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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
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05-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #201
bennysflyers16
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
A third of your cap spent on your Top 5 defensemen?


Sounds....actually it sounds like what's supposed to happen.
Ya, if they were 5 good D men. Sorry, I meant to say on OUR TOP 5 D men. This team was a ****ing mess on D this year, give me another Grossmann type at 3.5 over Carle anyday of the week and wait and see how the Suter/Weber/Pronger situation plays out.

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05-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #202
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So just cause he is the 2nd best of a sub par UFA crop, we should throw 5 mill at him ??
If July 2nd and Matty franchise is available, maybe look at keeping him, but signing him pre July 1st will be a huge mistake.
We should give him $5M because that is his market value.

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05-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #203
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Cause it would be essentially the same core as this year which was a mess. If we are spending 5 mill, we need a tougher more physical defensive D man or a guy with better than an atom kids point shot.

23 million on this current top 5 would be a waste of cap space.

Carle, 5 plus years at 5 mill or more will be a Leino esque contract, hope to hell it aint us giving it.
No it wouldn't be the same core. Meszaros was hurt and couldn't play in the playoffs. And no it wouldn't be a Leion esque contract. Leino was unproven. Carle is a proven commodity as a defenseman. And has been a very good Dman for a number of years. And is very consistent.

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I don't care if it is manageable, Carle isn't a very good D man. I want to wait until next year when Kimmo's hit drops and take a hard run at Weber, sure as **** don't want Carle on the books at 5 mill per
yes, Carle is a very good Dman. But every metric available.

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05-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #204
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So then what happens when Weber signs a long-term contract? Your master plan is already up in smoke.
Look elsewhere, or trade one of our many attractive , young forwards. Signing Carle long term is saying you are content with this D core, which is a joke.

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05-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #205
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Ya, if they were 5 good D men. Sorry, I meant to say on OUR TOP 5 D men. This team was a ****ing mess on D this year, give me another Grossmann type at 3.5 over Carle anyday of the week and wait and see how the Suter/Weber/Pronger situation plays out.
You need a blend and mix of defenseman to have a good team. If you have too many Grossmann's. You'll be lacking the ability to skate and pass the puck. Which is a huge part of today's NHL game.

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05-16-2012, 04:43 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Look elsewhere, or trade one of our many attractive , young forwards. Signing Carle long term is saying you are content with this D core, which is a joke.
Were the Flyers content with their forward core when they signed Jeff Carter to an 11-year contract?

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05-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #207
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You need a blend and mix of defenseman to have a good team. If you have too many Grossmann's. You'll be lacking the ability to skate and pass the puck. Which is a huge part of today's NHL game.
Kimmo, Gus and Mez/Coburn can move the puck decently. So can another D man we bring via trade or free agency. This same top 5 ( Mezz included ) aint good enough.

Carle's avoidance of contact, lack of physical play and his bottom 5 shot in the league makes him a 3-4 million dollar D man, 5 mill is insane.

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05-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #208
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Were the Flyers content with their forward core when they signed Jeff Carter to an 11-year contract?
No, it was a stupid contract and they fixed the **** up.

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05-16-2012, 04:49 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Kimmo, Gus and Mez/Coburn can move the puck decently. So can another D man we bring via trade or free agency. This same top 5 ( Mezz included ) aint good enough.

Carle's avoidance of contact, lack of physical play and his bottom 5 shot in the league makes him a 3-4 million dollar D man, 5 mill is insane.
None of those players are anywhere near as good as Carle is at moving the puck. With the exception of Timonen.

Carle doesn't avoid contact. That's simply inaccurate. And instead of just guessing and randomly coming up with a figure for what you think Carle is worth. Why not do a little research. Look at the NHL salary structure. Look at comparable players. And make an informed opinion of what Carle is worth.

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05-16-2012, 04:50 PM
  #210
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No, it was a stupid contract and they fixed the **** up.

So, you agree that giving Carle a contract doesn't doom this team to eternal damnation and/or open the Gates of Hell.

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05-16-2012, 04:53 PM
  #211
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None of those players are anywhere near as good as Carle is at moving the puck. With the exception of Timonen.

Carle doesn't avoid contact. That's simply inaccurate. And instead of just guessing and randomly coming up with a figure for what you think Carle is worth. Why not do a little research. Look at the NHL salary structure. Look at comparable players. And make an informed opinion of what Carle is worth.
I have watched Carle every single shift as a Flyer, he can go make whatever the **** he wants somewhere else. He is our 5th best D man and should be paid accordingly by what will make the Flyers a better team to win a cup, Carle at 5 mill does nothing to help with that goal.

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05-16-2012, 04:56 PM
  #212
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So, you agree that giving Carle a contract doesn't doom this team to eternal damnation and/or open the Gates of Hell.
Why give one in the first place. I could jump out the window and not die, doens't mean it is the best thing to do. Matt Carle sucks, let some other team over pay him. Ian White > Matt Carle, dumb Wings should of gave him 5 million.

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05-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
I have watched Carle every single shift as a Flyer, he can go make whatever the **** he wants somewhere else. He is our 5th best D man and should be paid accordingly by what will make the Flyers a better team to win a cup, Carle at 5 mill does nothing to help with that goal.
Why is the 5th best D man on the team getting the most ice time in games then? Where are the facts? You can make these statements all you want. You can't support it. The fact that you watched every single shift Carle has player is really irrelevant. Anyone can watch a game. Carle at 5M absolutely helps the team towards the goal if winning a Cup.

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05-16-2012, 05:03 PM
  #214
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Carle at 5M absolutely helps the team towards the goal if winning a Cup.
you forgot to end with "for some other team"..

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05-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #215
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Carle finished in the defensive zone more than any other defenseman (increased ice time likely bumps up that number a bit, though). He finished less often in the offensive zone (percentage-wise) than Timonen, Coburn, and Mez. He did better than Lilja and GrossmannNn there.

I've only eyeballed this, haven't looked too deeply into it or really considered it because I'm pretty busy at the moment, but this seems to indicate that Carle isn't as great at moving the puck up ice as people claim. I remember seeing him and Grossmann stuck in their end of the ice a lot, and these numbers could confirm that...though more of that blame would lie with Grossmann, it's not like Carle was helping matters a whole lot.

Pronger looks like he was definitely best in those categories, with Timonen in second...which confirms what we already knew. So if people are saying that we should keep Carle because otherwise we wouldn't have anybody to move the puck up, I hesitate to accept that. It seems like Carle is average compared to his teammates in that regard, with the team getting better results while Coburn and Mez are on the ice..and Timonen, needless to say.

Don't anybody take that as gospel though, I'm just throwing crap around pretty much. Like I said, don't have much free brain space to really consider it at the moment.

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05-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #216
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you forgot to end with "for some other team"..
Nope, I didn't. The chances are very good that Carle remains a Flyers.

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05-16-2012, 05:06 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Carle finished in the defensive zone more than any other defenseman (increased ice time likely bumps up that number a bit, though). He finished less often in the offensive zone (percentage-wise) than Timonen, Coburn, and Mez. He did better than Lilja and GrossmannNn there.

I've only eyeballed this, haven't looked too deeply into it or really considered it because I'm pretty busy at the moment, but this seems to indicate that Carle isn't as great at moving the puck up ice as people claim. I remember seeing him and Grossmann stuck in their end of the ice a lot, and these numbers could confirm that...though more of that blame would lie with Grossmann, it's not like Carle was helping matters a whole lot.

Pronger looks like he was definitely best in those categories, with Timonen in second...which confirms what we already knew. So if people are saying that we should keep Carle because otherwise we wouldn't have anybody to move the puck up, I hesitate to accept that. It seems like Carle is average compared to his teammates in that regard.

Don't anybody take that as gospel though, I'm just throwing crap around pretty much. Like I said, don't have much free brain space to really consider it at the moment.
I think your grasping at straws here. Carle is known around the League as an exceptional puck mover. And your calling him average compared to his teammates. Your reading into that what you want to read into it.

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05-16-2012, 05:07 PM
  #218
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I think your grasping at straws here. Carle is known around the League as an exceptional puck mover. And your calling him average compared to his teammates. Your reading into that what you want to read into it.
I'm looking at the cold hard stats. The team finishes in their own end more often when Carle is on the ice. They finish in the offensive zone more often when Timonen, Mez, and Coburn are on the ice. That's just how it was.

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05-16-2012, 05:08 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
I have watched Carle every single shift as a Flyer, he can go make whatever the **** he wants somewhere else. He is our 5th best D man and should be paid accordingly by what will make the Flyers a better team to win a cup, Carle at 5 mill does nothing to help with that goal.
That might be part of the problem. Everything Carle does gets hyper analyzed and even though he does make some pretty glaring turnover mistakes I think his puck movement and overall defensive skills make up for them.

And honestly I think the fact that Carle is a known commodity makes me feel better about signing him, a "the grass is always greener on the other side" kind of thing. Despite how the signing looks in hindsight, Bryzgalov was supposed to solve our goaltending problems because he showed he can carry a team out in Phoenix even though I doubt many people here watched every game he played or even a decent sample size of games he played because he was out West. Now it's starting to look like he might have actually been a product of Phoenix's system and that he's not the elite goaltender he was cracked up to be.

Fast forward one offseason. How do we know Ryan Suter isn't a product of the Nashville system playing with Weber and in front of Rinne? How many people have watched every single shift Suter has had as a Predator? How sure are you that he would be a substantial improvement over Carle? Not in a vacuum, but here. In Philly, with our system. Are you willing to bet a Bryzgalov-like contract on it?

Carle is not a franchise d-man, but he's a solid top 4 guy. So if he can be signed at 4.5 to 5 mill I would be ok with that. Because that is what serviceable top 4 guys make and we know what Carle is and what he can and can't do. Suter WILL be paid like a franchise d-man. Will he play like one in Philadelphia? Maybe. Maybe not.

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05-16-2012, 05:12 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm looking at the cold hard stats. The team finishes in their own end more often when Carle is on the ice. They finish in the offensive zone more often when Timonen, Mez, and Coburn are on the ice. That's just how it was.


Nothing wrong with the stats. It's the conclusion your drawing from it that is the problem. Post a link to those stats.


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That might be part of the problem. Everything Carle does gets hyper analyzed and even though he does make some pretty glaring turnover mistakes I think his puck movement and overall defensive skills make up for them.

And honestly I think the fact that Carle is a known commodity makes me feel better about signing him, a "the grass is always greener on the other side" kind of thing. Despite how the signing looks in hindsight, Bryzgalov was supposed to solve our goaltending problems because he showed he can carry a team out in Phoenix even though I doubt many people here watched every game he played or even a decent sample size of games he played because he was out West. Now it's starting to look like he might have actually been a product of Phoenix's system and that he's not the elite goaltender he was cracked up to be.

Fast forward one offseason. How do we know Ryan Suter isn't a product of the Nashville system playing with Weber and in front of Rinne? How many people have watched every single shift Suter has had as a Predator? How sure are you that he would be a substantial improvement over Carle? Not in a vacuum, but here. In Philly, with our system. Are you willing to bet a Bryzgalov-like contract on it?

Carle is not a franchise d-man, but he's a solid top 4 guy. So if he can be signed at 4.5 to 5 mill I would be ok with that. Because that is what serviceable top 4 guys make and we know what Carle is and what he can and can't do. Suter WILL be paid like a franchise d-man. Will he play like one in Philadelphia? Maybe. Maybe not.
Good points.

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05-16-2012, 05:12 PM
  #221
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Nothing wrong with the stats. It's the conclusion your drawing from it that is the problem. Post a link to those stats.




Good points.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

There isn't really any other way to read them. I'm not doing a lot of bending and twisting here. I'm stating it exactly as it is.

When Carle is on the ice, one thing happens more, one thing happens less. That's all I pointed out. These stats indicate that when Carle is on the ice, the puck isn't getting to the other team's zone as often as when other defenders are on the ice.

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05-16-2012, 05:19 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

There isn't really any other way to read them. I'm not doing a lot of bending and twisting here. I'm stating it exactly as it is.

When Carle is on the ice, one thing happens more, one thing happens less. That's all I pointed out. These stats indicate that when Carle is on the ice, the puck isn't getting to the other team's zone as often as when other defenders are on the ice.
Your right that is all you pointed out. But with your negative bias towards Carle, you took that it means that Carle is an average puck mover, compared to his teammates. When your dealing with a percentage point or two difference between players. It's pretty well known that puck moving is a strength of Carle's and he's pretty good at it.

Flyers should of kept Kevin Marshall.


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05-16-2012, 05:22 PM
  #223
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http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66#

There isn't really any other way to read them. I'm not doing a lot of bending and twisting here. I'm stating it exactly as it is.

When Carle is on the ice, one thing happens more, one thing happens less. That's all I pointed out. These stats indicate that when Carle is on the ice, the puck isn't getting to the other team's zone as often as when other defenders are on the ice.
Interesting. Maybe it's partially due to the turnovers and breakout passes that miss and result in icing? Not that that's a very good excuse but those are the type of zone clearing plays that have a lower % than just chipping it out but they also have a better chance of turning into transition offense. That's the thing with Carle, got to take the good with the bad.

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05-16-2012, 05:40 PM
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Interesting. Maybe it's partially due to the turnovers and breakout passes that miss and result in icing? Not that that's a very good excuse but those are the type of zone clearing plays that have a lower % than just chipping it out but they also have a better chance of turning into transition offense. That's the thing with Carle, got to take the good with the bad.
I'm sure that those stats are affected by bringing the puck into the zone, only to have some ignoramus screw it up. But I imagine that would affect every defenseman nearly equally...and if that sort of thing is happening more often to certain defensemen, I'd start to think that something is wrong with them (for not keeping it in the zone, or something). If there's a metric that measures that, I haven't found it.

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05-16-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm sure that those stats are affected by bringing the puck into the zone, only to have some ignoramus screw it up. But I imagine that would affect every defenseman nearly equally...and if that sort of thing is happening more often to certain defensemen, I'd start to think that something is wrong with them. If there's a metric that measures that, I haven't found it.
Comparing two players with similar amounts of shifts. Carle and Coburn. Carle finished in the def zone 8 more times then Coburn did over the course of the Season. So that makes Coburn a better puck mover then Carle?

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