton is.

As for Thornton, why won't people (not you specifically) understand that Joe is not going to have some massive decline. He's going to be effective for years. He'll be a #1C for at least 5 years more. And a top-6 center for the rest of this career.

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05-15-2012, 10:23 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Happy watching Joe wallow in despair while he finishes his days as a Shark.
Funny you're talking trash about a guy choking in the playoffs when your piece of ******* team hasn't even made the playoffs 7 years in a row. You're like a guy on welfare making fun of a guy who has a job because the guy isn't a CEO. Have your fun, but when you're done you're still the pathetic loser lol.

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05-15-2012, 10:27 PM
  #66
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Don't you Leafers already have a Big Joe...Colborne?


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05-15-2012, 10:30 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Joe Thornton is at this point a borderline top 10 center in the league and in the next couple of years there are many guys who could surpass him.

The days of teams giving up huge returns for guys 30+ is a thing of the past I think.

Getting a 5th overall pick is massive.

Any Thornton trade (I presume) would be followed by a Boyle trade, it would be an acknowledgment from the Sharks that they want to rebuild and go with a younger team moving forward.
The reality is that the Sharks are a team that will put off rebuilding as much as possible. If you want to get Joe Thornton, you have to offer a sweetheart deal to move one of their best players and offer pieces that will help the team now. None of the pieces offered do that.

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05-15-2012, 10:31 PM
  #68
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The reality is that the Sharks are a team that will put off rebuilding as much as possible. If you want to get Joe Thornton, you have to offer a sweetheart deal to move one of their best players and offer pieces that will help the team now. None of the pieces offered do that.
I don't think that's really the case. A high pick like that could only be a year away. And Kadri and Colborne are both NHL-ready.

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05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #69
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I don't think that's really the case. A high pick like that could only be a year away. And Kadri and Colborne are both NHL-ready.
A pick at #5 is not going to step in the next season in all likelihood. Only two have done it since the lockout, being Luke Schenn and Phil Kessel. And before that, the last one to do it was Tim Connolly in 1999.

And I'm not sold on Kadri and Colborne being NHL ready. Kadri has yet to show any sort of consistency in his chances at the NHL level. He's done well in two years with the Marlies but every time he's been called up for the Leafs, he's not done well at all. Colborne is a maybe but he hasn't seen enough time with the Leafs to know yet.

However, the chances that all three would be ready to contribute next season is slim to none. The Sharks aren't going to be trading for futures with Thornton and that's what the #5, Colborne, and Kadri are.

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05-15-2012, 11:01 PM
  #70
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A pick at #5 is not going to step in the next season in all likelihood. Only two have done it since the lockout, being Luke Schenn and Phil Kessel. And before that, the last one to do it was Tim Connolly in 1999.

And I'm not sold on Kadri and Colborne being NHL ready. Kadri has yet to show any sort of consistency in his chances at the NHL level. He's done well in two years with the Marlies but every time he's been called up for the Leafs, he's not done well at all. Colborne is a maybe but he hasn't seen enough time with the Leafs to know yet.

However, the chances that all three would be ready to contribute next season is slim to none. The Sharks aren't going to be trading for futures with Thornton and that's what the #5, Colborne, and Kadri are.
I said one year away, not immediately.

To me, NHL-ready means having had successful time in the AHL and a few trips up to the big show, regardless of success. I think Kadri should be playing in the NHL next season.

And I guess we just disagree on the plan of this team. You're right, I do have trouble seeing management go for a big youth movement, but personally I think that's what needs to happen.

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05-15-2012, 11:17 PM
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I said one year away, not immediately.

To me, NHL-ready means having had successful time in the AHL and a few trips up to the big show, regardless of success. I think Kadri should be playing in the NHL next season.

And I guess we just disagree on the plan of this team. You're right, I do have trouble seeing management go for a big youth movement, but personally I think that's what needs to happen.
The Sharks aren't going to sacrifice next season, we both know that. The only way they deal for futures, even if it is just one year away, is by trading excess/replaceable players.

Thornton isn't that kind of guy. I don't think the team needs a big youth movement but they need to start thinking about getting value for certain guys and finding ways to get depth, speed, and youth throughout their lineup.

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05-15-2012, 11:19 PM
  #72
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The Sharks aren't going to sacrifice next season, we both know that. The only way they deal for futures, even if it is just one year away, is by trading excess/replaceable players.

Thornton isn't that kind of guy. I don't think the team needs a big youth movement but they need to start thinking about getting value for certain guys and finding ways to get depth, speed, and youth throughout their lineup.
I know, I know. We're in such a stupid spot though. I agonize about what this team is going to do, and frankly, I don't see next season ending well.

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05-15-2012, 11:19 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm not at all against trading Thornton and Boyle. It's not like they're untouchable. But the org has to be certain about what they think this team is capable of. Personally, I'd like to start a major youth movement right now; I think we have the pieces to do a rebuild on the fly without a full tank if management wants to go in that direction. Between Thornton, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, and maybe Niemi, I think we could get a decent amount of youth. But if we're going to do that, we have to make the move this summer. It's going to be interesting.

But you are slightly overrating the 5th overall pick. Ryan Strome, Nino Neiderreiter, Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn, Karl Alzner, those are nice pieces. But they aren't the pure star talent that Thornton is.

As for Thornton, why won't people (not you specifically) understand that Joe is not going to have some massive decline. He's going to be effective for years. He'll be a #1C for at least 5 years more. And a top-6 center for the rest of this career.
I agree about Joe, I don't think he's going to have any big drop off anytime soon. He's still an older guy though, I don't see them getting "equal" value back. Those 5 guys you listed are all pretty solid players, STrome and Neiderr are still very early in thier careers but could definitely be top 6 guys. I think the key is to get assets back and hope they turn into something substantial. Thornton's value to San Jose and as a player is far higher than what his trade value would be I think.

It will be interesting to see what San Jose does in the next year or so, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to try again with more or less the same core but I also don't think it'd be a bad idea to start a youth movement. One of many teams with a very intriguing offseason coming up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I know, I know. We're in such a stupid spot though. I agonize about what this team is going to do, and frankly, I don't see next season ending well.
I wouldn't worry about it too much man, a guy like Thornton, if they decide to move him would still have relatively close to the same value next offseason as he does this year. In fact maybe even moreso because of some of the CBA uncertainty this Summer.

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05-15-2012, 11:20 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I know, I know. We're in such a stupid spot though. I agonize about what this team is going to do, and frankly, I don't see next season ending well.
Well, it's tough to see it when they haven't done anything yet and this season ended so badly. lol

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05-16-2012, 12:17 AM
  #75
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I agree about Joe, I don't think he's going to have any big drop off anytime soon. He's still an older guy though, I don't see them getting "equal" value back. Those 5 guys you listed are all pretty solid players, STrome and Neiderr are still very early in thier careers but could definitely be top 6 guys. I think the key is to get assets back and hope they turn into something substantial. Thornton's value to San Jose and as a player is far higher than what his trade value would be I think.

It will be interesting to see what San Jose does in the next year or so, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to try again with more or less the same core but I also don't think it'd be a bad idea to start a youth movement. One of many teams with a very intriguing offseason coming up.




I wouldn't worry about it too much man, a guy like Thornton, if they decide to move him would still have relatively close to the same value next offseason as he does this year. In fact maybe even moreso because of some of the CBA uncertainty this Summer.
The problem is that strictly objectively, moving Joe would probably be a good idea. But emotionally, I just can't do it. The guy does everything. He helps out the community, he's a true team player, he takes responsibility, he just wants to play and to win. I'm attached to him. I want to see him retire a Shark. But I'd rather see him win a Cup, wherever that my be.

And yes, those players picked at #5 are certainly great complimentary players, but not one fifth overall has been a star since Kessel. And I don't see Strome or Nino being that good either.

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