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Flames Rebuild

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Old
05-16-2012, 11:44 AM
  #401
416Leafer
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Ugh. Flames fans, you can't just throw out names. Just because you say "oh we have Butler", why does that matter? Every single team has a Butler. Good for you! You have a semi-young bottom pairing/borderline top 4 defenceman!

Where is your Karlsson? Where is your Spezza? Your Lehner/Bishop?

2-3 years from now, who's going to be your #1 Centre, #1 D, and #1 Goalie? Baertschi is the only prospect or young player currently on your team that looks like he has a lot of potential, and he's a winger. Do you expect him to do a BETTER job than Iginla? Iginla was one of the leagues top players for 10 years. Baertschi is your future replacement for Iginla, but he's probably not even as good as him. So if anything, you can expect to be worse than you are currently.

Bouwmeester? Giordano? So what? You're naming #2-4 defencemen. You don't have a current franchise D (such as Chara/Weber/Suter/Keith/etc) and you don't have any young D with that potential (such as Doughty/Pietrangelo/OEL/Karlsson/Myers/etc).

Your top centre prospect or young player is what? Backlund? Do you really think Backlund is going to be a franchise Centre?

Irving as a goalie? I'm not a Sens fan, but given the choice between Irving, Bishop, and Lehner, I would lean towards either of the Sens goalies. And THEY are not even guaranteed to be #1 NHL goalies. Irving isn't a standout goalie prospect, he's not a Rask, Schneider, Bernier, Markstrom, etc type of prospect.

You just name off prospects like Byron, Reinhart, Nemisz, Brodie, etc, like they're these can't miss prospects. News flash, every team makes draft picks every year, these guys are not as good as or better than the top prospects for other teams. Some or most will probably be NHLers, but they aren't projected to be top line guys, let alone franchise guys. Do you really think Brodie is the same thing as having a Karlsson?

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05-16-2012, 11:53 AM
  #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Ugh. Flames fans, you can't just throw out names. Just because you say "oh we have Butler", why does that matter? Every single team has a Butler. Good for you! You have a semi-young bottom pairing/borderline top 4 defenceman!

Where is your Karlsson? Where is your Spezza? Your Lehner/Bishop?

2-3 years from now, who's going to be your #1 Centre, #1 D, and #1 Goalie? Baertschi is the only prospect or young player currently on your team that looks like he has a lot of potential, and he's a winger. Do you expect him to do a BETTER job than Iginla? Iginla was one of the leagues top players for 10 years. Baertschi is your future replacement for Iginla, but he's probably not even as good as him. So if anything, you can expect to be worse than you are currently.

Bouwmeester? Giordano? So what? You're naming #2-4 defencemen. You don't have a current franchise D (such as Chara/Weber/Suter/Keith/etc) and you don't have any young D with that potential (such as Doughty/Pietrangelo/OEL/Karlsson/Myers/etc).

Your top centre prospect or young player is what? Backlund? Do you really think Backlund is going to be a franchise Centre?

Irving as a goalie? I'm not a Sens fan, but given the choice between Irving, Bishop, and Lehner, I would lean towards either of the Sens goalies. And THEY are not even guaranteed to be #1 NHL goalies. Irving isn't a standout goalie prospect, he's not a Rask, Schneider, Bernier, Markstrom, etc type of prospect.

You just name off prospects like Byron, Reinhart, Nemisz, Brodie, etc, like they're these can't miss prospects. News flash, every team makes draft picks every year, these guys are not as good as or better than the top prospects for other teams. Some or most will probably be NHLers, but they aren't projected to be top line guys, let alone franchise guys. Do you really think Brodie is the same thing as having a Karlsson?
What is your point? If we sell off everything we have, we are not guaranteed anything. CGY is also not a hotspot for FA signings. All we can do is continue to draft really well, which Feaster did his first go around. It was an unreal draft for him at this point.

You have no clue about Irving obviously. The kid has been one of the top goalies in the AHL over the past two seasons. When he played in the NHL he looked really solid. You are also missing Ramo on your list, he has expressed tons of interest in coming over to CGY. He's the best goalies in the KHL. Brossiot is tearing up the dub with his play. Plus Kipper is still one of the best in the NHL and he has not regressed at all.

We don't have a franchise dman, but Gio and Bouw are both really solid and still young.

You listed Backlund at C, but completly ignore Cervenka, who could be solid for us and is still quite young.

You can remian competitive and rebuild at the same time. You have less chances for success with your young guys simply because there is less of them. But, with what Feaster has been doing since he came here, most fans are quite happy with our improving prospect pool.

I have a feeling one of Iginla or Kipper is gone this offseason, so we will likely acquire more young assets that way.

THE SKY IS FALLING! Yet the offseason has not even begun...hmmmmm...Toronto fans


Last edited by The Gnome: 05-16-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 12:00 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Slight differences:
- Spezza is a year younger than Cammalleri and has five 70+ point seasons to Cammalleri's two.
- Michalek is two years younger than Glencross and just put up his fourth 55+ point season. Glencross' career high is 48.
- Karlsson is 7 years younger than Giordano and has already surpassed Giordano's best offensive seasons twice.

In every case here, the Ottawa Senator is younger and should occupy a higher role on the charts that I've posted.
You're just comparing random players on each team and picking random stats to compare them with. And even if those 3 playes are comparable...who cares. You have to look at the team as a whole.

Calgary gave up fewer goals than Ott and only finished 2 points back despite many injuries. You also have to look at whether guys like Spezza (tied career high in goals), Karlsson, Michalek, etc.. are capable of repeating their career years. You can't rely on your team as a whole to have career years every year.

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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
- Ottawa hasn't burned draft picks the way that Calgary has and was even able to pick 3 times in the 1st round last season without trading Alfredsson. IMO, Calgary doesn't have the luxury of deciding to keep Iginla and contend later. This is an either/or decision that will decide the fate of the franchise, as will the decision on Kipper. You can't win with them and you desperately need the youth that could be acquired for them.
Yes you had 3 first round draft pics, but the picks the Flames picked far exceeded their standings. Meanwhile Puempel (Ott's 24th overall pick) appears to have taken a step back.

Baertschi took a huge step forward and is now a better prospect than Zibanejad. In fact Zibanejad had a very lackluster year and put up worse numbers than Mikael Backlund did at his age.

Holland and Ferland also took huge steps forward. The Flames have 3 players in the top 10 in scoring the WHL from the last 2 years of drafting.

The truth is the Flames drafting through the last 2 years has been incredible. I really don't see the need to blow it up if we can keep drafting the way we have been.

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05-16-2012, 12:06 PM
  #404
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You're just comparing random players on each team and picking random stats to compare them with. And even if those 3 playes are comparable...who cares. You have to look at the team as a whole.
The problem for the Flames is not that they don't have good players it's that their key players are declining assets given their age. Kipper and Iginla are the key pieces to the team and they can be expected to eventually take a step back in a couple of years.
The prospect pool is better than it was but it is still in the bottom third of the league. It's fine to say that they have a few good prospects but the problem is that so does every team and some have much higher end prospects.
The team is in a tough spot as it's not bad enough to get a good pick but it's not good enough to be a contender.

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05-16-2012, 12:13 PM
  #405
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What is your point? If we sell off everything we have, we are not guaranteed anything. CGY is also not a hotspot for FA signings. All we can do is continue to draft really well, which Feaster did his first go around. It was an unreal draft for him at this point.

You have no clue about Irving obviously. The kid has been one of the top goalies in the AHL over the past two seasons. When he played in the NHL he looked really solid. You are also missing Ramo on your list, he has expressed tons of interest in coming over to CGY. He's the best goalies in the KHL. Brossiot is tearing up the dub with his play. Plus Kipper is still one of the best in the NHL and he has not regressed at all.

We don't have a franchise dman, but Gio and Bouw are both really solid and still young.

You listed Backlund at C, but completly ignore Cervenka, who could be solid for us and is still quite young.

You can remian competitive and rebuild at the same time. You have less chances for success with your young guys simply because there is less of them. But, with what Feaster has been doing since he came here, most fans are quite happy with our improving prospect pool.

I have a feeling one of Iginla or Kipper is gone this offseason, so we will likely acquire more young assets that way.

THE SKY IS FALLING! Yet the offseason has not even begun...hmmmmm...Toronto fans
Scrivens has been one of the AHLs top goalies, does that mean I think Scrivens is going to be a franchise goalie?

And all you can say about Giordano/Bouwmeester/Backlund/Cervenka is that they're "solid". I never said they weren't, I just said they aren't franchise players. Which isn't wrong. How many teams win the Cup without franchise players?

Did you not like the Niewendyuk for Iginla trade? Was the Clark for Sundin trade bad for Toronto? How much less competitive would Calgary have been if they never got Iginla and same for Toronto with Sundin? Trading Iginla now, when you're not competitive, and aren't projected to be competitive for a number of years, could get you a package of solid pieces, or even one really solid young piece that could turn into your future franchise player. I don't see why so many flames fans are against this concept, especially when that's how they got Iginla in the first place.

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05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Scrivens has been one of the AHLs top goalies, does that mean I think Scrivens is going to be a franchise goalie?

And all you can say about Giordano/Bouwmeester/Backlund/Cervenka is that they're "solid". I never said they weren't, I just said they aren't franchise players. Which isn't wrong. How many teams win the Cup without franchise players?

Did you not like the Niewendyuk for Iginla trade? Was the Clark for Sundin trade bad for Toronto? How much less competitive would Calgary have been if they never got Iginla and same for Toronto with Sundin? Trading Iginla now, when you're not competitive, and aren't projected to be competitive for a number of years, could get you a package of solid pieces, or even one really solid young piece that could turn into your future franchise player. I don't see why so many flames fans are against this concept, especially when that's how they got Iginla in the first place.
In what way is the Niewendyuk trade comparable? Niewendyk was traded at the age of 29, because he was a holdout. And when Iginla was acquired, he was not considered to be a top prospect. He just happened to get really good starting in the 1995/1996 season.

All that happened with Calgary in the Niewendyuk trade was that Calgary got extremely lucky in a crappy situation. What are the odds of lightning striking twice? For every trade like the Niewendyuk one, I could list 50 where the team in Calgary's situation did not receive a player of Iginla's calibre.

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05-16-2012, 12:24 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Scrivens has been one of the AHLs top goalies, does that mean I think Scrivens is going to be a franchise goalie?

And all you can say about Giordano/Bouwmeester/Backlund/Cervenka is that they're "solid". I never said they weren't, I just said they aren't franchise players. Which isn't wrong. How many teams win the Cup without franchise players?

Did you not like the Niewendyuk for Iginla trade? Was the Clark for Sundin trade bad for Toronto? How much less competitive would Calgary have been if they never got Iginla and same for Toronto with Sundin? Trading Iginla now, when you're not competitive, and aren't projected to be competitive for a number of years, could get you a package of solid pieces, or even one really solid young piece that could turn into your future franchise player. I don't see why so many flames fans are against this concept, especially when that's how they got Iginla in the first place.
Nobody is against trading Iginla, if the right package comes along, then great. The point is that selling him for B prosepcts is pointless. We can keep him, and still get a few solid productive years out of him and draft well at the same time.

Regardless, you are still ******** on flames management and the fans, when the offseason has not even started yet. There will be more changes, that I can guarantee.

But trading every single aging vet we have is not the only way to go. People completly underate our young guys, and write them off of the potential franchise player list before they are even out of their teens. Franchise players can come out of nowhere, only time will tell what we have.

I never guaranteed any of those 3 I mentioned were going to be franchise goalies. That is the whole point of potential, nobody knows. Did the Sens know Karlsson was going to be top 10 in scoring? No! Give your head a shake man.

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05-16-2012, 12:31 PM
  #408
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It's pretty simple really, the Flames will have to get more prospects and hope more of them will turn into real players who can help the team long term. They can try free agency to get some players and Cervenka could help if he turns out but most likely what it means is they will start a rebuild. I doubt they trade Iginla or Kipper this offseason, it's possible but it's pretty hard to work out deals especially with the CBA up in the air.

My bet is they get one more kick at the can with the vets and if they're in a playoff spot by the trade deadline they go for it, most likely they're not and the big sell off begins. Should be a quiet summer in Calgary.

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05-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #409
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My bet is they get one more kick at the can with the vets and if they're in a playoff spot by the trade deadline they go for it, most likely they're not and the big sell off begins. Should be a quiet summer in Calgary.
I don't disagree that they will look to selling off Kipper and Iggy if they are out of the playoffs at the deadline. Both are upcomming UFAs.

However, Calgary will still make a play for each and every top end FA that becomes available both this season and next. Things may be quiet in the sense that they don't actually acquire anyone, but the head office in Calgary will have a very busy offseason.

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05-16-2012, 01:02 PM
  #410
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Not too sure why so many people are insistent on comparing these two teams. We're in different situations and naturally should act as such.
Fact, the Flames don't have as much talent prospect wise, or even a Spezza/Karlsson. Then again, how many teams have that latter combo?

So while we're both Canadian teams who had a bad year last year, what is it that the Flames should looking to take from the Sens as a lesson?
To me, just get more prospects and compete because you never really know what happens.
And I'm alright with what Feaster's doing so far given the kind of situation we were in 2 years ago.

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05-16-2012, 01:28 PM
  #411
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I know everyone writing on this thread is trying to find a way to improve the Flames. There are some things you need to consider before making any trade suggestions

1. What style of hockey will work in Calgary. Defense first team or offense first team.

2. Once you have decided on the style you feel works in Calgary you have to find a coach who can get Calgary playing that style of hockey

3. Before trading Kipper who will realistically replace him. Flames would want a younger goalie. Karri Ramo who is currently in the KHL we are not sure if he will leave the KHL when the start of the NHL season comes as he still has one year left on his KHL contract.

4. Before we trade Iginla who is going to replace his leadership and goal scoring. On a bad year Iginla can score 30+ goals. We should not waste trading him if we end up with a deal like we got for Phaneuf.

5. We have some UFA who do we re-sign and if we do not resign who can we realistically replace them with.

6. At the draft should we be looking at drafting some European players as the last 10 years most of roster has been North American players.

7. Can we afford to lose some of our good players to get some elite talent such as Semin.

8.Every teams on their main roster has injury problems. Does Calgary have the extra player in the minors to help out lets say if Cammy or Tanguay get injured if not can we afford to get the players who can replace our top players during injury.

9. Should we re-tool or rebuild. if re-tool who should we keep and who should we trade not trade someone like Gio who has played very well for us just to get a player you like such as Patrick Kane or Semin. If rebuild you do not trade all your good players such as Iginla, Kipper, Jay-bo, and Gio all at the same time, you will end up making an average team worst. Rebuilding would be talking to all 29 teams and see what offers you get and if a good offer comes take it. Do not just trade for younger players just to get younger but make trades you feel will in the long term help the team. Please try to keep as many draft picks as you can.

When you take 9 steps I have written into consideration then you can decide what would best work to help the Flames become a better team.

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05-16-2012, 01:48 PM
  #412
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Sorry to drag up old stuff, but there is no question that Kipper has been our best player since arriving to Calgary. I don't care about stats, I care more about play. His save % has nothing to do with a brutal defence that was playing in front of him eh?

Kipper was not losing us games, if anything he was the main reason that we were in games most nights. In Regehr's last season, he simply wasn't very good and him and Bouw were just not a good pairing. They had a ton of mis-communication in their own end, couldn't clear the puck in front of the net, and were constantly losing battles in their own end. When your top pairing that is going up the opposing teams best players every night is playing like crap, I don't really blame the goaltender for having a poor save %. Did he let in some soft goals, sure, but I don't blame him for being hung out to dry by his teammates.

IMO, overall he was still our best player that season because his presence gave us a chance to win almost every night, and don't forget that Kipper is among the best at making saves when they matter. The fact that we just missed out on the playoffs shows that.

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05-16-2012, 02:46 PM
  #413
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Yes you had 3 first round draft pics, but the picks the Flames picked far exceeded their standings. Meanwhile Puempel (Ott's 24th overall pick) appears to have taken a step back.

Baertschi took a huge step forward and is now a better prospect than Zibanejad. In fact Zibanejad had a very lackluster year and put up worse numbers than Mikael Backlund did at his age.

Holland and Ferland also took huge steps forward. The Flames have 3 players in the top 10 in scoring the WHL from the last 2 years of drafting.

The truth is the Flames drafting through the last 2 years has been incredible. I really don't see the need to blow it up if we can keep drafting the way we have been.
If you're referring to Patrick Holland, he's habs property now.

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05-16-2012, 03:29 PM
  #414
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Oilers and Leafs fans aren't really in any position to tell us how to be a successful franchise.

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05-16-2012, 04:24 PM
  #415
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If you're referring to Patrick Holland, he's habs property now.
You are correct. Always forget we gave him up for Cammy and Ramo.

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05-16-2012, 04:40 PM
  #416
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Oilers and Leafs fans aren't really in any position to tell us how to be a successful franchise.
Stop baiting. This isn't cp. An Oilers fan hasn't even posted for the last few pages.

And 416Leafer is spot on.

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05-16-2012, 05:43 PM
  #417
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The problem with this site is people have it in their heads that you need to be a bottom feeder to be rebuilding.

Why can't a team push for the playoffs (even if they aren't successful in the push) wile rebuilding? What is good for another team isn't good for another.

If they draft well
...there is no realistic reason to believe they can't be a playoff team and still improve their future.
The Flames are now 3 seasons into middle tier purgatory, combining playoff misses with the worst possible draft picks.

They have an aging and declining core combined with one of the weaker prospect pools in the league.

The value of the player assets across the entire organization are noticeably low, such that the fans of other teams can see that you won't be contending now or later if you continue to remain in purgatory.

Your own suggestions here seem to be that Calgary is going to miraculously start beating the house at the draft with poor draft picks. As if Calgary is going to be able to rebuild around getting top-3 calibre talents between 10-15 every year. Does that sound like a plan that has a high chance of success?

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Dude ottawa had 92 points. the flanes finished witg 90 and more injuries thab any other team. how much can the sens teach to get that one extra win?

people once again making flanes out to be in far worse shape than thry actually are.
Most of Ottawa's core players are much younger than Calgary's core. The Flames could have made the playoffs this season in 16th place, the Sens could have missed the playoffs in 17th place and it would still be right to say that Ottawa is moving the right direction while Calgary is not.

Calgary has been in purgatory for 3 years now and their 2 best players are in the twilight of their careers. There aren't many positive ways to spin that scenario.

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Tanguay(32)-Stajan-Iginla(34)
Glencross-(????)-Cammy

Bartschi-Backlund-Cervenka
I can't imagine realistic projection that could show that any group of 6 of those guys in any of the next 5 years as a contender.

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What is your point? If we sell off everything we have, we are not guaranteed anything.
No, but you'd be playing the odds.
- If you acquire more picks, you will have more chances of producing NHL'ers.
- If you draft higher, you'll draft better prospects.

Whereas, the plan of some Flames fans seems go against the odds.
- A team led by two 35 year old stars getting better to make the playoffs.
- Getting prospects who are just as good as top-3 picks between 10-15th.

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You have no clue about Irving obviously. The kid has been one of the top goalies in the AHL over the past two seasons.
Irving's 0.902 SV% was 42nd amongst the 47 qualified AHL goaltenders this season.

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You can remian competitive and rebuild at the same time. You have less chances for success with your young guys simply because there is less of them. But, with what Feaster has been doing since he came here, most fans are quite happy with our improving prospect pool.
Feaster has had 1 draft.

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You're just comparing random players on each team and picking random stats to compare them with. And even if those 3 playes are comparable...who cares. You have to look at the team as a whole.
No, I'm comparing top players under 30 years old... the important ones when considering whether to rebuild or retool.

Pick a stat that you think will be less random. They will all say that Ottawa's 3 players are much younger and more productive offensively than 3 of the Flames that you suggested that they could retool around.

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Calgary gave up fewer goals than Ott and only finished 2 points back despite many injuries. You also have to look at whether guys like Spezza (tied career high in goals), Karlsson, Michalek, etc.. are capable of repeating their career years. You can't rely on your team as a whole to have career years every year.
If Kipper, Iginla and Tanguay play better next season and the Flames finish 8th in the West... do you think that improves the future outlook of the Flames in any way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Yes you had 3 first round draft pics, but the picks the Flames picked far exceeded their standings. Meanwhile Puempel (Ott's 24th overall pick) appears to have taken a step back.

Baertschi took a huge step forward and is now a better prospect than Zibanejad. In fact Zibanejad had a very lackluster year and put up worse numbers than Mikael Backlund did at his age.
Zibanejad and Puempel had significant injuries this season. Didn't you question why they played so few games this year?

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05-16-2012, 06:21 PM
  #418
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Oilers and Leafs fans aren't really in any position to tell us how to be a successful franchise.
Post this again in 5 years when the Oilers are first in the west.

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05-16-2012, 06:22 PM
  #419
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Clearly with posts like the one above, this thread is going places.

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05-16-2012, 06:23 PM
  #420
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Clearly with posts like the one above, this thread is going places.
I know hey!

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05-16-2012, 06:33 PM
  #421
Trafalgar Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
Oilers and Leafs fans aren't really in any position to tell us how to be a successful franchise.
Leafs: 13 Cups
Oilers: 5 Cups
Flames: 1 Cup

The Oilers and Leafs are trending upwards and have solid young cores, and will only improve them with high picks this year. Calgary is stuck in the position the Leafs and Oilers were in from 2005-2008, not good enough to be a contender, but not bad enough to get a lottery pick. Sure, you can get lucky and nab a Sven Bartschi, but the Oilers nabbed Jordan Eberle and their retooling came to a crashing halt at the end anyways. The fact is, the Flames of now were the Leafs/Oilers of a few years ago, and we've all seen the situation play out. As an Oilers fan, I'm kind of hoping the Flames deal their 2014/2015 first round picks, because 2013 is the year Iginla's contract expires, and 2014 the year Kipper's contract expires. The team will be headed towards some very dark times these two years, and it would be hilarious for them to not get Aaron Ekblad and Connor McDavid out of it.

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05-16-2012, 06:35 PM
  #422
nogger
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You should have put the cup comparison at the end of your post, that way I wouldn't of skipped your paragraph.

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05-16-2012, 06:37 PM
  #423
Trafalgar Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nogger View Post
You should have put the cup comparison at the end of your post, that way I wouldn't of skipped your paragraph.
The cup comparison was just a cheapshot to the Flames, much like how glados' comment was a cheapshot to the Oilers/Leafs.

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05-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
The Flames are now 3 seasons into middle tier purgatory, combining playoff misses with the worst possible draft picks.

They have an aging and declining core combined with one of the weaker prospect pools in the league.

The value of the player assets across the entire organization are noticeably low, such that the fans of other teams can see that you won't be contending now or later if you continue to remain in purgatory.

Your own suggestions here seem to be that Calgary is going to miraculously start beating the house at the draft with poor draft picks. As if Calgary is going to be able to rebuild around getting top-3 calibre talents between 10-15 every year. Does that sound like a plan that has a high chance of success?
yes i get it, you think the flames are in a freefall and there is no way out unless they bottom out. good for you. i think making moves to intentionally make your team worse is pathetic and has no part in the game. i think trying to win is a sign of integrity

and has drafting in the later middle of the 1st round hurt the Predators drafting? they are still one of the top prospect pools in the NHL.

but i have seen you post the same crap as everyone else in every flames thread so i don't even know why i am responding because you have firmly bought into the groupthink that is prominent on HF

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Old
05-16-2012, 07:58 PM
  #425
rockinghockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny Mcdonald View Post
Whole-sale Rebuilds are a thing of the past. Retooling is all thats needed to be done.
Yes, it is working for TOR really well and will work for CAL just as well.

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