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I cant stand Jeff Carter

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Old
05-16-2012, 03:41 PM
  #76
flyershockey
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Same deal, I guess. I have a problem with people that try to blame them 100% for every issue that arose in the 2011 season.
Except most people don't, myself included. The goaltending was laughable at best, and Lavy got completely out-coached for most of the Boston series. Seems to be a trend, as it happened again this year against the Devils. Holmgren absolutely butchered a couple of things as well.

But, I do know that there were several times that year where Richards and Carter were nowhere to be found. That can't happen when your the supposed leaders of the team. Whether they were unhappy with Lavy, didn't care for the Pronger influence, or disliked the Dry Island program is irrelevant. They're professionals, and they're expected to act like it. It's annoying that it took them being traded to realize that they'll be held accountable for their actions. They stand a good chance to win a cup in L.A. this year, but they could have stayed here and done it as well.

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05-16-2012, 03:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post

But, I do know that there were several times that year where Richards and Carter were nowhere to be found. That can't happen when your the supposed leaders of the team. Whether they were unhappy with Lavy, didn't care for the Pronger influence, or disliked the Dry Island program is irrelevant. They're professionals, and they're expected to act like it. It's annoying that it took them being traded to realize that they'll be held accountable for their actions. They stand a good chance to win a cup in L.A. this year, but they could have stayed here and done it as well.
As I noted they were thrust into prominant roles by management and even the coach (Stevens)and it wasn't their fault..I mean we know Richards is a "one of the guys" type person and LA is a perfect fit for him.

However, yes once you are "chosen" you bear some responsibility too. I never thought Carter soured on the Flyers at all...and I think he was fine with the coach. Richards on the other hand did sour for various reasons off ice (coach, media, etc). He didn't handle the scrutiny well although it was his responsibility to do so and in the second half of his final season here it started to show on and off the ice.

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05-16-2012, 03:48 PM
  #78
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He doesn't need to score 46. He doesn't even need to score 35 because their team is built on defense and he's a huge contributor there. They've played 11 playoff games and had 3 shutouts which means they only needed 3 goals in 3 games to win. Their strength is in shutting the opponent down and they are doing a fantastic job.

As far as Richards and Carter being part of the problem in 2011, no doubt they didn't get along with Lavi. We don't know what the issues were but looking at the type of players they are and then looking at the system Lavi implemented, it's really no surprise they didn't see eye to eye. Powe was also a defensive specialist and he was sent off, too. They brought in Jagr who doesn't play defense and their system and choice of players cost them in the playoffs. We'll see if they learn anything from the playoffs and at that point, Homer will have to decide if he wants to keep Lavi as coach. When Lavi was in Carolina, does anyone know what his coaching style was like? I keep hearing he has a short shelf life but I don't know if that's his personality with the players or his inability to change the team's style of play.
You have a good point about the Carter thing. He doesn't need to be that guy certainly.

I can definitely see Lavy having a short shelf life here as well. As much as his teams are fun to watch, I can't believe the players are always going to be in love with the system. It relies on constant, and I mean constant, up-tempo skating. The defenseman also have to pinch a ton, which results in them getting beat up physically. (Has it been a surprise that's why Timonen has limped into the playoffs the last two years?) The same thing happens to the forwards who have to forecheck like bats out of hell, they open themselves up to getting banged up as well. Eventually the coach loses the players, and I think management will take notice of that. As far as I know, that's why he didn't last in Carolina very long even after winning a Stanley Cup.

Lavy seems to be the perfect coach for a team that's on the cusp of winning a cup. He can get guys to elevate their games, but it seems to wear thin on some guys after a while.

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05-16-2012, 03:57 PM
  #79
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One does need to consider that the GM was not about to offer up another coach as a sacraficial lamb so they went the players route and targeted the two players with the most controversy (fairly or unfairly), constricting contracts, and ability to net the biggest returns. This context is important in all of this. Lavy does bear responsibility to hold up his end and so far in the first year since the trade his grade remains satisfactory IMO. GM now has to fix the D and try to extend Lavi's shelf life some more which he already did last offseason. Whether he is successful I'm not so sure..I think Lavi's clock is ticking. He's a good coach but yes he's a short shelf lifer....he believes his system is the identity of the team but if the team doesn't identify with his system any longer then it doesn't matter what his definition is. Against Boston and Devils he showed he has trouble adjusting....doesn't bode well going forward especially if he doesn't agree with the GM saying that he does need to figure out some things/adjustments for next season....

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05-16-2012, 04:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Reaper1097 View Post
I am not a professional athlete. My field of work doesnt include sudden relocations, however, being a professional athlete making millions of dollars a year might have to deal with this issue. Once they have enough vested time a player earns the right to have a NMC and then they have a little more control, however, until then it comes with the territory. If they dont like that aspect of the profession then maybe they shouldve chosen another line of work. I hate when people compare a middle class worker and a professional athlete. It is stupid.

With that said, because he was a whiny little prima-donna, he set columbus back a few more years. A franchise that is already struggling in their existence. What they traded to philly was more than what they recieved from the Kings. Jack Johnson is nice player, but not as much potential as voracek and especially couturier.

I have no problem with any ex flyer or any other player on the roster winning the cup on the kings. Just Carter and it is just my opinion that he doesnt deserve it. Guys like Quick, Brown, and Kopitar deserve.
No dispute that the Flyers acted within the rules of what is and is not allowed, but what makes him a whiny prima donna? Being traded to a mid-range midwestern town literally weeks after figuring you signed the next 11 years away while being lied to? Carter and his agent were outright lied to. I'd lock myself in my house for 3 days too.

And Carter didn't set back the Blue Jackets, Scott Howson did. He's doing a real bang up job between trading for players who don't want to be there (and thus forced to sell low on them), throwing the team captain and only marketable player under the bus, and firing coaches who have more credibility than he does. As a player, I'd be eternally pissed off too.

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05-16-2012, 04:12 PM
  #81
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You have a good point about the Carter thing. He doesn't need to be that guy certainly.

I can definitely see Lavy having a short shelf life here as well. As much as his teams are fun to watch, I can't believe the players are always going to be in love with the system. It relies on constant, and I mean constant, up-tempo skating. The defenseman also have to pinch a ton, which results in them getting beat up physically. (Has it been a surprise that's why Timonen has limped into the playoffs the last two years?) The same thing happens to the forwards who have to forecheck like bats out of hell, they open themselves up to getting banged up as well. Eventually the coach loses the players, and I think management will take notice of that. As far as I know, that's why he didn't last in Carolina very long even after winning a Stanley Cup.

Lavy seems to be the perfect coach for a team that's on the cusp of winning a cup. He can get guys to elevate their games, but it seems to wear thin on some guys after a while.
Agreed on all points. I think the style of hockey he expects will never give you 60 minutes of solid play. They just can't keep up with it and it starts to sour the players. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if that was the issue between Richards and Lavi because while neither said anything, Richards has repeatedly said the style Murray and Sutter have them playing is perfect for his style of game. It wasn't that case with Lavi.

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One does need to consider that the GM was not about to offer up another coach as a sacraficial lamb so they went the players route and targeted the two players with the most controversy (fairly or unfairly), constricting contracts, and ability to net the biggest returns. This context is important in all of this. Lavy does bear responsibility to hold up his end and so far in the first year since the trade his grade remains satisfactory IMO. GM now has to fix the D and try to extend Lavi's shelf life some more which he already did last offseason. Whether he is successful I'm not so sure..I think Lavi's clock is ticking. He's a good coach but yes he's a short shelf lifer....he believes his system is the identity of the team but if the team doesn't identify with his system any longer then it doesn't matter what his definition is. Against Boston and Devils he showed he has trouble adjusting....doesn't bode well going forward especially if he doesn't agree with the GM saying that he does need to figure out some things/adjustments for next season....
I love Lavi's passion and what I've seen of his personality and a lot of that was because he wasn't Stevens. But I don't think he's that good of a coach, going back to 2010/2011. He made a lot of strange moves and he's too stubborn for his own good, examples being leaving Briere at centre when he should have been on RW and also putting him out against Krejci's line when they were getting murdered against them. Also, he repeatedly said he hated the shootout and they only seemed to start working on it later this season after losing games because of it. It's there, as much as he and most fans hate it, it's part of the game and it needs to be worked on.

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05-16-2012, 04:19 PM
  #82
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I think he's still a great player, I just don't see another 46 goal season out of him. I think he'll continue to be a 30-35 goal guy unless he plays for another coach outside of the Sutter mold.

I don't hate Richards or Carter, and I still like them as players. I do have a problem with people that try to absolve them of any blame for the 2011 season.
He may not hit 46 again, but that's because goal scorers tend to peak earlier. The average age of Rocket Richard trophy winners is 24.

A player that can consistently score 30-35 goals is still very valuable. The thing that always gets me is that Carter is basically Rick Nash. Nash is considered an offensive stud by most and everyone was drooling over him at the deadline yet Carter is considered a bum. I don't get it.

Nash: 311 games, 135 goals, 271 pts, .43 goals per game, .87 points per game
Carter: 291 games, 136 goals, 245 pts, .47 goals per game, .84 points per game

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05-16-2012, 04:25 PM
  #83
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he only scores in blowouts

yeah i said it
... and he only blows in outscoring.

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05-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #84
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i hate all other teams but the Flyers. I know players come and go and all it really is is a soap opera but there's no way i could root for old players who couldn't win a cup here to win one elsewhere. i have too much emotionally invested in the orange and black. it is stupid i know but i only root for teams to lose. this years team for me is the kings. I hope the rangers beat em good.

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05-16-2012, 04:29 PM
  #85
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Do you honestly believe anything you are saying?

Do you know how absurd this sound? Do you think his stats are lying?
Have you ever heard of hollow stats? Or that stats can be misleading? they can be spun in any direction.

I mean Bobby Abreu is gonna have stats better then some hall of famers. But is he worthy of the hall of fame? No way IMO.

That's how I view carter. A very good player with nice stats and that's about it.

I agree that he is a complimentary player and as long as he was a flyer he (and Richards) would have been looked at as the marquee players.

I have read numerous posts on these boards refering to him as "high and wide" so I can't be the only one who sees it this way...

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05-16-2012, 04:30 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Reaper1097 View Post
Have you ever heard of hollow stats? Or that stats can be misleading? they can be spun in any direction.

I mean Bobby Abreu is gonna have stats better then some hall of famers. But is he worthy of the hall of fame? No way IMO.

That's how I view carter. A very good player with nice stats and that's about it.

I agree that he is a complimentary player and as long as he was a flyer he (and Richards) would have been looked at as the marquee players.

I have read numerous posts on these boards refering to him as "high and wide" so I can't be the only one who sees it this way...
Fun fact. Those that shoot the most miss the net the most.

In addition, he was traded for someone just as "high and wide" (Voracek).

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05-16-2012, 04:31 PM
  #87
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how did they treat him terribly, they gave him a huge contract?
Flyers didn't pay a penny of that contract. They agreed on terms with a NTC then traded him to arguably the least desirable location in the NHL before they had to abide by it. It basically turned into the Flyers misleading Carter with an agreement that would keep him in Philadelphia for his career, then reaping the spike in trade value that extension provided by violating that trust. You can argue that Carter should have played better that postseason, but it's nevertheless an unprecedented sign of disrespect.

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05-16-2012, 04:31 PM
  #88
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Fun fact. Those that shoot the most miss the net the most.

In addition, he was traded for someone just as "high and wide" (Voracek).
Please don't mess up this thread with facts.

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05-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Reaper1097 View Post
Have you ever heard of hollow stats? Or that stats can be misleading? they can be spun in any direction.

I mean Bobby Abreu is gonna have stats better then some hall of famers. But is he worthy of the hall of fame? No way IMO.

That's how I view carter. A very good player with nice stats and that's about it.

I agree that he is a complimentary player and as long as he was a flyer he (and Richards) would have been looked at as the marquee players.

I have read numerous posts on these boards refering to him as "high and wide" so I can't be the only one who sees it this way...
OMG I love this post. You brought up Bobby Abreu. So you don't know hockey and you don't know baseball. Awesome.

There is no such thing as a hollow stat. 30 goals are 30 goals. They aren't worth any less because you don't like the player scoring them.

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05-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #90
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I can't stand fans that make posts like this.

As for people complaining about his few months in Columbus, just look at that franchise. They're a complete cluster-F in all aspects - from drafting and developing, to free agency / trades, to coaching and management. I wouldn't have been happy going there and I don't think it defines a person's career whether or not a player succeeds in such an environment, especially given the short amount of time he was there.

I wanted Carter gone. Doesn't mean I thought he was a bad or ineffective player, I just wish he had the willingness to play closer to the net without breaking an ankle (which it seems he's been doing). He's shown he has the ability to succeed in some capacity. Whether or not you agree with the role/reputation he was given here in Philly is a different story.

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05-16-2012, 04:40 PM
  #91
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Fun fact. Those that shoot the most miss the net the most.

In addition, he was traded for someone just as "high and wide" (Voracek).
Don't start this crap where he led the team in shots on goal for 4 years in a row.

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05-16-2012, 04:43 PM
  #92
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Columbus got ****ed by the Carter trade. Mostly because Couturier fell to us (which I am assuming they weren't expecting), and nor did anyone really expect Couturier to come in and play like he did.

I think Columbus was thinking it would be Voracek+Hamilton/Murphy for Carter, not Voracek+future stud centre (AKA what Columbus was looking for with Carter). Huge difference IMO.

Johnson+1st would've been decent if that 1st wasn't going to be 29th or 30th... They'll still get a decent player but they could've had someone like Finn, Pouliot or Lindholm if the Kings went out in the first round.

ANYWAY moving on the Carter in general -- when the guy is on the ice, other teams better take notice. Likely a big reason why the Kings offense opened up. Jeff has a wicked shot and shoots often, and scores often. 46, 33, 36 and then 21 in 55 (on pace for 32 or so in a full season). Guy scores goals, and other teams recognize that. If he's on the ice you better keep that puck off his stick...

They now have 6 former 30 goal scorers on their top 2 lines, as opposed to Mike Richards with Trent Hunter and Andrei Loktionov on the wings.

Penner finding his game again, Richards in typical Richards playoff mode, Brown/Kopitar/Williams playing unreal... and the bottom two lines are both performing like the 3rd line you want in the playoffs. Reminds me of Boston last year. Go Kings!

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05-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #93
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The Kings' offense was a different beast after they got Carter. I'd say that makes him essential, not complimentary.
Yeah, basically. Carter is great at creating space for himself to score, which is its own unique talent. It changes the makeup of the defense to cover him and makes the whole line better.

The Kings really needed another bear of a line to roll. They've been much much better offensively since he arrived.

.... and I don't like Carter.

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05-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #94
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He may not hit 46 again, but that's because goal scorers tend to peak earlier. The average age of Rocket Richard trophy winners is 24.

A player that can consistently score 30-35 goals is still very valuable. The thing that always gets me is that Carter is basically Rick Nash. Nash is considered an offensive stud by most and everyone was drooling over him at the deadline yet Carter is considered a bum. I don't get it.

Nash: 311 games, 135 goals, 271 pts, .43 goals per game, .87 points per game
Carter: 291 games, 136 goals, 245 pts, .47 goals per game, .84 points per game
What's also been interesting in his time in LA is his passing has been excellent. He's always had a shoot first mentality but he's been making really good passes and in fact, Richards seems to be shooting more. His game has really rounded out nicely and if it means less goals, nobody cares...except people who hate him and manipulate his stats to their advantage.

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05-16-2012, 04:50 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by phillyflyerfan1992 View Post
Columbus got ****ed by the Carter trade. Mostly because Couturier fell to us (which I am assuming they weren't expecting), and nor did anyone really expect Couturier to come in and play like he did.

I think Columbus was thinking it would be Voracek+Hamilton/Murphy for Carter, not Voracek+future stud centre (AKA what Columbus was looking for with Carter). Huge difference IMO.

Johnson+1st would've been decent if that 1st wasn't going to be 29th or 30th... They'll still get a decent player but they could've had someone like Finn, Pouliot or Lindholm if the Kings went out in the first round.

ANYWAY moving on the Carter in general -- when the guy is on the ice, other teams better take notice. Likely a big reason why the Kings offense opened up. Jeff has a wicked shot and shoots often, and scores often. 46, 33, 36 and then 21 in 55 (on pace for 32 or so in a full season). Guy scores goals, and other teams recognize that. If he's on the ice you better keep that puck off his stick...

They now have 6 former 30 goal scorers on their top 2 lines, as opposed to Mike Richards with Trent Hunter and Andrei Loktionov on the wings.

Penner finding his game again, Richards in typical Richards playoff mode, Brown/Kopitar/Williams playing unreal... and the bottom two lines are both performing like the 3rd line you want in the playoffs. Reminds me of Boston last year. Go Kings!
There is a silver lining for Columbus because they got Jack Johnson. He was pretty bad in LA, his plus/minus there was abysmal but he is pretty happy to be in Columbus and it isn't only because he's bitter at the Kings. If Nash goes, he'll likely be named captain. It was really a double win for LA because not only did they get Carter but it also allowed them to bring Voynov up full time. Now they have 2 defencemen who are 22 years old and both are good at offense and defence. Each are paired with a vet, Scuderi and Mitchell, who has been the unsung hero of this team. Columbus will also get the Kings' first round pick this year or next, likely next since LA will be picking at the end of the first this year.

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05-16-2012, 04:51 PM
  #96
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Agreed on all points. I think the style of hockey he expects will never give you 60 minutes of solid play. They just can't keep up with it and it starts to sour the players. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if that was the issue between Richards and Lavi because while neither said anything, Richards has repeatedly said the style Murray and Sutter have them playing is perfect for his style of game. It wasn't that case with Lavi.
That's certainly possible. It would be impossible for a a player like Richards, who relies on making emotional gritty plays, to survive for 82 games and the playoffs under Lavy's system. His game is much more effective in a refined system that focuses on minimizing the fatigue, which is certainly what he gets in a more confined Sutter system. Let's face it, he's not going to stop hit like a mack truck, driving the net hard, or backchecking like his life depended on it.

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05-16-2012, 04:54 PM
  #97
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He may not hit 46 again, but that's because goal scorers tend to peak earlier. The average age of Rocket Richard trophy winners is 24.

A player that can consistently score 30-35 goals is still very valuable. The thing that always gets me is that Carter is basically Rick Nash. Nash is considered an offensive stud by most and everyone was drooling over him at the deadline yet Carter is considered a bum. I don't get it.

Nash: 311 games, 135 goals, 271 pts, .43 goals per game, .87 points per game
Carter: 291 games, 136 goals, 245 pts, .47 goals per game, .84 points per game
That's certainly true, but I also don't believe Nash to be as good as some people say he is. He shows up in international tournaments, but has pretty limited success at the NHL level when compared to his hype. The only thing I'll say in his defense is that he certainly hasn't had the level of teammates that Carter has had. He's spent most of his career as a one man show because the management in Columbus is about as bad as it gets.

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05-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #98
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There is a silver lining for Columbus because they got Jack Johnson. He was pretty bad in LA, his plus/minus there was abysmal but he is pretty happy to be in Columbus and it isn't only because he's bitter at the Kings. If Nash goes, he'll likely be named captain. It was really a double win for LA because not only did they get Carter but it also allowed them to bring Voynov up full time. Now they have 2 defencemen who are 22 years old and both are good at offense and defence. Each are paired with a vet, Scuderi and Mitchell, who has been the unsung hero of this team. Columbus will also get the Kings' first round pick this year or next, likely next since LA will be picking at the end of the first this year.
I agree with Johnson - would love to have him in Philly. I think he's great but he just got outshined by Doughty as the "offensive defensemen with physicality". Short-term LA has done fantastically as they've had a core many considered to be elite even without Carter/Richards. Adding two proven winners has really boosted their Stanley Cup hopes (obviously).

I believe the clause about 1st rounder was if the Kings missed the playoffs this year, CBJ would've gotten the Kings pick from the 2013 draft. If the Kings made them this year, they get this year's 1st rounder. I could be wrong though.

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05-16-2012, 05:06 PM
  #99
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Also, because of leightons miscue everyone forgets carter flubbed an open net shot late in regulation. He scores there and overtime never happens
People also forget that the Kane goal wasn't the only bad goal Leighton allowed in that game. Carter screwed up there, I admit it, but there's no reason to make stuff up about him only scoring when it doesn't matter.

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05-16-2012, 05:17 PM
  #100
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It depends entirely on the game as to which forwards are more prominent. Some games, it's the Kopitar line, others it's the Richards line. When a team focuses on shutting down one of them, the other steps up and buries the opposition.

Absolutely agree that Quick has been fantastic, and Doughty looks like he's returned to Olympic form. Their young defensemen have been very good and their veterans have been brilliant.
I so badly wanted Voynov in the Richards deal. He's a total stud.

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