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Big Joe to Leafs

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Old
05-16-2012, 01:08 PM
  #101
Vorkosh
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
I don't think he will get as much as you think he's a great goalie but he has 10 years left on his deal that will be hard to move.

He will get a decant package but less then most people think
I think you will be very surprised at the the return he fetches.

Unlike fans, GM's know the value Luongo brings.

1)It's only a 10 year deal if Luongo stays for all 10 years, he's not going to play for 1 million per year after making 6 million.

2) Luongo will no longer have a NTC after he gets dealt as once it's waived it's waived for the length of the contract

3) Luongo is only 33, Thomas and Brodeur are both 39ish and playing great, no reason Luongo can't do the same, which means you get 6 good years

4) Someone with Luongo's career numbers at only a 5.33 cap hit is a steal. It doesn't matter if Luongo is getting paid 6 million or 20 million, it's not your money, it's the owners, the cap is still a manageable 5.33m

5) If the return for Luongo isn't what Gillis wants, we will keep Luongo and trade Schneider. Vancouver fans have no problems keeping Luongo, he's a great goaltender that sucks in October, and came within 1 game of winning it all, which is more than a lot of other goaltenders have done that's out there.

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05-16-2012, 01:15 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I think you will be very surprised at the the return he fetches.

Unlike fans, GM's know the value Luongo brings.

1)It's only a 10 year deal if Luongo stays for all 10 years, he's not going to play for 1 million per year after making 6 million.

2) Luongo will no longer have a NTC after he gets dealt as once it's waived it's waived for the length of the contract


3) Luongo is only 33, Thomas and Brodeur are both 39ish and playing great, no reason Luongo can't do the same, which means you get 6 good years

4) Someone with Luongo's career numbers at only a 5.33 cap hit is a steal. It doesn't matter if Luongo is getting paid 6 million or 20 million, it's not your money, it's the owners, the cap is still a manageable 5.33m

5) If the return for Luongo isn't what Gillis wants, we will keep Luongo and trade Schneider. Vancouver fans have no problems keeping Luongo, he's a great goaltender that sucks in October, and came within 1 game of winning it all, which is more than a lot of other goaltenders have done that's out there.


So this is the primary rebuttal to Luongo's contract concern now is it? That we're expecting him to retire and leave the money on the table?

How many times has that happened in the history of the NHL - when a player retires and leaves large amounts of money on the table?

Only a 10 year deal.... only a 10 year deal that, if he goes south in 3, completely hammerscrews the acquiring team over. Completely. Plus that NTC may not get waived - its at the discretion of the acquiring team to honour it, and may be conditional in Luongo's terms.

There's little doubt he's a capable tender now. But the risk that accompanies that contract is too high to justify both acquiring him AND giving up significant assets in the process. THAT is what GMs are saying. Trade Schneider, you'll get a much better return for him.

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05-16-2012, 01:16 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'd be willing to take back Lombardi as a cap dump, but Connolly going back, and then the money it would take to sign Kulemin would actually result in a net increase in cap hit for the Sharks.

5th overall, Kulemin, Kadri, and Lombardi for Joe and 55th overall is something I think I would pull the trigger on.
This surprises me that a Sharks fan would accept that as a deal.

That doesn't seem like that good of a trade at all, Kulemin had an awful season and Kadri hasn't done anything in the NHL yet.

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05-16-2012, 01:18 PM
  #104
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This surprises me that a Sharks fan would accept that as a deal.

That doesn't seem like that good of a trade at all, Kulemin had an awful season and Kadri hasn't done anything in the NHL yet.
I wouldn't. We could get better packages elsewhere, no offense to the Leafs. We need forward talent, so do the Leafs, not the best trading partners.

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05-16-2012, 01:19 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
So this is the primary rebuttal to Luongo's contract concern now is it? That we're expecting him to retire and leave the money on the table?

How many times has that happened in the history of the NHL - when a player retires and leaves large amounts of money on the table?

Only a 10 year deal.... only a 10 year deal that, if he goes south in 3, completely hammerscrews the acquiring team over. Completely. Plus that NTC may not get waived - its at the discretion of the acquiring team to honour it, and may be conditional in Luongo's terms.

There's little doubt he's a capable tender now. But the risk that accompanies that contract is too high to justify both acquiring him AND giving up significant assets in the process. THAT is what GMs are saying. Trade Schneider, you'll get a much better return for him.

Getting off track as this is a thread about JT to Toronto, so I'll say this and then leave it at that.

NTC =/ NMC

If Luongo goes south in 3 years, put him on waivers for the minors. Team claims him, great you're off the hook and still got a solid 3 years out of him which in this alternate reality paired with the fact that you got JT out of San Jose probably makes the leafs a cup contender for those 3 years.

Now you can waive him, and if no one claims him, 5.33m off the books, if someone claims him, 5.33m off the books.


Last edited by Vorkosh: 05-16-2012 at 01:23 PM. Reason: got my facts regarding re-entry waivers wrong
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05-16-2012, 01:23 PM
  #106
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This surprises me that a Sharks fan would accept that as a deal.

That doesn't seem like that good of a trade at all, Kulemin had an awful season and Kadri hasn't done anything in the NHL yet.
Like you say, 5th overall is a good pick. Kulemin had a bad season, yes, but that means that he'll be signed for cheap on his RFA contract, and if he even hits 20 goals consistently again it'll be a steal, and he is also exactly the type of player we need: hard-working, speedy, solid defensively and some scoring pop. Kadri is starting to get fairly underrated on here. Kadri hasn't been spectacular at the NHL level, but he hasn't been horrible either and he hasn't really been given a great shot. He's still a good prospect. I you think it's too little, add Colborne or take out our 2nd. But those three pieces are the ones I'd require from Toronto in any trade for Joe.

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05-16-2012, 01:26 PM
  #107
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I wouldn't. We could get better packages elsewhere, no offense to the Leafs. We need forward talent, so do the Leafs, not the best trading partners.
Well, this is presuming that he's traded to Toronto. But I really don't know who else would be able to top that, to be honest. Any ideas? I know St. Louis, Nashville, Florida, Buffalo have all expressed a degree of interest.

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05-16-2012, 01:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Like you say, 5th overall is a good pick. Kulemin had a bad season, yes, but that means that he'll be signed for cheap on his RFA contract, and if he even hits 20 goals consistently again it'll be a steal, and he is also exactly the type of player we need: hard-working, speedy, solid defensively and some scoring pop. Kadri is starting to get fairly underrated on here. Kadri hasn't been spectacular at the NHL level, but he hasn't been horrible either and he hasn't really been given a great shot. He's still a good prospect. I you think it's too little, add Colborne or take out our 2nd. But those three pieces are the ones I'd require from Toronto in any trade for Joe.
Yeah, I just thik that 2nd rounder doesn't need to go from the Sharks.

Like you've said, Thornton is a top 10 center in the league who is also a pretty damn good 2 way guy.

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05-16-2012, 01:30 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
2) Luongo will no longer have a NTC after he gets dealt as once it's waived it's waived for the length of the contract
Typically players only waive the NTC IF the team honors it going forward. Look at Brad Richards in Dallas. He had a NTC, yet it carried over.

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05-16-2012, 01:42 PM
  #110
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That isn't in the same ballpark. Those guys didn't return cap dumps. They returned a prized young asset and a serviceable young player now. Kulemin was horrible last season and has little trade value because of it. The Sharks also don't need a serviceable center that has injury problems. The 5th and Kadri/Colborne is fine if the other particulars are taken care of. They'll need guys they can count on to contribute now as a starting point for a trade and asset(s) for the future as well for Thornton.
.
It really is pretty close. Joe's not gonna get a whole lot more coming back.

Kulemin had a bad year, doesnt mean he's a bad player. Lots of players struggle the year after a breakout season. Not to mention Toronto didn't give him much to work with last season.

Connolly isn't a Salary dump in the truest sense of the work. He's a solid 55 pt 2nd line center over a full season. Yes he has injury issues it he's only got 1 season left. Provides good depth with the loss of Thornton, and if pavelski and couture are rolling, can easily be moved at the deadline.

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05-16-2012, 01:43 PM
  #111
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i think we saw what thornton's value was the last time he got traded... and this was when he was young and full of promise and in the middle of being an mvp candidate with dominating regular season performances.

san jose doesnt have to trade him... boston did. so motivated seller will lower the price. cap era obviously factors in here. alot of teams wouldnt see thornton as the missing piece to get him over the top cause he doesnt seem to care enough about the playoffs to elevate his game at crunch time.

overall... if san jose did want to move thornton i could see toronto making some sense. the top pick and a guy like schenn would be way more value then thornton got last time around. i dont see many other teams beating that offer. maybe throw in connolly or bozek as a cap dump and call it a done deal

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05-16-2012, 01:47 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Vorkosh View Post
I think you will be very surprised at the the return he fetches.

Unlike fans, GM's know the value Luongo brings.

1)It's only a 10 year deal if Luongo stays for all 10 years, he's not going to play for 1 million per year after making 6 million.
you can bet $1million/season he would.
...do you really think a man will say to his wife, i think I'll stay home with you, and not bring home $1million dollar this year for 6 mos 'work'. ...maybe i'll get a regular job paying $20/hour instead of taking the $1million dollars that my agent negotiated, and took a percentage of.

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05-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
i think we saw what thornton's value was the last time he got traded... and this was when he was young and full of promise and in the middle of being an mvp candidate with dominating regular season performances.

san jose doesnt have to trade him... boston did. so motivated seller will lower the price. cap era obviously factors in here. alot of teams wouldnt see thornton as the missing piece to get him over the top cause he doesnt seem to care enough about the playoffs to elevate his game at crunch time.

overall... if san jose did want to move thornton i could see toronto making some sense. the top pick and a guy like schenn would be way more value then thornton got last time around. i dont see many other teams beating that offer. maybe throw in connolly or bozek as a cap dump and call it a done deal
I don't think we say his value that day at all since he wasn't shopped it's hard to get an understanding of a guys value when he's not shopped for the best offer

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05-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #114
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you can bet $1million/season he would.
...do you really think a man will say to his wife, i think I'll stay home with you, and not bring home $1million dollar this year for 6 mos 'work'. ...maybe i'll get a regular job paying $20/hour instead of taking the $1million dollars that my agent negotiated, and took a percentage of.
That's ridiculous,

1 million dollars to Luongo is nothing, that's like saying, I'm earning, 20 dollars an hour for 8 years. When year 9 hits, if I want to keep doing the same thing I've been doing I'm going to drop down to 3.40 dollars an hour

After taxes on 1 million dollars, he'd lucky to take home 600k. 600k compared to what he's already banked in endorsements and his front loaded contract? I'm gonna guess he stays home and spends time with his kids and family

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05-16-2012, 03:41 PM
  #115
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It really is pretty close. Joe's not gonna get a whole lot more coming back.

Kulemin had a bad year, doesnt mean he's a bad player. Lots of players struggle the year after a breakout season. Not to mention Toronto didn't give him much to work with last season.

Connolly isn't a Salary dump in the truest sense of the work. He's a solid 55 pt 2nd line center over a full season. Yes he has injury issues it he's only got 1 season left. Provides good depth with the loss of Thornton, and if pavelski and couture are rolling, can easily be moved at the deadline.
The proposal you're making is Kulemin, Connolly, Kadri/Colborne, and the 5th for Joe and the #55. Compare that to Richards for Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd round pick. Kulemin and Connolly are both guys that are coming off of subpar seasons. That impacts their value whether they're bad players or not. Connolly, in particular, is a cap dump from San Jose's perspective. They don't need a center to replace Thornton because two of Couture, Marleau, and Pavelski would play the center position. Kulemin is also not likely to have much value beyond the season he had due to his nationality. Fair or not, Doug Wilson tends to stay away from Russians.

Outside of Kadri/Colborne and the 5th overall, there is no value in that trade for the Sharks. The guys you should be looking at returning are guys that fill a need for the Sharks. If they aren't doing that at the NHL level, what's the point for them to move Jumbo? The likelihood is that if Jumbo becomes available at the draft, he's going to garner a decent player now, a good prospect, and a high pick. From the Leafs, I'd bet that it's more like Gunnarsson, Kadri/Colborne, and the #5 without the Sharks giving up that #55. If they had to return a pick, it'd be in the 5th round or later. If he becomes available and the Leafs refuse to pay that price, they'll find someone who will and someone will for a player like Thornton.

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05-16-2012, 03:52 PM
  #116
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I don't think many Leafs fans want him. Personally, I'd like to prefer other options rather than him!

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05-16-2012, 04:54 PM
  #117
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alot of teams wouldnt see thornton as the missing piece to get him over the top cause he doesnt seem to care enough about the playoffs to elevate his game at crunch time.
Tell me, does your throat hurt from regurgitating that tired old rhetoric?

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05-16-2012, 04:56 PM
  #118
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I don't think many Leafs fans want him. Personally, I'd like to prefer other options rather than him!
really you don't think many Leaf fans would want him as Kessel's center?

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05-16-2012, 04:58 PM
  #119
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I approve of Joe to the Leafs. The idea of Leafs fans whining about him constantly would be a coup for every other fan base.

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05-16-2012, 05:00 PM
  #120
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really you don't think many Leaf fans would want him as Kessel's center?
I'm just saying there are better options than a 32 year old with a 7 million dollar cap hit. Otherwise, I know he's an excellent, experienced hockey player.

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05-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #121
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I'm just saying there are better options than a 32 year old with a 7 million dollar cap hit. Otherwise, I know he's an excellent, experienced hockey player.
who would you go after?

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05-16-2012, 05:11 PM
  #122
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who would you go after?
Uff, there's so many options! But I'd make a push for Staal. If not Staal, then draft Galy.

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05-16-2012, 05:12 PM
  #123
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who would you go after?
He's probably one of the delusional fans that thinks Getzlaf's available and than Staal will come to Toronto without Kessel going back.

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05-16-2012, 05:15 PM
  #124
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I wouldn't. We could get better packages elsewhere, no offense to the Leafs. We need forward talent, so do the Leafs, not the best trading partners.
That package is comparable / better than what the Flyers recieved for Richards or Carter, both of whom are more valuable at this point than Thornton. If They can get a top-5 pick + two young roster forwards, if has to be something they consider if they are going to move him.

(If they basically won't move him for any package, then that's a different story).

I really, really can't see any team offering a better package than that.

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05-16-2012, 05:17 PM
  #125
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He's probably one of the delusional fans that thinks Getzlaf's available and than Staal will come to Toronto without Kessel going back.
Actually, Staal could get traded for a top 6 forward, and its not like the Leafs don't have defensive depth. So yepp. They can have defensive prospects, I'd even be willing to trade Phaneuf. (Cap Hit, so not really for Pittsburgh). Gunnarsson, Schenn, Franson, Holzer. All possible people to go to Pitts.

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