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Cory Schneider

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:17 PM
  #26
Hi-wayman
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The most likely team Schneider will be playing for next season will be Columbus, not Vancouver. The Blue Jackets have the ability to offer quality assets and picks without harming the team while at the same time not only improving their team at goal, but actually obtaining a franchise level goalie they can build a team around well before that goalie even begins to enter his prime years.

It will cost the CBJ's to force Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo, but they are one team that can afford to overpay in order to target a key player they want.

Next season CBJ will start (1) solid in goal for years to come, (2) with another franchise level player they pick this year at 2nd overall and (3) either keeping Nash or getting far more assets then they give up to acquire Schneider. I can't see the Blue Jackets not becoming a perenial playoff team and even a cup contender.

To get Schneider, as I say it's going to require overpaying, but the Blue Jackets will be a better team in the long run for it.

To Columbus:
Cory Schneider, heads above any other available goalie and of an age that fits CBJ to build the team around.

To Vancouver: (asks for a roster ready player, a top prospect & a draft pick)
a young playmaking/scoring player they can use with Kesler now: Ryan Johansen.
a solid prospect RD the Canucks can groom to play with Edler: Cody Goloubef.
Columbus' own 2012 second round pick (#31)

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05-15-2012, 10:22 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
The most likely team Schneider will be playing for next season will be Columbus, not Vancouver. The Blue Jackets have the ability to offer quality assets and picks without harming the team while at the same time not only improving their team at goal, but actually obtaining a franchise level goalie they can build a team around well before that goalie even begins to enter his prime years.

It will cost the CBJ's to force Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo, but they are one team that can afford to overpay in order to target a key player they want.

Next season CBJ will start (1) solid in goal for years to come, (2) with another franchise level player they pick this year at 2nd overall and (3) either keeping Nash or getting far more assets then they give up to acquire Schneider. I can't see the Blue Jackets not becoming a perenial playoff team and even a cup contender.

To get Schneider, as I say it's going to require overpaying, but the Blue Jackets will be a better team in the long run for it.

To Columbus:
Cory Schneider, heads above any other available goalie and of an age that fits CBJ to build the team around.

To Vancouver: (asks for a roster ready player, a top prospect & a draft pick)
a young playmaking/scoring player they can use with Kesler now: Ryan Johansen.
a solid prospect RD the Canucks can groom to play with Edler: Cody Goloubef.
Columbus' own 2012 second round pick (#31)
I hope

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:33 PM
  #28
IdealisticSniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
The most likely team Schneider will be playing for next season will be Columbus, not Vancouver. The Blue Jackets have the ability to offer quality assets and picks without harming the team while at the same time not only improving their team at goal, but actually obtaining a franchise level goalie they can build a team around well before that goalie even begins to enter his prime years.

It will cost the CBJ's to force Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo, but they are one team that can afford to overpay in order to target a key player they want.

Next season CBJ will start (1) solid in goal for years to come, (2) with another franchise level player they pick this year at 2nd overall and (3) either keeping Nash or getting far more assets then they give up to acquire Schneider. I can't see the Blue Jackets not becoming a perenial playoff team and even a cup contender.

To get Schneider, as I say it's going to require overpaying, but the Blue Jackets will be a better team in the long run for it.

To Columbus:
Cory Schneider, heads above any other available goalie and of an age that fits CBJ to build the team around.

To Vancouver: (asks for a roster ready player, a top prospect & a draft pick)
a young playmaking/scoring player they can use with Kesler now: Ryan Johansen.
a solid prospect RD the Canucks can groom to play with Edler: Cody Goloubef.
Columbus' own 2012 second round pick (#31)
Thats all it would take?

TB would offer Connolly+Detroit 1st+pick a dman not named Hedman or Barberio. Which I would think is at least on par with the above if not slightly better. And it would put Schneider out of the conference.

For ME, thats a lot to pay for a goalie who has 70 games experience, but his value has definitely gone up recently. And I do agree with you that I dont think hes with the Canucks next season.

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Old
05-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
Don't knock Patrick White!, He netted us Erhoff for 2 years

The Canucks have repeatedly shown a lack of patience to develop their 1st rounders. Cory Schneider being the exception, which is why most Canuck fans are saying "OMG SAVIOR!"

Case in point the last 12 years

2000 - Nathan Smith - left Vancouver for Pittsburgh after doing nothing but getting injured for the Canucks.

2001 - R.J. Umberger - Canucks couldn't get a deal done, he sat out for a year, and then got traded for Martin Ruchinsky for like.. 17 games.

2002 - No first round pick

2003 - Ryan Kesler - 2nd line center

2004 - Cory Schneider - Starting Goalie (Projected)

2005 - Luc Bourdon - Died (RIP)

2006 - Michael Grabner - Traded for Keith Ballard, #5 Defenseman

2007 - Patrick White - Traded for Christan Erhoff, no longer with team

2008 - Cody Hodgson - Traded for Zack Kassian, 4th liner (Scratch)

2009 - Jordan Schroeder - Has not made the team yet

2010 - No 1st round pick

2011 - Nicklas Jensen - Has not made the team yet

2012 - Unknown.

So.. in the past 11 drafts, we end up with.. a 2nd line center, a projected starting goalie, a #5 defenseman, and a 4th liner.

That's pretty bad...

This thread is about the proposed return for that projected starting goalie. So.. if you remove him from the last 11 drafts... then it's even more depressing. If we trade Schneider, I'd rather get proven prospects with NHL experience rather than picks. Vancouver does not know how to draft. They got lucky with the twins and that's pretty much it
You seem to like to spin a lot of things in their most negative possible light, to strengthen your argument.

A little disingenuous to say that they lack patience in developing their first rounders, and then use the fact their two most recent first rounders are still in the AHL/Juniors as an example of their poor drafting record.

Obvious other flaws include listing a recent high first round pick in his rookie year as a 4th liner/scratch. That may be what he's been in his short time here so far, but makes no allowance for what he is likely to become.

I also think it's unwise not to separate the draft/development records of the Burke/Nonis and Gillis regimes when making such statements. Both facets seem to have improved under Gillis. I'm not saying he's been flawless, but it's far easier to defend Gillis' admittedly smaller body of work in these areas than that of Burke/Nonis.

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Old
05-15-2012, 11:13 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Thats all it would take?

TB would offer Connolly+Detroit 1st+pick a dman not named Hedman or Barberio. Which I would think is at least on par with the above if not slightly better. And it would put Schneider out of the conference.

For ME, thats a lot to pay for a goalie who has 70 games experience, but his value has definitely gone up recently. And I do agree with you that I dont think hes with the Canucks next season.
From a Canucks point of view, your TB offer for Schneider is less than my suggested CBJ offer. Though Connolly would be of interest, the Canucks would value Johansen more (he can play top six centre, a possition due to ther trading of Hodgson the Canucks are thin at). Equally Goloubef, being a solid RD prospect would interest the Canucks more than any TB defense prospect other then Hedman. The 19th overall pick is obviously better then the 31st overall pick, but to the Canucks, the draft picks would interest the Canucks the least of a roster player, a prospect and a pick.

What you offered likely would be enough to spark interest in the Canucks for Luongo (TB might still need to add a bit more), but definatley would not sway Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo.

GM's seldom trade just to get equal value. GM's target specific players at a specific position the club needs to improve at. If so called trade values aren't equal so what. Getting that player improves the team, unless the trade creates a bigger hole in the lineup somewhere else. Burke's Kessel trade was a great example of this. Gillis also targetted Kassian when he likely could have gotten better trade value with another club for Hodgson. What Gillis wanted was what Kassian can bring to the table ( & to the Canucks) that no other available player could bring. Kassian fills a Canuck team need which has now been solved.

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Old
05-15-2012, 11:14 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Thats all it would take?

TB would offer Connolly+Detroit 1st+pick a dman not named Hedman or Barberio. Which I would think is at least on par with the above if not slightly better. And it would put Schneider out of the conference.

For ME, thats a lot to pay for a goalie who has 70 games experience, but his value has definitely gone up recently. And I do agree with you that I dont think hes with the Canucks next season.
Maybe it's just me but Ryan Johansen >>> Brett Connolly.

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05-16-2012, 06:09 AM
  #32
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What is his value to Vancouver? Not necessarily in targeted trade assets as much as next contract(s). I assume Vancouvers best case scenario is Schneider re-signs regardless of whether they're able to move Luongo or not. What rate and term does he get?


If an offer sheet in the upper reaches of 1st, 2nd, 3rd compensation for 4+ years is signed would Gillis match it and force himself into taking lesser value in a then much more necessary Luongo deal? What if it was in the 3 1sts range? I believe Schneider's true value lies between the above ranges and any trade would reflect as much.

I'm not saying I think Schneider will sign, much less receive, an offer sheet. Its much more likely they keep both short term or move Luongo and re-sign Cory long-term. That said, I do think the idea of Schneiders worth versus value to the Canucks in keeping him is important to any discussion of trading him, especially as pertains potential returns.

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05-16-2012, 06:10 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneids View Post
Maybe it's just me but Ryan Johansen >>> Brett Connolly.
Big time.

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05-16-2012, 09:24 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
And it would put Schneider out of the conference.
I had to laugh at that statement, its Columbus, are they even in a conference? I dont think to many teams are worried about that.

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Old
05-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
The most likely team Schneider will be playing for next season will be Columbus, not Vancouver. The Blue Jackets have the ability to offer quality assets and picks without harming the team while at the same time not only improving their team at goal, but actually obtaining a franchise level goalie they can build a team around well before that goalie even begins to enter his prime years.

It will cost the CBJ's to force Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo, but they are one team that can afford to overpay in order to target a key player they want.

Next season CBJ will start (1) solid in goal for years to come, (2) with another franchise level player they pick this year at 2nd overall and (3) either keeping Nash or getting far more assets then they give up to acquire Schneider. I can't see the Blue Jackets not becoming a perenial playoff team and even a cup contender.

To get Schneider, as I say it's going to require overpaying, but the Blue Jackets will be a better team in the long run for it.

To Columbus:
Cory Schneider, heads above any other available goalie and of an age that fits CBJ to build the team around.

To Vancouver: (asks for a roster ready player, a top prospect & a draft pick)
a young playmaking/scoring player they can use with Kesler now: Ryan Johansen.
a solid prospect RD the Canucks can groom to play with Edler: Cody Goloubef.
Columbus' own 2012 second round pick (#31)
Johansen
Goloubef
#31 pick

I'm not sure how I feel about trading Schneider, but if this were offered, I'd consider it. I'd still rather trade Luongo to Toronto if we could get Kadri, Schenn, and their 2nd. To me, the difference between Schneider and Luongo is greater than the difference between those two offers.

I have a feeling Columbus won't pony up the assets to acquire Schneider though. They don't have a legit #1C: those can almost only be obtained via the draft and are much harder to find. I think they'll keep Johansen over Nash to be perfectly honest with you, they obviously think this kid is their future franchise #1C.

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Old
05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Schneids View Post
Maybe it's just me but Ryan Johansen >>> Brett Connolly.
Are you serious? Johansen might be better but not by that much. It was their first full season, and neither lit the league up. Also with Sedin and Kesler down the middle Connolly fits more a need on the wing.

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05-16-2012, 06:56 PM
  #37
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Are you serious? Johansen might be better but not by that much. It was their first full season, and neither lit the league up. Also with Sedin and Kesler down the middle Connolly fits more a need on the wing.
Connolly is more of a scoring winger, whereas Johansson is more of a playmaker. Which is where Vancouver lacks.
Johansson is also accustomed to playing wing as well.
Size is a huge factor here too, Connolly is quite a bit smaller.

If Kesler can teach Johansson the defensive game and to take a draw, putting Kesler on the wing is more appealing since it would suit Kesler's game better

Not to mention Tampa doesn't have a Right Dman to trade, and Vancouver could just as easily replace Cory with the 31st pick by taking Subban or Vasilivski and allow them to develop

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05-16-2012, 07:25 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
Connolly is more of a scoring winger, whereas Johansson is more of a playmaker. Which is where Vancouver lacks.
Johansson is also accustomed to playing wing as well.
Size is a huge factor here too,

If Kesler can teach Johansson the defensive game and to take a draw, putting Kesler on the wing is more appealing since it would suit Kesler's game better

Not to mention Tampa doesn't have a Right Dman to trade, and Vancouver could just as easily replace Cory with the 31st pick by taking Subban or Vasilivski and allow them to develop
Connolly would be the perfect winger for Kesler, and Kesler is really good defensively and at faceoffs so I don't think he's better at wing. Johansen isn't as good at wing as he is at center. He'd be another Hodgson. If the Canucks can acquire someone like Parentau, then i think Connolly + Det 1st + any dman(Aulie) would be great for the Canucks. Connolly is also bigger than Johansen


Last edited by LeX4cavalier: 05-16-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 07:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I have a feeling Columbus won't pony up the assets to acquire Schneider though. They don't have a legit #1C: those can almost only be obtained via the draft and are much harder to find. I think they'll keep Johansen over Nash to be perfectly honest with you, they obviously think this kid is their future franchise #1C.
This, pretty much. Johansen straight up for Schneider would be a difficult sell. Johansen plus other assets is... that'd get ugly. We have zero desire to trade him at all - the only reason there's a stated price quote to Edmonton is because they can't take "no" for an answer.

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05-16-2012, 07:32 PM
  #40
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05-16-2012, 07:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
Connolly is more of a scoring winger, whereas Johansson is more of a playmaker. Which is where Vancouver lacks.
Johansson is also accustomed to playing wing as well.
Size is a huge factor here too, Connolly is quite a bit smaller.

If Kesler can teach Johansson the defensive game and to take a draw, putting Kesler on the wing is more appealing since it would suit Kesler's game better

Not to mention Tampa doesn't have a Right Dman to trade, and Vancouver could just as easily replace Cory with the 31st pick by taking Subban or Vasilivski and allow them to develop
It seemed like scoring was one of your biggest problems in the playoffs. LeXavlier answered your size debate, you also wouldn't have to move Kesler from his natural position. We could send you Gudas who's a physical stay at home RHD. You can also draft a RHD at 19 or on of the goalies if you'd prefer. I think our offer is better, IMO.

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05-16-2012, 08:43 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Johansen
Goloubef
#31 pick

I'm not sure how I feel about trading Schneider, but if this were offered, I'd consider it. I'd still rather trade Luongo to Toronto if we could get Kadri, Schenn, and their 2nd. To me, the difference between Schneider and Luongo is greater than the difference between those two offers.

I have a feeling Columbus won't pony up the assets to acquire Schneider though. They don't have a legit #1C: those can almost only be obtained via the draft and are much harder to find. I think they'll keep Johansen over Nash to be perfectly honest with you, they obviously think this kid is their future franchise #1C.
I appreciate your comments, but I think you are looking at the individual and that individual's skills or potential skills rather than the player as a part to make up the whole team. In truth Luongo or Schneider assures the Canucks will have an elite goal tender next season.

There is no doubt Luongo is an elite goal tender. His goal tending record to date almost assures he will be a Hall of Famer. The suggestion that his career is about to end soon is garbage. Luongo shows no sign of slowing down. He just help the team win the Presidents trophy two years in a row. I see no reason he won't be a solid #1 goalie well beyond the term of his current contract. Being an elite or franchise goalie does not mean he will be the best every year or even top 5. It means year after year that goalie will be good enough to be so consistant in goal that goal tending will not not be a problem to the team he plays for.

Schneider an elite, if not the most elite, goal tending prospect in the league. Note I still call him a prospect. Much of his value is based on preceived potential but based on how his career has gone so far, he has a very likely to reach most or all of that potential. Definately a solid goalie for a team looking for a goalie to build their franchise around.

As I said, the Canucks end up with an elite goalie no matter who stays, but let's look at the makeup of the team. It is not Luongo verses Schneider as who is best for the team. It is Luongo, Lack and the Canucks defense verses Schneider, Lack and the Canucks defense.

Schneider, being younger, will likely have a longer remaining career than Luongo. Ten to twelve years for Schneider compared to six to nine years for Luongo. Most of the Canuck defense plays equally well with either goalie, but Schneider would do better with a younger defense that would develop at the same rate as Schneider. The Canucks present defense was acquired to support Luongo and his style of play. Schneider is just developing as a number one goalie. He needs to continue to develop his style and dominance as the team's top goalie. The development of Lack would likely suffer under Schneider where as Luongo has proven to be a good mentor to Schneider and no reason he wouldn't be to Lack as well.

Columbus has a number of good players, but no identity. Few teans develop consistantly to make the playoffs that do not develop from the goal out. One year wonder goalies can be found that give fans false hopes, but true franchise level goalies who bring consitant goal tending year after year are very rare and even more rare to be available via trade. It's much easier to obtain a franchise level defensemen (even easier to obtain a franchise level forward) either by trade or by the draft. It takes much longer to develop goalies then defensemen and longer to develop defensemen than forwards plus the ratio per team of goalies to defensemen to forwards gives teams much better odds acquiring and developing top level forwards compared to goalies capable of being a NHL starting goalie.

Johansen, like Nash will not help Columbus get out of the NHL celler until Columbus rebuilds its core. High scoring forwards on teams like Columbus, Toronto or Edmonton may make games exciting for fans, but until those teams acquire the players who stop the puck, those teams will continue to score but sitll lose the game. Even the Oilers during the Gretzky era didn't become a dynasty until Fuhr developed into the elite goalie he became. At least the Leafs have a head start in the defensemen group, but that won't be enough unless they come up with a better goalie system then what they have now. By the way, for what the Canuck needs are, Franson is a better choice than Schenn.

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05-16-2012, 09:03 PM
  #43
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From a Canucks point of view, your TB offer for Schneider is less than my suggested CBJ offer. Though Connolly would be of interest, the Canucks would value Johansen more (he can play top six centre, a possition due to ther trading of Hodgson the Canucks are thin at). Equally Goloubef, being a solid RD prospect would interest the Canucks more than any TB defense prospect other then Hedman. The 19th overall pick is obviously better then the 31st overall pick, but to the Canucks, the draft picks would interest the Canucks the least of a roster player, a prospect and a pick.

What you offered likely would be enough to spark interest in the Canucks for Luongo (TB might still need to add a bit more), but definatley would not sway Gillis to trade Schneider rather than Luongo.

GM's seldom trade just to get equal value. GM's target specific players at a specific position the club needs to improve at. If so called trade values aren't equal so what. Getting that player improves the team, unless the trade creates a bigger hole in the lineup somewhere else. Burke's Kessel trade was a great example of this. Gillis also targetted Kassian when he likely could have gotten better trade value with another club for Hodgson. What Gillis wanted was what Kassian can bring to the table ( & to the Canucks) that no other available player could bring. Kassian fills a Canuck team need which has now been solved.
I think the TB offer is better suited to be a better offer for the Canucks. But LOL at you thinking that that would be an offer for Luongo and not only that but that TB would have to add more. Ummm no.

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05-16-2012, 09:09 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by HoseEmDown View Post
It seemed like scoring was one of your biggest problems in the playoffs. LeXavlier answered your size debate, you also wouldn't have to move Kesler from his natural position. We could send you Gudas who's a physical stay at home RHD. You can also draft a RHD at 19 or on of the goalies if you'd prefer. I think our offer is better, IMO.
So Connolly isn't a shooter?

TSN has Johansen, (finally know how to spell the kids name) at 6'3 203 lbs
Where Brett is 6'2 188 lbs.

Now I'm not gonna squabble over an inch, but the extra 20 lbs is nothing to scoff at either.
That's like the difference between Nuge and Hall for weight difference.

My real problem is that there is absolutely no history of Connolly being a playmaking winger in his career. Where Johansen does have a history of being a playmaker.

I know the Canucks couldn't score in the playoffs, but a major problem with that was the fact the 2nd line didn't have a designated playmaker or passer.
Kesler is a shooter, he can play the all around game but has begun to believe he's Alex Ovechkin with his shot and 1 dangle move.
Booth is a north south drive to the net winger who scores from 2-10 feet I front of the net.

Connolly being another shooter just doesn't make sense for that line, even if he some how replaced Burrows on the top line, again Burrows is the pure playmaker we need

I see the problem with the 2nd line as not one player has the confidence to walk the puck into the offensive zone and make a play. Everyone just goes straight for the net n hopes there's a rebound.

I think Thomas and Quick proved this theory to be unsuccessful since the system their team played was perfect for them. No rebounds off perimater shots means no second chances, basically eliminating Booth from the equation completely.

Making the 2nd line Kesler and Kesler's 1 dangle to the middle and soft shot into the gut

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05-16-2012, 09:19 PM
  #45
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Someone will trade for Luongo despite his contract. Vancouver is not going to get much in return for him because of his contract.

Schneider is going nowhere.

Luongo will get traded to Toronto, Tampa, Columbus, or maybe even Florida or NYI lol.

Edmonton should go after him. But he will be gone for sure.

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05-16-2012, 10:31 PM
  #46
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Schnieder, Schroder 1st for Pat Kane
Kane with access to the Roxy about 250 nights a year? Man would the press get some good shots!

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05-16-2012, 10:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pucks View Post
Kane with access to the Roxy about 250 nights a year? Man would the press get some good shots!
He'd have to live at the Roxy, cabbies would refuse to drive him over 10 cents

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05-17-2012, 01:09 AM
  #48
stryfe604
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
He'd have to live at the Roxy, cabbies would refuse to drive him over 10 cents
Oh that is a low blow. But funniest joke seen on hfboards in awhile. Kudos to you sir.

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05-17-2012, 01:28 AM
  #49
Cogburn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by June 2007 View Post
Schnieder, Schroder 1st for Pat Kane
It was a second, and we got Lalonde and a center (I said Morrison...relax, so he can retire a Canuck) when I last posted.

Let's keep it there

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05-17-2012, 03:48 AM
  #50
Johnsie19
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The canucks are lacking a true goalscorer not a playmaker.

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