HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-15-2012, 11:53 PM
  #176
Giroux 4 MVP
Girøux #28
 
Giroux 4 MVP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 308
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Here's some man to man for you! LOL

http://video.flyers.nhl.com/videocen...PHI564&lang=en
So I'm guessing you're the one baiting user on this site.....ok then

Giroux 4 MVP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 01:14 AM
  #177
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 32,497
vCash: 50
if people at BSH really want to compare Carle to Lidstrom and Chara who should we compare Timonen to? Ray Bourque? Bobby Orr?
Matt Carle is not worth 5 million. He may get it from someone(hopefully not the Flyers) but he isnt worth it.

GoneFullHextall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 01:43 AM
  #178
DumpyD
Registered User
 
DumpyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
hahah i cant even beelvie you bothered to repost that first above statement..

Carle is easily one of the softest LEAST likely to make contact Dmen i've ever suffered throu watching on the flyers..

i swear to god the guy is afraid of human contact.. the only pressure he EVER applies in the corners (and you hardly ever even see that) is mostly stick work.. he simply is NOT a guy you can expect to see working the corners and forcing players to cough up pucks due to checks or agresive physical pressure.

soooooo many times during the season in GDT's all you read when Carle is in the corner (or avoiding if usualy) is people posting about how soft Carle is and a total lack of checking/using his body directly against the opposing player to stop/slow them...

but feel free to keep drinking that Carle kool-aid, matter not to me..im gunna enjoy reading the threads on teh day Carle is gone..

enjoy it immensely..
I still remember Carle making a couple nice passes to Boston players because of impending hits. Good times.


And yeah, linking to BSH is as bad to linking to hockeybuzz in my mind. Pure drivel.

DumpyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 08:50 AM
  #179
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,352
vCash: 50
You could still make the case Suter is better than Carle, but all Dustin Leed did was use stats to re-inforce the theory that Carle is not that far of a departure from Suter, if he even is at all. If Carle is willing to take $5M, and Suter is over $7M, the decision is quite simple to stay with Carle and make another move elsewhere, or wait for Weber.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 08:58 AM
  #180
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
You could still make the case Suter is better than Carle, but all Dustin Leed did was use stats to re-inforce the theory that Carle is not that far of a departure from Suter, if he even is at all. If Carle is willing to take $5M, and Suter is over $7M, the decision is quite simple to stay with Carle and make another move elsewhere, or wait for Weber.
I think Suter is better then Carle. And you last point is a good one. Is Suter worth the difference over Carle.

And if your looking for a true #1, Weber is a target. But who knows if he'll even be available.

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 09:00 AM
  #181
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Asking for an article or blog to prove every single point is absurd.

Where is your wealth of articles and blogs that prove Carle's worth? Asking someone to show how much they know about hockey by blindly following what the media says doesn't make sense either. Anybody can parrot back quotes from writers. Analyzing them for their merit and thinking about them critically takes some understanding of the game though. Blindly accepting everything written at face value is useless.
Wow I forgot about that guy. Glad I don't have to see it.

I totally agree about blindly following the media. Whatever happened to people doing their OWN analysis? I much prefer to look up my own data, organize it into my own argument and present it.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 09:02 AM
  #182
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Can I just ask one question here, instead of using all these ****** corsi and fenwick stats, has anyone ever even watched Suter play in a game? I feel like all these arguments are being based off of just stats alone. Suter outplays Carle in every aspect of the game, I saw it about 30 times this year. I've seen the two players play a ton and can say just from watching, that Suter is a MUCH better hockey player then Carle. I don't even think Carle is a horrible defender, not a 5 millionish one though.
I tend to be somebody that likes to use advanced statistics to SUPPORT what I see with my own eyes.

I think it's silly to completely ignore advanced stats and call them meaningless. I also think it's silly to ignore what your eyes tell you.

That said, advanced statistics are measuring a very real, tangible outcome. Often times, they are things the average fan simply doesn't notice.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 09:04 AM
  #183
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
I still remember Carle making a couple nice passes to Boston players because of impending hits. Good times.


And yeah, linking to BSH is as bad to linking to hockeybuzz in my mind. Pure drivel.
Bill Meltzer is drivel?

Where do you suggest people look?

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 09:18 AM
  #184
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Wow I forgot about that guy. Glad I don't have to see it.

I totally agree about blindly following the media. Whatever happened to people doing their OWN analysis? I much prefer to look up my own data, organize it into my own argument and present it.
It's not about blindly following the media. That's just an excuse that the Carle detractors use to try and discredit all of the information out there that is overwhelmingly against the opinions of the Carle detractors. And the fact that none of them can provide any credible sources that support the opinions they have, is very telling.

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 10:52 AM
  #185
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort Sampson View Post
Shots blocked=/=good defense
Shots blocked=/=good positioning

Shots blocked = Shots blocked
I just wanted to point out that this is very true. Blocking a shot is not necessarily a sign of a good defensive play. We had Kukkonen on the team a few years ago, he blocked a lot of shots, but that was often because he was out of position to begin with (and he also took himself out of position again after flinging himself all over the ice).

I'm a big fan of Suter and really hope that we can land him in the summer. After that though (if we're not counting Lidström) the second best dman in this years UFA group could very well be Carle. I think it's a very significant drop between those two though. Suter is a top ten dman in the league imo, while Carle is not a top-pairing dman.

Now, I'll back out of this debate I believe. The Carle threads are almost as annoying as the Bryzgalov ones.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 11:16 AM
  #186
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
You could still make the case Suter is better than Carle, but all Dustin Leed did was use stats to re-inforce the theory that Carle is not that far of a departure from Suter, if he even is at all. If Carle is willing to take $5M, and Suter is over $7M, the decision is quite simple to stay with Carle and make another move elsewhere, or wait for Weber.
Yes it is, sign neither and try for Weber.

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 11:19 AM
  #187
Larry44
10 - 88
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I just wanted to point out that this is very true. Blocking a shot is not necessarily a sign of a good defensive play. We had Kukkonen on the team a few years ago, he blocked a lot of shots, but that was often because he was out of position to begin with (and he also took himself out of position again after flinging himself all over the ice).

I'm a big fan of Suter and really hope that we can land him in the summer. After that though (if we're not counting Lidström) the second best dman in this years UFA group could very well be Carle. I think it's a very significant drop between those two though. Suter is a top ten dman in the league imo, while Carle is not a top-pairing dman.

Now, I'll back out of this debate I believe. The Carle threads are almost as annoying as the Bryzgalov ones.
Wow, when the Rangers' D block shots, they are courageous warriors.

When Laperriere, Pronger, Kimmo, Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann, Lilja, Bourdon and Gustafsson do it, they are great, self-sacrificing players.

When Carle does it, it's because he's out of position?

As far Kukkonen goes, he was always a good Dman, and great at blocking shots. A true warrior. His problem really was that he didn't do anything on offense, and he's not really big enough to be a purely defensive D in the NHL because he could not clear the crease. He's a great AHL or Euro Dman, always liked his spirit, he's just not an NHL calibre defender.

Let's start facing reality a bit. If Suter goes UFA, there are lots of other teams with cap room and money who will be able to offer him more than the Flyers. Detroit is the prime example, but probably 10 teams will get in on the bidding. For the Flyers to outbid all the potential suitors for Suter, we're going to have to create some other big holes in the lineup to create cap space, unless Timonen or Briere retires.... and how likely is that?

Sign Carle for $5M or under for 4-5 years, give up the futile quest for Suter.

Larry44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 11:32 AM
  #188
mirimon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Wrong Town
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Wow, when the Rangers' D block shots, they are courageous warriors.

When Laperriere, Pronger, Kimmo, Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann, Lilja, Bourdon and Gustafsson do it, they are great, self-sacrificing players.

When Carle does it, it's because he's out of position?

As far Kukkonen goes, he was always a good Dman, and great at blocking shots. A true warrior. His problem really was that he didn't do anything on offense, and he's not really big enough to be a purely defensive D in the NHL because he could not clear the crease. He's a great AHL or Euro Dman, always liked his spirit, he's just not an NHL calibre defender.

Let's start facing reality a bit. If Suter goes UFA, there are lots of other teams with cap room and money who will be able to offer him more than the Flyers. Detroit is the prime example, but probably 10 teams will get in on the bidding. For the Flyers to outbid all the potential suitors for Suter, we're going to have to create some other big holes in the lineup to create cap space, unless Timonen or Briere retires.... and how likely is that?

Sign Carle for $5M or under for 4-5 years, give up the futile quest for Suter.
No, I didn't say that about Carle. I quoted this

Quote:
Shots blocked=/=good defense
Shots blocked=/=good positioning

Shots blocked = Shots blocked
and stated that that is true and gave Kukkonen as an example of a dman who blocked a lot of shots, but still isn't very good as a (defensive) dman. Having had three coaches who stressed playing (team) d without having to force yourself to go down and block a shot, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Carle isn't a great dman defensively, he's not nearly as bad as some people around here make him out to be either, but that he blocks a fair amount of shots isn't really a sign of his play.

As for Suter, I wouldn't bet money on him being a Flyer next season but we definitely has the room for him if we're able to convince him that this is the place he should go to.

mirimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 11:51 AM
  #189
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I just wanted to point out that this is very true. Blocking a shot is not necessarily a sign of a good defensive play. We had Kukkonen on the team a few years ago, he blocked a lot of shots, but that was often because he was out of position to begin with (and he also took himself out of position again after flinging himself all over the ice).

I'm a big fan of Suter and really hope that we can land him in the summer. After that though (if we're not counting Lidström) the second best dman in this years UFA group could very well be Carle. I think it's a very significant drop between those two though. Suter is a top ten dman in the league imo, while Carle is not a top-pairing dman.

Now, I'll back out of this debate I believe. The Carle threads are almost as annoying as the Bryzgalov ones.
Think about this from a simple logic point of view. Kukonen blocked a lot of shots because he was often out of position. I like to see you make any sense out of that. Kukonen had a lot of physical shortcomings, but he was sound positionally and knew when to be where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Wow, when the Rangers' D block shots, they are courageous warriors.

When Laperriere, Pronger, Kimmo, Coburn, Meszaros, Grossmann, Lilja, Bourdon and Gustafsson do it, they are great, self-sacrificing players.

When Carle does it, it's because he's out of position?

As far Kukkonen goes, he was always a good Dman, and great at blocking shots. A true warrior. His problem really was that he didn't do anything on offense, and he's not really big enough to be a purely defensive D in the NHL because he could not clear the crease. He's a great AHL or Euro Dman, always liked his spirit, he's just not an NHL calibre defender.

Let's start facing reality a bit. If Suter goes UFA, there are lots of other teams with cap room and money who will be able to offer him more than the Flyers. Detroit is the prime example, but probably 10 teams will get in on the bidding. For the Flyers to outbid all the potential suitors for Suter, we're going to have to create some other big holes in the lineup to create cap space, unless Timonen or Briere retires.... and how likely is that?

Sign Carle for $5M or under for 4-5 years, give up the futile quest for Suter.
That's the way it is around here for the Carle detractors. He's terrible well just because he is. He's not worth 5M just because he isn't. Your analysis of Kukonen is correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
No, I didn't say that about Carle. I quoted this



and stated that that is true and gave Kukkonen as an example of a dman who blocked a lot of shots, but still isn't very good as a (defensive) dman. Having had three coaches who stressed playing (team) d without having to force yourself to go down and block a shot, it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Carle isn't a great dman defensively, he's not nearly as bad as some people around here make him out to be either, but that he blocks a fair amount of shots isn't really a sign of his play.

As for Suter, I wouldn't bet money on him being a Flyer next season but we definitely has the room for him if we're able to convince him that this is the place he should go to.
First of all Carle doesn't block a fair amount of shots. He blocks a lot of shots. He led the team in blocks, and was I belevie 15th in the NHL for defenseman in blocked shots. And I'll explain something to you about blocked shots. When you block that many shots. It's because your in the right position, and make the correct read on where the puck is going and where the shot is coming from. And you put yourself in between the shooter and the net. Yes, blocked shots is absolutely a sign of his play, and that he's very solid in his own end.

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 12:43 PM
  #190
Larry44
10 - 88
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
No, I didn't say that about Carle. I quoted this

---

As for Suter, I wouldn't bet money on him being a Flyer next season but we definitely has the room for him if we're able to convince him that this is the place he should go to.
Sorry, didn't mean you, just didn't want to take Bort off ignore to reply.... mea culpa.

How do we have cap room for Suter? Only if we forego signing Jagr and Carle, and trade JVR? I can really see Suter getting $7.5M/yr from someone.

I'd rather sign Carle, then go after Weber with Kimmo's money after next year. But again, there will be 29 teams bidding on Weber, so it's still a longshot.

Larry44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:13 PM
  #191
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,352
vCash: 50
Just wondering, for the people who won't even take Carle at $5M, do you realize how much defensemen cost in this league? The market is always tilted in their favor. If you're not spending money there, you're not going anywhere. Suter is going to get $7M because there is no one else out there. There's rumors that perhaps Carle isn't even asking for $5M, Holmgren has stated he thinks he can get him below market value. If we're talking 7/$34M there is nothing to think about, that's an easy deal to make. And if they decide otherwise, it wouldn't be an untradeable contract. That's called managing an asset.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:18 PM
  #192
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Just wondering, for the people who won't even take Carle at $5M, do you realize how much defensemen cost in this league? The market is always tilted in their favor. If you're not spending money there, you're not going anywhere. Suter is going to get $7M because there is no one else out there. There's rumors that perhaps Carle isn't even asking for $5M, Holmgren has stated he thinks he can get him below market value. If we're talking 7/$34M there is nothing to think about, that's an easy deal to make. And if they decide otherwise, it wouldn't be an untradeable contract. That's called managing an asset.
Think there are only 2 left in the playoffs ? We already have Kimmo at 6 and 2 others at 4 plus, Carle at 5 on our team is a failure of epic proportions.

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:22 PM
  #193
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,352
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Think there are only 2 left in the playoffs ? We already have Kimmo at 6 and 2 others at 4 plus, Carle at 5 on our team is a failure of epic proportions.
Kimmo is at 6 for one more year, assuming he stays, his next number will be lower. Pronger goes on LTIR. This team will never be comfortable with their goaltender, so pay up. This is more than manageable by simply making Jody Shelley disappear.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:23 PM
  #194
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Think there are only 2 left in the playoffs ? We already have Kimmo at 6 and 2 others at 4 plus, Carle at 5 on our team is a failure of epic proportions.

Why would the team be a failure of epic proportions with Carle signed to a 5M deal?

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:28 PM
  #195
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Why would the team be a failure of epic proportions with Carle signed to a 5M deal?
Cause it would be essentially the same core as this year which was a mess. If we are spending 5 mill, we need a tougher more physical defensive D man or a guy with better than an atom kids point shot.

23 million on this current top 5 would be a waste of cap space.

Carle, 5 plus years at 5 mill or more will be a Leino esque contract, hope to hell it aint us giving it.

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #196
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Think there are only 2 left in the playoffs ? We already have Kimmo at 6 and 2 others at 4 plus, Carle at 5 on our team is a failure of epic proportions.
If Coburn makes $4.5M, Carle is easily worth $5M. The price for top 4 defenseman is getting steeper and Carle is the 2nd best defenseman available.

The Flyers would be fools to let Carle go IMO. Pronger is done while Timonen is old and breaking down. You let Carle go and your painfully thin on the puckmovers. Ideally they need to sign Carle and Suter to prepare for a life after Timonen. They can't count on him to be their #1.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #197
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Kimmo is at 6 for one more year, assuming he stays, his next number will be lower. Pronger goes on LTIR. This team will never be comfortable with their goaltender, so pay up. This is more than manageable by simply making Jody Shelley disappear.
I don't care if it is manageable, Carle isn't a very good D man. I want to wait until next year when Kimmo's hit drops and take a hard run at Weber, sure as **** don't want Carle on the books at 5 mill per

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:33 PM
  #198
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,352
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
23 million on this current top 5 would be a waste of cap space.
A third of your cap spent on your Top 5 defensemen?


Sounds....actually it sounds like what's supposed to happen.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:35 PM
  #199
bennysflyers16
Registered User
 
bennysflyers16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 18,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
If Coburn makes $4.5M, Carle is easily worth $5M. The price for top 4 defenseman is getting steeper and Carle is the 2nd best defenseman available.

The Flyers would be fools to let Carle go IMO. Pronger is done while Timonen is old and breaking down. You let Carle go and your painfully thin on the puckmovers. Ideally they need to sign Carle and Suter to prepare for a life after Timonen. They can't count on him to be their #1.
So just cause he is the 2nd best of a sub par UFA crop, we should throw 5 mill at him ??
If July 2nd and Matty franchise is available, maybe look at keeping him, but signing him pre July 1st will be a huge mistake.

bennysflyers16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-16-2012, 05:37 PM
  #200
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,352
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
I don't care if it is manageable, Carle isn't a very good D man. I want to wait until next year when Kimmo's hit drops and take a hard run at Weber, sure as **** don't want Carle on the books at 5 mill per
So then what happens when Weber signs a long-term contract? Your master plan is already up in smoke. In fact, you might need Carle to be on a contract so you can possibly trade him.


Letting Carle walk, in hopes Weber is a UFA next year seems futile. You're banking on a lot of things out of your control.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.