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Old
05-15-2012, 06:52 PM
  #26
vipernsx
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It's going to be hard to find someone with a solid top4 blueliner who's young and they're willing to part with. Typically someone like that is going to cost you top dollar, where you'll need to overpay to get the team to give up the player.

IMO, Andrej Sekera for a 1st rounder and someone like Jonas Junland fits the bill.

Buffalo still has a solid top4, even solid top6 with Pysysk, McNabb, and Weber vying for the final two spots. Their blueline depth is restocked with Junland as a long term project and a 3rd first rounder in this draft can never hurt.

Sekera is good all round, LHD, 25 y/o signed long term, and is plenty capable of playing more than just 19 minutes a game.

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05-15-2012, 07:05 PM
  #27
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It's going to be hard to find someone with a solid top4 blueliner who's young and they're willing to part with. Typically someone like that is going to cost you top dollar, where you'll need to overpay to get the team to give up the player.

IMO, Andrej Sekera for a 1st rounder and someone like Jonas Junland fits the bill.

Buffalo still has a solid top4, even solid top6 with Pysysk, McNabb, and Weber vying for the final two spots. Their blueline depth is restocked with Junland as a long term project and a 3rd first rounder in this draft can never hurt.

Sekera is good all round, LHD, 25 y/o signed long term, and is plenty capable of playing more than just 19 minutes a game.
I'd jump all over that personally, even more then this trade here. Honestly, if that was the offer, I take it now and walk away, though my fellow fans may disagree with me.

I think the big problem with this proposal, looking through it, is it's just to even to get a concrete "yes" on either side. If both sides have a hard time agreeing to a trade even though the value is about even, and both team gets a need, is that their fanbase is hoping for a deal that tilts more their side then being a straight up push.

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05-15-2012, 07:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
It's going to be hard to find someone with a solid top4 blueliner who's young and they're willing to part with. Typically someone like that is going to cost you top dollar, where you'll need to overpay to get the team to give up the player.

IMO, Andrej Sekera for a 1st rounder and someone like Jonas Junland fits the bill.

Buffalo still has a solid top4, even solid top6 with Pysysk, McNabb, and Weber vying for the final two spots. Their blueline depth is restocked with Junland as a long term project and a 3rd first rounder in this draft can never hurt.

Sekera is good all round, LHD, 25 y/o signed long term, and is plenty capable of playing more than just 19 minutes a game.
Junland's a throwaway for the Blues, but the only way a first round pick is being traded for a defenseman is if it's part of a larger package to get a top-caliber two-way LHD, which Sekera isn't. Otherwise they can re-sign Jackman or promote Cole to the 2d pairing without giving up assets. So this deal is an automatic no.

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05-15-2012, 07:37 PM
  #29
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This is a trade that was talked about in the Blues forum, and I thought it was interesting and balanced enough to get the opinions of others.

Coyotes get:
Jaden Schwartz

Blues get:
Brandon Gormley

It's kinda like when the Blues traded Rundblad to get Tarasenko, in it's 2 players of just about equal value. Schwartz looks to be a potential 1st line and a very solid bet to be a 2nd line winger. Gormley looks to be a potential first pairing defensemen, and a very solid bet at the 2nd pair. Both are young, talented, and in a position of depth on their teams, but would help fill a gap on the other.
Schwartz is a future stud, Gormley is a depth defensmen at the very most, prospect for prospect trades just never pan out for both teams

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05-15-2012, 08:26 PM
  #30
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McDonald to Sobotka is a fair bit of a downgrade on offense.
...
But the Blues wouldn't plug Sobotka into McDonald's spot on the top line. They would likely put Perron there, Steen would move to the second line, and Sobotka could play on the third line. Though Sobotka is likely to play center on the third line in my opinion, but a third line left winger isn't that hard to find in free-agency.

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05-15-2012, 09:07 PM
  #31
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Schwartz is a future stud, Gormley is a depth defensmen at the very most, prospect for prospect trades just never pan out for both teams
Haha, what?

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05-15-2012, 09:43 PM
  #32
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Haha, what?
on the Yotes he's a top pair because of your guys' defensive game plan, but put him on a team with bigger names offensively on the back end then he's depth.

that being said, I hope the Yotes take out these former Flyer bums from LA

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05-15-2012, 09:46 PM
  #33
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on the Yotes he's a top pair because of your guys' defensive game plan, but put him on a team with bigger names offensively on the back end then he's depth.

that being said, I hope the Yotes take out these former Flyer bums from LA
Gormley is still in juniors...

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05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #34
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05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #35
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As a Blues fan, I would do this. Pretty fair trade overall, two players with high ceilings but who are still developing. Im not as attached to Schwartz as some Blues fans, hes very talented but his limited time with the Blues showed me he could still probably use a season in the minors. Gormley is similar, an accomplished junior career but needs minor-pro experience.

Fair value but unlikely to happen, trades like this usually dont occur.

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05-16-2012, 01:02 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Duncanmac81 View Post
on the Yotes he's a top pair because of your guys' defensive game plan, but put him on a team with bigger names offensively on the back end then he's depth.

that being said, I hope the Yotes take out these former Flyer bums from LA
I would almost view it the other way.

Because of Yandle and OEL, Gormley is depth for the Coyotes, whereas he could help out in most team's top four.

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05-16-2012, 01:31 AM
  #37
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Maybe, but then we done what we done this season with Jackman and Colaiacovo. Sign Garrison and let Cole play and I don't think there is a significant dropoff there. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it stronger.

But we lack offensive production, and considering our centers aren't playmakers, a potential downgrade from McDonald to Sobotka would be much more significant.



I agree with Novacain here, not sure what you mean. Are OEL, Yandle and Klesla not your set LHD? In order to accodate Gormley then you are going to have no choice but to trade someone or move someone to the right side like what has happened with Schlemko.

If I was the Coyotes, if Gormley proved himself worth an NHL spot before the start of next season, I'd probably consider trading Yandle first. Premium return.
My point is there is absolutley no rush. Gormley will spend the year in the AHL. Maybe Rundblad too. Summers and Stone can fight for an NHL spot. Murphy will be in the ohl.

We can talk about a log jam when there's a log jam. That's next summer at the earliest, but also quite likely that its never a problem.

A lot can happen in a year. God forbid somebody has a terrible injury or somebody demands a trade. Who the hell knows? There is no reason to do a deal now. We don't have too many NHL defensemen and we have PLENTY of room in the system for blue line blue chips.

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05-16-2012, 04:40 AM
  #38
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My point is there is absolutley no rush. Gormley will spend the year in the AHL. Maybe Rundblad too. Summers and Stone can fight for an NHL spot. Murphy will be in the ohl.

We can talk about a log jam when there's a log jam. That's next summer at the earliest, but also quite likely that its never a problem.

A lot can happen in a year. God forbid somebody has a terrible injury or somebody demands a trade. Who the hell knows? There is no reason to do a deal now. We don't have too many NHL defensemen and we have PLENTY of room in the system for blue line blue chips.
The point some of us are making is that Gormley is clearly NHL ready. He's in the AHL because there's no room on the NHL roster, not because he isn't ready to break in. You guys can survive multiple catastrophic defensive injuries but not a single serious offensive injury. That's the imbalance point. Sure, you can absolutely put Gormley in the minors and Rundblad back in the minors and keep letting that go on as a layered luxury. I'm not sure you want to spend the next bunch of years continually bearing the inefficiency of breaking new guys in with NHL training. Sure, you can train Summers and Stone and Schlemko in their first few seasons as they make mistakes and learn the ropes, only to have to do it all over again when you finally get around to breaking in Gormley and Rundblad. No matter how much time they play in the AHL, the NHL is played at a different speed and have far better, quicker players they'll have to defend. Do the Coyotes really just want to be the job training center for D prospects breaking in, at the expense of staying very thin up front?

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05-16-2012, 04:54 AM
  #39
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My point is there is absolutley no rush. Gormley will spend the year in the AHL. Maybe Rundblad too. Summers and Stone can fight for an NHL spot. Murphy will be in the ohl.

We can talk about a log jam when there's a log jam. That's next summer at the earliest, but also quite likely that its never a problem.

A lot can happen in a year. God forbid somebody has a terrible injury or somebody demands a trade. Who the hell knows? There is no reason to do a deal now. We don't have too many NHL defensemen and we have PLENTY of room in the system for blue line blue chips.
I agree with this assessment and add that Oliver didn't step right in his 1st year. If the Coyotes were to move a d'man, I would expect Summers or Schlemko be the ones that might be moved and not a prospect that is unproven at being able to take the rigors of a full year. Maybe next season or at least after the All-Star break before any consideration about making 20yo Gormley an everyday NHL player and opening a roster spot.

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05-16-2012, 05:06 AM
  #40
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I agree with this assessment and add that Oliver didn't step right in his 1st year. If the Coyotes were to move a d'man, I would expect Summers or Schlemko be the ones that might be moved and not a prospect that is unproven at being able to take the rigors of a full year. Maybe next season or at least after the All-Star break before any consideration about making 20yo Gormley an everyday NHL player and opening a roster spot.
And what will you do when Rundblad decides he doesn't want to play in the AHL and would rather eat fat checks in the KHL then sit around and wait? You completely lose a major asset with a lot of value. You might be able to pull this of with Gormley (who wouldn't have many other cards to play), but keeping Rundblad down will not go well for you.

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05-16-2012, 05:23 AM
  #41
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And what will you do when Rundblad decides he doesn't want to play in the AHL and would rather eat fat checks in the KHL then sit around and wait? You completely lose a major asset with a lot of value. You might be able to pull this of with Gormley (who wouldn't have many other cards to play), but keeping Rundblad down will not go well for you.
I expect him to try to get Rozsival's spot in the rotation... And I'm not too sure if Aucoin will re-sign or retire...

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05-16-2012, 08:51 AM
  #42
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I understand they're re-signing but my point is the prospect cupboard is bare and even if they hit with their late first this year on some forward it'll likely take awhile to find out if that player is a legit NHL talent/replacement for when Whitney and Doan start declining. No argument, they're great right now, but you're playing a high risk game by just assuming it'll go on indefinitely, especially with Whitney being 40 already.

There are plenty of options besides the Blues as trading partners but they're so deep on defense and so shallow on offense. This is the rationale behind the offer. For us, Schwartz is McDonald's heir apparent in terms of elite hockey sense/playmaking from the left wing. Trading him creates a hole, whereas offering Rattie+ is a competitive offer with whatever else Phoenix might get. Rattie's an elite sniper who crushed the regular season and postseason in juniors. It would hurt to trade him but it's purely a balance of organizational needs for the Blues.
I certainly understand the rationale and it's not that I don't think the offer is good. It's simply that there have been a rash of offers that seem to think the Yotes MUST or that it would FOOLISH not to move defenseman this offseason. Practically none of the Yotes fans see it this way and most of the offers have been pretty underwhelming.

But I think you're exaggerating the barrenness of the Yotes forward prospect cupboard. Chris Brown and Lucas Lessio are both 2nd round pick power forwards that are on track. Maloney has also worked hard at signing coveted undrafted players. Andy Miele had a very good first pro year after winning the Hobey Baker last year and is very much in the mold of Ray Whitney and will probably convert to wing next year. They just signed Brendan Shinnimin too. That's not to say that any of these guys look like they'll have the impact that Schwartz or Rattie will, but just to point out that we're not as forward-prospect-poor as you're making us out to be.

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Obviously the Coyotes could eventually trade Klesla or someone else like Summers/Schlemko but that won't get you the high end offensive prospects to restock for a smooth transition when Doan and Whitney decline.
I've offered Klesla for NYI Josh Bailey and EDM Magnus Paajarvi and some of those teams' fans accepted, and I think those are reasonable players that could develop more and have an impact w/o touching OEL, Yandle or Gormley. If the Yotes really feel they've got to move a LHD to open up ice time and "re-stock" the cupboards, I'd move Klesla, because he's had some injury history, we acquired him for nothing and his value is at its peak.

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05-16-2012, 09:08 AM
  #43
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The point some of us are making is that Gormley is clearly NHL ready. He's in the AHL because there's no room on the NHL roster, not because he isn't ready to break in. You guys can survive multiple catastrophic defensive injuries but not a single serious offensive injury. That's the imbalance point.
I don't think that's true and I think Maloney/Tippett prefer to have a few guys who are 24, 25, 26 that have been up and down in the NHL but haven't really stuck and are hungry to prove their worth as callup protection rather than young guys. The last few seasons they've kept or brought in guys like Nokeleinan, Chipchura, Pouliot, POS, COR and Brule, rather than calling up guys like Maclean or Tikhonov or other of their draft picks, probably because Tippett feels more comfortable with them. I imagine Chipchura and Brule will be on the NHL roster next year, but I also imagine they'll go out and sign a few more guys like that on two-way contracts for protection.

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Sure, you can absolutely put Gormley in the minors and Rundblad back in the minors and keep letting that go on as a layered luxury. I'm not sure you want to spend the next bunch of years continually bearing the inefficiency of breaking new guys in with NHL training. Sure, you can train Summers and Stone and Schlemko in their first few seasons as they make mistakes and learn the ropes, only to have to do it all over again when you finally get around to breaking in Gormley and Rundblad. No matter how much time they play in the AHL, the NHL is played at a different speed and have far better, quicker players they'll have to defend. Do the Coyotes really just want to be the job training center for D prospects breaking in, at the expense of staying very thin up front?
I actually think this is the plan a la Nashville. Nashville has been pumping out good defensemen from a small market (and goalies with numbers that look better than they are due to the quality defensive system). If they had been willing to trade some of those guys off at the right time, they might have had more success, it's true. What if they had traded Hamhuis with a year left on his deal? Or at the trade deadline? It's not a bad little cottage industry within the league to get started in, particularly when 1A defensemen are so highly valued.

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05-16-2012, 09:24 AM
  #44
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I certainly understand the rationale and it's not that I don't think the offer is good. It's simply that there have been a rash of offers that seem to think the Yotes MUST or that it would FOOLISH not to move defenseman this offseason. Practically none of the Yotes fans see it this way and most of the offers have been pretty underwhelming.

But I think you're exaggerating the barrenness of the Yotes forward prospect cupboard. Chris Brown and Lucas Lessio are both 2nd round pick power forwards that are on track. Maloney has also worked hard at signing coveted undrafted players. Andy Miele had a very good first pro year after winning the Hobey Baker last year and is very much in the mold of Ray Whitney and will probably convert to wing next year. They just signed Brendan Shinnimin too. That's not to say that any of these guys look like they'll have the impact that Schwartz or Rattie will, but just to point out that we're not as forward-prospect-poor as you're making us out to be.



I've offered Klesla for NYI Josh Bailey and EDM Magnus Paajarvi and some of those teams' fans accepted, and I think those are reasonable players that could develop more and have an impact w/o touching OEL, Yandle or Gormley. If the Yotes really feel they've got to move a LHD to open up ice time and "re-stock" the cupboards, I'd move Klesla, because he's had some injury history, we acquired him for nothing and his value is at its peak.
While I agree that Peonix would be better holding off on trading Gromley..as much as I would like to have him, the forward prospects you mention leave a lot to be desired. At some point that will have to be addressed.

If Pheonix is smart they will trade off Klesla before Gormely.

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05-16-2012, 09:38 AM
  #45
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Gormley was supposed to be a top-7-10 pick, shwartz was supposed to be a 25-30 pick, I don't see how either has changed much since

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05-16-2012, 09:53 AM
  #46
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Gormley was supposed to be a top-7-10 pick, shwartz was supposed to be a 25-30 pick, I don't see how either has changed much since

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05-16-2012, 10:41 AM
  #47
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Gormley was supposed to be a top-7-10 pick, shwartz was supposed to be a 25-30 pick, I don't see how either has changed much since
would you like to explain further??

its not even like you are saying that tarasenko was supposed to be a 2-5 pick.

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05-16-2012, 11:01 AM
  #48
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Gormley was supposed to be a top-7-10 pick, shwartz was supposed to be a 25-30 pick, I don't see how either has changed much since
So Schwartz hasen't done anything to improve his stock?

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05-16-2012, 11:07 AM
  #49
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The point some of us are making is that Gormley is clearly NHL ready. He's in the AHL because there's no room on the NHL roster, not because he isn't ready to break in. You guys can survive multiple catastrophic defensive injuries but not a single serious offensive injury. That's the imbalance point. Sure, you can absolutely put Gormley in the minors and Rundblad back in the minors and keep letting that go on as a layered luxury. I'm not sure you want to spend the next bunch of years continually bearing the inefficiency of breaking new guys in with NHL training. Sure, you can train Summers and Stone and Schlemko in their first few seasons as they make mistakes and learn the ropes, only to have to do it all over again when you finally get around to breaking in Gormley and Rundblad. No matter how much time they play in the AHL, the NHL is played at a different speed and have far better, quicker players they'll have to defend. Do the Coyotes really just want to be the job training center for D prospects breaking in, at the expense of staying very thin up front?
Clearly NHL ready? He's yet to play an NHL game. You are all just was too over eager and lacking in patience. The coyotes have retarded the development of too many top prospects to have not learned some lessons in patience. If Gormley steals a spot in camp because he's without question ready to be a top four, then we will deal with it then, when it makes sense to deal with it. Trading him now because he might be too good too soon is idiotic.

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05-16-2012, 11:21 AM
  #50
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Gormley was supposed to be a top-7-10 pick, shwartz was supposed to be a 25-30 pick, I don't see how either has changed much since
I totally understand PHX fans prefering Gormley. But that is just ignorance. I know this website is not the end all and not always agreed upon rankings. But they have Schwartz as the #8 drafted prospect and Gromley as the #17 rated prospect so obviously they think something has changed. Players develope after thier draft year. Draft position really gets over rated

Also the fact is Gormley was drafted #13 and Schwartz was drafted #14. Both have played and developed since being drafted and a lot of "experts" now rank Schwartz as a better prospect even though it is really close. Currently both prospects are really close either side has a pretty good argument on who they would prefer.

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