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Old
05-15-2012, 10:17 PM
  #101
CobraAcesS
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Originally Posted by BrickAHL View Post
Stastny will be fine and we are fine paying him that money because we know he is capable of putting up a PPG.

The Avs would be better with Bourque but he also has a big cap hit at 3.33 million so it wouldn't be helpful adding Bourque because we already have a lot of wingers like him. So instead we need to get a star winger and no more depth wingers.
Yes we need guys like Parise, Semin, / Nash, Ryan, E. Kane.. Which we can go after in free-agency. Or if we wanted to trade one of our centers it would not be impossible to obtain one of the guys with contracts.

Not..

Bourque

Where did this come from anyways? Are you trying to cap dump him on us? lol

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05-15-2012, 10:18 PM
  #102
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McGinn can actually stick handle in traffic really well btw and has a sick underrated wrist shot while being a power forward and extremely fast. He put up 13 points in 17 games after being paired with Stastny. Looking at his past seasons shooting percentages and how many shots he has (55 in 17 GP) after being traded. I am guessing that is exactly why management targeted him.

He has the speed, size and hands to turn into a top 6 power forward and he proved it after he was given a play-maker and more ice time.

I won't pretend to have watched Eller if you don't make assumptions about the wingers we already have.

I will admit the poster who made those comments about Eller is showing his ass. But don't do the same thing.
My post(s) wasn't a knock on McGinn specifically, and I do admit not having caught many of his games, and most of those were as a Shark anyway where he didn't really stand out for me. Preferring Eller to him doesn't mean I'm knocking him though, and I think it's entirely valid to do so since he isn't more proven and had slightly more opportunities to prove his worth at the NHL level so far. And I don't think I'm "doing the same thing" here because I haven't dissected McGinn's fancied flaws in an uninformed post.

What he did in less than 20 games as an Avs is definitely worth of note though, and contrasts with the somewhat limited production he's displayed so far. Sometimes I feel Eller would have more opportunities to play with top-6 linemates if he could be as effective on the wing, which he isn't. Hopefully he'll have the opportunity to get more offensive responsibilities next year. On a finishing note, McGinn is someone I would definitely take on the Habs, but not at the expense of Eller.

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05-15-2012, 10:26 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
My post(s) wasn't a knock on McGinn specifically, and I do admit not having caught many of his games, and most of those were as a Shark anyway where he didn't really stand out for me. Preferring Eller to him doesn't mean I'm knocking him though, and I think it's entirely valid to do so since he isn't more proven and had slightly more opportunities to prove his worth at the NHL level so far. And I don't think I'm "doing the same thing" here because I haven't dissected McGinn's fancied flaws in an uninformed post.

What he did in less than 20 games as an Avs is definitely worth of note though, and contrasts with the somewhat limited production he's displayed so far. Sometimes I feel Eller would have more opportunities to play with top-6 linemates if he could be as effective on the wing, which he isn't. Hopefully he'll have the opportunity to get more offensive responsibilities next year. On a finishing note, McGinn is someone I would definitely take on the Habs, but not at the expense of Eller.
There were three differences from McGinn in SJ vs McGinn in Colorado. He got almost 5 minutes more per game in ice time most nights. He was put with Stastny instead of with 3rd line grinders and he was told to shoot more. He has always had a high shooting percentage but never put up anything close to 55 shots in 17 games played.

I wouldn't trade McGinn for ANYTHING right now after seeing what he did when given a consistent opportunity with top 6 talent. Eller does not have the size that McGinn boasts and fast power forwards are very valuable assets.

SJ will look back at that trade and cringe every single time even if McGinn only comes close to what he did after the trade. He paced at 39 goals over 82 games. I would be happy with anything over 20 next year when combined with all of his other tools.

So to each his own

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Look at Mueller's best year. Look at Pacioretty's best year. Even when healthy, Pacioretty is better than Mueller. More goals, same number of assists, more points, more physical, and better defensively. Where am I wrong?

Mueller is a talented player. I have no issue with that. However, Pacioretty has shown consistent improvement, year-after-year INCLUDING in his injury depleted year. Mueller can not say the same. Even in his second year he dropped significantly in goals, assists, and total points while only playing 9 less games. In 2009-2010, Mueller got more points for the Avs in 15 games than he got for them in 32 games last season! Mueller has done nothing to put himself in Pacioretty's class at this time.

I am not sticking up for Pacioretty because he is a Habs player, I am pointing out that Mueller is not as good as Pacioretty based on the different levels of success they have had as demonstrated by what they have done on the ice.
If you have no issues with Mueller being a talented player, why did you take offense to my post. I merely pointed out that Mueller is as talented as Pacioretty, I never said he was a better player because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove that yet.

Mueller had one of the worst concussions of the past decade, it completely derailed his breakout season. But it's ludicrous to say Mueller is not as talented as Patches, he easily has the offensive potential to outproduce Pacioretty. If you watched him last season you'd be able to recognize that it wasn't his hockey game which was lacking, it was his conditioning due to the fact he was forbidden from working out for nearly 2 years.

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
There were three differences from McGinn in SJ vs McGinn in Colorado. He got almost 5 minutes more per game in ice time most nights. He was put with Stastny instead of with 3rd line grinders and he was told to shoot more. He has always had a high shooting percentage but never put up anything close to 55 shots in 17 games played.

I wouldn't trade McGinn for ANYTHING right now after seeing what he did when given a consistent opportunity with top 6 talent. Eller does not have the size that McGinn boasts and fast power forwards are very valuable assets.

SJ will look back at that trade and cringe every single time even if McGinn only comes close to what he did after the trade. He paced at 39 goals over 82 games. I would be happy with anything over 20 next year when combined with all of his other tools.

So to each his own
All this sounds fine, but you are aware that Eller is basically the same size and also uses is, right?

But other than that, I agree, to each his own.

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:45 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
If you have no issues with Mueller being a talented player, why did you take offense to my post. I merely pointed out that Mueller is as talented as Pacioretty, I never said he was a better player because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove that yet.

Mueller had one of the worst concussions of the past decade, it completely derailed his breakout season. But it's ludicrous to say Mueller is not as talented as Patches, he easily has the offensive potential to outproduce Pacioretty. If you watched him last season you'd be able to recognize that it wasn't his hockey game which was lacking, it was his conditioning due to the fact he was forbidden from working out for nearly 2 years.
Again, Mueller IS talented. To say he is AS TALENTED as Pacioretty is not something that has been demonstrated at the NHL level. Yes, Mueller is still young and could become better than Pacioretty. However, at this time, Pacioretty has proven to be better on the ice. Mueller's breakout season was as good as Pacioretty's, and Pcioretty has steadily improved his on-ice production every single year. Mueller has not. Yes, there is an injury reason, but that does not mean youget to claim Mueller is as talented as Pacioretty when Mueller's best season falls short of Pacioretty's.

I am not being a homer, or trying to insult Mueller, a player I like and hope the best for. He just is not at Pacioretty's level, yet. It could happen, but it has not. It is that simple. Sorry if that upsets people, no offence meant, it is just a demonstrable fact.

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:56 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
All this sounds fine, but you are aware that Eller is basically the same size and also uses is, right?

But other than that, I agree, to each his own.
McGinn has 12lbs on him and @ 23 that's quite the difference. It's hard to call a guy a power forward when hes under 200lbs.

I think I would probably trade for Eller if our scouts were able to confirm his ability at wing. But not for Stastny or any of our other centers.

I am not a big fan of Plekanec to be honest especially with him being 29 vs Stastny being 26. He really does not fit in with the youth movement.

It would be difficult to trade for Eller as well based on how high you seem to be on him.

How about Duchene + for Max Pac & Eller. What would the plus need to be?

If it was something like that then Eller would slot in as our 3rd center and Max would be put next to Stastny. You guys could draft Forsberg at that point instead of a center. Just a thought because that's about the only way I see one of our centers going to Montreal.


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Old
05-15-2012, 11:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
McGinn has 12lbs on him and @ 23 that's quite the difference. It's hard to call a guy a power forward when hes under 200lbs.

I think I would probably trade for Eller if our scouts were able to confirm his ability at wing. But not for Stastny or any of our other centers.

I am not a big fan of Plekanec to be honest especially with him being 29 vs Stastny being 26. He really does not fit in with the youth movement.

It would be difficult to trade for Eller as well based on how high you seem to be on him.

How about Duchene + for Max Pac & Eller. What would the plus need to be?

If it was something like that then Eller would slot in as our 3rd center and Max would be put next to Stastny. You guys could draft Forsberg at that point instead of a center. Just a thought because that's about the only way I see one of our centers going to Montreal.
Max Pac is the Habs 2nd most untouchable guy. Getting Duchene would be sweet, but not at the cost of him.

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Old
05-15-2012, 11:43 PM
  #109
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Max Pac is the Habs 2nd most untouchable guy. Getting Duchene would be sweet, but not at the cost of him.
I can totally understand that. Duchene is probably the Avs second most untouchable guy as well.

If your talking value + needs that's about the only thing that makes sense between the two teams. Stastny just costs more than any team would pay for him. Which is probably why he has not been traded.

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05-16-2012, 02:37 AM
  #110
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plekanec and stastny are about same in term of value. stastny a bit more since he's younger, though paid substantially more than pleks. though the difference between plekanec and stastny most certainly isn't eller

besides, in that hypothetical, if eller got traded along with plek, where's he gonna play? guy can't play wing, 4th line?

trade is seriously not worth doing for both sides and the only time i see so much ******** in a trade proposal thread is when it involves any blues players, or huberdeau.

Quote:
a healthy mueller is as talented as max
yes he is, but sadly, he isn't healthy. i'd draw a comparison to markov regarding talent vs. health but that'd just be throwing fuel on the fire and it's as OT as it gets


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05-16-2012, 03:02 AM
  #111
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plekanec and stastny are about same in term of value. stastny a bit more since he's younger, though paid substantially more than pleks. though the difference between plekanec and stastny most certainly isn't eller

besides, in that hypothetical, if eller got traded along with plek, where's he gonna play? guy can't play wing, 4th line?

trade is seriously not worth doing for both sides and the only time i see so much ******** in a trade proposal thread is when it involves any blues players, or huberdeau.



yes he is, but sadly, he isn't healthy. i'd draw a comparison to markov regarding talent vs. health but that'd just be throwing fuel on the fire and it's as OT as it gets
Mueller is completely healthy and was for the time he played last season except for a couple games at the beginning of the year. What he was lacking is physical stamina. The guy has not been able to work out consistently for almost 2 years. He was able to score on occasion but was for the most part a zombie skating around with a cannon (His shot) for most of his games. He was very good on the power-play because of that but 5 vs 5 was often behind the play.

He will be qualified at around 2.2M and given the next two seasons to really prove his value as he will finally have an entire off-season to train. He does have his confidence back and was able to take hits fine going down the stretch.

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Old
05-16-2012, 04:38 AM
  #112
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This just confirms what I thought. You've barely watched him. You could have said he's a bit lanky and awkward, lacks a bit of finish and that you don't see him putting his set of skills together to fulfill his upside, I would've had to acknowledge you actually do know him and are aware of his flaws, even though that would've been a pessimist assessment.

But saying he "plays undersized" and lacks "drive and skill": those are actually are some of his strengths! The guy can stickhandle in a phone booth, I strongly doubt McGinn and Jones can do that, and I most definitely know Downie can't! Eller also uses every bit of his size and strength to protect & cycle the puck. He's not the grittiest guy around, but he's a very determined and coachable workhorse.

All in all, just say you like your centre depth as is, I have no issue at all with that. But please keep your misinformed assessment based on probably less than a handful of games for yourself, or at the very least try to be honest about it.
I do think Elller plays undersized. For someone who is 6'2" and about 200lbs I think he should have more aggression in his game, it seems to me he doesn't take full advantage of his size. Also, I never said Eller lacks skill and drive, I said I think the group of McGinn, Downie, and Jones have a better combination of skill and drive. No one is going to think Downie is more skilled than Eller, however Downie is more aggressive and has a higher compete level than Eller. That is why I think he will be more successful than Eller throughout his career.

As I stated I have seen a few Habs games this season, and was being honest about it. What is clear is that you are the one that is misinformed. Judging by your assessments of Colorado's forwards I doubt you have even seen one Av's game this season, maybe even one game in the last few seasons.

If McClement is re-signed, Eller wouldn't crack the Av's roster as a center. As a winger I think Eller would be too far down the depth chart to have any significant value in a trade for the Avs. I'm just not interested in Eller in the least bit as an Avs fan.

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05-16-2012, 05:54 AM
  #113
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^ you really, really don't want eller playing wing. he is, for a lack of a better word, awful there. trust me

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05-16-2012, 07:51 AM
  #114
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^ you really, really don't want eller playing wing. he is, for a lack of a better word, awful there. trust me
I don't think we really know that yet. He's had stretches of utter invisibility and non-contributionness at center too. And also stretches of playing great and flashing upside. Just more stretches of everything at center. The bottom line is that his play thus far has depended so much on chemistry, utilization, it's not really possible to sit down with any small sample of games and say we know that's what Eller will do. Especially at wing. Overall, he looks good and seems to be progressing well, but the data is far from complete at wing. If we got another good center, I'd move Eller to wing before I'd move Desharnais or Plekanec, and before I'd shuffle him down to 4th line minutes, if we were down to experimenting again.

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05-16-2012, 08:32 AM
  #115
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I don't think we really know that yet. He's had stretches of utter invisibility and non-contributionness at center too. And also stretches of playing great and flashing upside. Just more stretches of everything at center. The bottom line is that his play thus far has depended so much on chemistry, utilization, it's not really possible to sit down with any small sample of games and say we know that's what Eller will do. Especially at wing. Overall, he looks good and seems to be progressing well, but the data is far from complete at wing. If we got another good center, I'd move Eller to wing before I'd move Desharnais or Plekanec, and before I'd shuffle him down to 4th line minutes, if we were down to experimenting again.
ill have to take your word for it. im not saying he can't get good at it, but the few games - and there weren't many - i've watched him play at wing he was terribad. if he had any good games there, i must have missed them

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05-16-2012, 09:29 AM
  #116
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I do think Elller plays undersized. For someone who is 6'2" and about 200lbs I think he should have more aggression in his game, it seems to me he doesn't take full advantage of his size. Also, I never said Eller lacks skill and drive, I said I think the group of McGinn, Downie, and Jones have a better combination of skill and drive. No one is going to think Downie is more skilled than Eller, however Downie is more aggressive and has a higher compete level than Eller. That is why I think he will be more successful than Eller throughout his career.

As I stated I have seen a few Habs games this season, and was being honest about it. What is clear is that you are the one that is misinformed. Judging by your assessments of Colorado's forwards I doubt you have even seen one Av's game this season, maybe even one game in the last few seasons.

If McClement is re-signed, Eller wouldn't crack the Av's roster as a center. As a winger I think Eller would be too far down the depth chart to have any significant value in a trade for the Avs. I'm just not interested in Eller in the least bit as an Avs fan.
Exactly what I said a few pages back, Eller wouldn't even crack the Avs' line up. Avs are certainly not downgrading Stastny for almost nothing coming back at all. With Duchene/Stastny/O'Reilly/McClement in the line up and Hishon and Sgarbossa coming up the system, I'm not sure he'd ever crack the Avs' line up.

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05-16-2012, 09:54 AM
  #117
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I do think Elller plays undersized. For someone who is 6'2" and about 200lbs I think he should have more aggression in his game, it seems to me he doesn't take full advantage of his size. Also, I never said Eller lacks skill and drive, I said I think the group of McGinn, Downie, and Jones have a better combination of skill and drive. No one is going to think Downie is more skilled than Eller, however Downie is more aggressive and has a higher compete level than Eller. That is why I think he will be more successful than Eller throughout his career.

As I stated I have seen a few Habs games this season, and was being honest about it. What is clear is that you are the one that is misinformed. Judging by your assessments of Colorado's forwards I doubt you have even seen one Av's game this season, maybe even one game in the last few seasons.

If McClement is re-signed, Eller wouldn't crack the Av's roster as a center. As a winger I think Eller would be too far down the depth chart to have any significant value in a trade for the Avs. I'm just not interested in Eller in the least bit as an Avs fan.
Dude/gal, even your fellow Avs fan ridiculed your post. You are misinformed about Eller, no big deal. Your attempt at a semantic recuperation only highlights it, it doesn't repair it.

And I am not putting down any Avs players here, I'm just defending Eller, who is part of the OP and received much undeserved heat from you guys. As I have stated many times, I don't mind personal preferences, as I have my own as well, just don't try to spew ridiculous misinformation. I don't care if you've watched him a 100 times, the more you've watched him, the more it highlights your lack of lack of talent evaluation abilities.

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05-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #118
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I don't think we really know that yet. He's had stretches of utter invisibility and non-contributionness at center too. And also stretches of playing great and flashing upside. Just more stretches of everything at center. The bottom line is that his play thus far has depended so much on chemistry, utilization, it's not really possible to sit down with any small sample of games and say we know that's what Eller will do. Especially at wing. Overall, he looks good and seems to be progressing well, but the data is far from complete at wing. If we got another good center, I'd move Eller to wing before I'd move Desharnais or Plekanec, and before I'd shuffle him down to 4th line minutes, if we were down to experimenting again.
I'm really not convinced about playing him at wing because, as decoy said, I haven't seen convincing results from him there albeit small sample size, I concede but most importantly, he provides size down the middle that is a luxury Habs can't afford to let go. And, as you say, the last thing he needs is to be downgraded on a 4th line since one of the main knocks on him so far is not being that good when surrounded by revolving-door 4th-line grinders. I'd really want to see him play with Leblanc and another skilled winger but I fear it won't happen because of Pleks' status on the team and the chemistry DD has with both Cole and Patches. To think we used to have too much 2-way skill blossoming on this team... sigh.

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05-16-2012, 10:08 AM
  #119
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Why isn't this closed yet ?

So much stupidity from both sides.

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05-16-2012, 10:56 AM
  #120
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I don't think we really know that yet. He's had stretches of utter invisibility and non-contributionness at center too. And also stretches of playing great and flashing upside. Just more stretches of everything at center. The bottom line is that his play thus far has depended so much on chemistry, utilization, it's not really possible to sit down with any small sample of games and say we know that's what Eller will do. Especially at wing. Overall, he looks good and seems to be progressing well, but the data is far from complete at wing. If we got another good center, I'd move Eller to wing before I'd move Desharnais or Plekanec, and before I'd shuffle him down to 4th line minutes, if we were down to experimenting again.
This.

I would be willing to move Plekanec for the right price and pieces, draft a Galchenyuk or Forsberg, and give Eller a shot on the 2nd line with Bourque and Gionta. As long as Gionta is healthy, he will be a good line mate who can coach, guide, and mentor Eller. It is time to see if Eller CAN be a top 6 center on our team.



Quote:
MasterDecoy plekanec and stastny are about same in term of value. stastny a bit more since he's younger, though paid substantially more than pleks. though the difference between plekanec and stastny most certainly isn't eller

besides, in that hypothetical, if eller got traded along with plek, where's he gonna play? guy can't play wing, 4th line?

trade is seriously not worth doing for both sides and the only time i see so much ******** in a trade proposal thread is when it involves any blues players, or huberdeau.


Quote:
a healthy mueller is as talented as max

yes he is, but sadly, he isn't healthy. i'd draw a comparison to markov regarding talent vs. health but that'd just be throwing fuel on the fire and it's as OT as it gets
Based on what, exactly? When did Mueller get over 30 goals or over 60 points at the NHL level? Compare their best seasons and look at hitsacioretty had 104, Mueller had 30. How about blocked shots: Pacioretty had 39, Mueller had 12. Where are they showing even levels of talent? Yes, Mueller has had a severe injury. So did Pacioretty. Notice how Mueller has had successively weaker seasons, while Pacioretty has had successively better seasons. How do they have the same talent level? What do you base that statement on? I am really curious. Seriously.

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05-16-2012, 11:20 AM
  #121
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The only reason you should trade Stastny is because he doesn't fit long-term with your team. You're not a contending team, asset management should be the number one driver here. Maybe other players fill your needs better, but I think you are over valuing your guy.

Stastny has this year and next year until he becomes UFA. If you wait a year or a year and a half he becomes valued like a rental, which will be lower than what is on the table. His next contract will probably be in the 8 years - $50 million or so range, I doubt it will be much less than that.
So the Avs are NOT a contending team right now so we should trade a guy who just turned 26 years old to get 'younger'?? [Psst - there is NOT one team in the NHL with a younger core group than what the Avs have]

Would you like to see the list of players who can become UFAs in TWO years? I haven't done the research but my guess is it's pretty long. Unless you have insider information that he wants out???

So wait, Stastny's value will be lower and by account of almost all Habs fans, he's 'overpaid' at his current contract of $6.6M but his NEXT contract will pay him an average salary of $6.25M over 8 years???


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05-16-2012, 11:26 AM
  #122
outoftune
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Why isn't this closed yet ?

So much stupidity from both sides.
From all fairness most of the stupid avs posts are coming from the same source.....

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05-16-2012, 11:34 AM
  #123
Bender
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Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
From all fairness most of the stupid avs posts are coming from the same source.....
Great contribution to the thread.

What has HFboards become!?! It used to be that you could make points and have discussions with people who don't always share the same point of view but you'd still try and get you're point across.

What is wrong with asking 'Why on earth the Avs would get rid of a guy, who just turned 26 years old...because they aren't a 'contending team' right now???"

I think it's a valid question. Is it because I'm not on board with this kind of thinking that my posts are now being referred to as 'stupid'??? [don't know if you were referring to me but you posted right after I did]

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05-16-2012, 12:11 PM
  #124
outoftune
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Great contribution to the thread.

What has HFboards become!?! It used to be that you could make points and have discussions with people who don't always share the same point of view but you'd still try and get you're point across.

What is wrong with asking 'Why on earth the Avs would get rid of a guy, who just turned 26 years old...because they aren't a 'contending team' right now???"

I think it's a valid question. Is it because I'm not on board with this kind of thinking that my posts are now being referred to as 'stupid'??? [don't know if you were referring to me but you posted right after I did]
That wasn't in relation to you actually... although i do find it funny that probably everyone on this board would feel i was talking about them.....


And I dont think stastny moving is a good idea at all.... but that shouldnt be what this is about its more about the value related to it which i think is rather fair (maybe lopsided in our favor actually)... and I (maybe as the only avs fan on here) wouldn't be overly upset if this deal were to actually happen (it wouldn't)

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05-16-2012, 12:14 PM
  #125
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The main reason why the Avs would trade Stastny is the emergence of O'Reilly.

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