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The FAN 1200 - Pierre McGuire - 3rd overall vs J. Staal??

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Old
05-16-2012, 01:41 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's where I disagree with you, Staal is a good player but not a cornerstone player. He's been solid as a #2 the last 2 years, but still didn't face the opposition's top checking lines and shutdown pairs. The extra ice time may be offset by tougher opposition.

At the end of the day there is nothing to prove Staal is any more a #1 than Desharnais or Plekanec have shown so far in their careers. Being "big" doesn't automatically make you a #1 center.
Totally agree. If Staal was 6 foot 1 no one would ever bring him up. He is NOT worth trading the 3rd overall pick for, no matter how weak people claim this draft is.

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05-16-2012, 01:59 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Totally agree. If Staal was 6 foot 1 no one would ever bring him up. He is NOT worth trading the 3rd overall pick for, no matter how weak people claim this draft is.
Plus, the weakness of the draft is at the bottom of the 1st, not the first 7-8 picks.

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05-16-2012, 02:16 PM
  #403
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So I haven't been in this thread for a while and I'm a bit surprise it's still alive.

Unless there is something I don't get?

Staal is signed for just one year and can't be re-signed until after the draft. So we'd be trading a #3 pick for a player with one year left on his contract and the Habs are obviously not going all the way next season. And some people think it's a good idea?

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05-16-2012, 03:18 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
So I haven't been in this thread for a while and I'm a bit surprise it's still alive.

Unless there is something I don't get?

Staal is signed for just one year and can't be re-signed until after the draft. So we'd be trading a #3 pick for a player with one year left on his contract and the Habs are obviously not going all the way next season. And some people think it's a good idea?
People seem to think that the Habs and Staal could come to a handshake deal and that they'd be fine with that.

I disagree about the Habs obviously not going all the way next season. People are seriously underrating what this team potentially can do next year.

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05-16-2012, 03:36 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
People seem to think that the Habs and Staal could come to a handshake deal and that they'd be fine with that.

I disagree about the Habs obviously not going all the way next season. People are seriously underrating what this team potentially can do next year.
I'm not saying that we will be at the bottom again next year, I think we're a playoff team.

I don't think however that Staal would put us over the top.

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05-16-2012, 04:42 PM
  #406
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I would LOVE Staal on The Habs, BUT not giving up the 3rd overall if he could bolt next July.

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05-16-2012, 06:34 PM
  #407
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You'd have to go all the way back to the 2002 draft for me to be certain I'd take a Jordan Staal at #3 considering who'd theoretically still be on the board. No brainer for me.

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05-16-2012, 06:52 PM
  #408
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Staal isn't worth our 3rd overall pick.

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05-16-2012, 09:00 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
So I haven't been in this thread for a while and I'm a bit surprise it's still alive.

Unless there is something I don't get?

Staal is signed for just one year and can't be re-signed until after the draft. So we'd be trading a #3 pick for a player with one year left on his contract and the Habs are obviously not going all the way next season. And some people think it's a good idea?
So you're one of those people who hasn't heard about negotiating contract extensions when acquiring impending free agents?

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05-16-2012, 09:10 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That's where I disagree with you, Staal is a good player but not a cornerstone player. He's been solid as a #2 the last 2 years, but still didn't face the opposition's top checking lines and shutdown pairs. The extra ice time may be offset by tougher opposition.

At the end of the day there is nothing to prove Staal is any more a #1 than Desharnais or Plekanec have shown so far in their careers. Being "big" doesn't automatically make you a #1 center.
Sometimes I just don't even know where to start, when it comes to your posts on this subject. Staal doesn't meet your definition of "cornerstone", so he's not worth acquiring even though he's better than any centre (possibly any player, including MaxPac) we currently have. Oka~y. Then to say he has been "solid" as a "#2" for the last 2 years, when he's in the exact same role he has been stuck in since he joined a team 6 years ago already featuring Malkin and Crosby, made the All-Rookie team 5 years ago, and already earned a defensive reputation by '08/09 leading into a top 3 Selke finish for the '90/10 season. And of course he wasn't playing against the best checkers, he has been playing against the best players in the NHL for years now.

edit: Oh, and I forgot. The Pens have been missing Malkin, Crosby, or both, at various times over the past couple of years, so Staal has faced top defenders. And you know what? His production increased to what would be a roughly 70 point pace over a full season. So, a 23 year old who is already showing the potential for 70(+?) point seasons, who has already been recognized as a Selke finalist for his defensive play... and a 3rd overall pick, who we have to assume isn't going to be Yakupov or Murray... I dunno man, it's at least a really hard decision, and relies heavily on what Timmins thinks of Gally/Grigs/Whomever.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 05-16-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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05-16-2012, 09:13 PM
  #411
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doesn't make any sense to use blanket statements as an argument against a specific move.
It's all they can do, obviously.

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05-16-2012, 09:41 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sometimes I just don't even know where to start, when it comes to your posts on this subject. Staal doesn't meet your definition of "cornerstone", so he's not worth acquiring even though he's better than any centre (possibly any player, including MaxPac) we currently have. Oka~y. Then to say he has been "solid" as a "#2" for the last 2 years, when he's in the exact same role he has been stuck in since he joined a team 6 years ago already featuring Malkin and Crosby, made the All-Rookie team 5 years ago, and already earned a defensive reputation by '08/09 leading into a top 3 Selke finish for the '90/10 season. And of course he wasn't playing against the best checkers, he has been playing against the best players in the NHL for years now.

edit: Oh, and I forgot. The Pens have been missing Malkin, Crosby, or both, at various times over the past couple of years, so Staal has faced top defenders. And you know what? His production increased to what would be a roughly 70 point pace over a full season. So, a 23 year old who is already showing the potential for 70(+?) point seasons, who has already been recognized as a Selke finalist for his defensive play... and a 3rd overall pick, who we have to assume isn't going to be Yakupov or Murray... I dunno man, it's at least a really hard decision, and relies heavily on what Timmins thinks of Gally/Grigs/Whomever.
Do you really want to do like the maple leafs? trade draft picks for nhl players ..

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05-16-2012, 09:55 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
Do you really want to do like the maple leafs? trade draft picks for nhl players ..
Do you really want to keep talking in generalities in order to avoid considering the actual details of a specific proposition? Would you at least concede that there are players in the NHL worth trading draft picks for? Maybe even players worth trading a top 3 pick for?

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05-16-2012, 09:57 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So you're one of those people who hasn't heard about negotiating contract extensions when acquiring impending free agents?
At the end of the day, come draft day they'd be trading the 3rd overall pick for a guy who can leave as a uFA next year.

You can talk about negotiating and handshake deals til you're blue in the face but it doesn't change that fact.

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05-16-2012, 10:00 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
At the end of the day, come draft day they'd be trading the 3rd overall pick for a guy who can leave as a uFA next year.

You can talk about negotiating and handshake deals til you're blue in the face but it doesn't change that fact.
If something like that scares you, well...

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05-16-2012, 10:13 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If something like that scares you, well...
If there a reasonable person who wouldn't be troubled by that?

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05-16-2012, 10:54 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
If there a reasonable person who wouldn't be troubled by that?
LoL

What an odd post hey?

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05-16-2012, 11:11 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
LoL

What an odd post hey?
Beyond odd. A large portion of this board gets apoplectic over giving a 2nd rounder for a rental...

...so third overall for what could become a rental? I'm dumbfounded.

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05-16-2012, 11:34 PM
  #419
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If there a reasonable person who wouldn't be troubled by that?
You don't trade a 3rd round pick without getting some type of assurance that Staal would be willing to re-sign. You ask for permission to speak to the Staal clan before actually making this trade to see if he's open to re-signing an extension.

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05-16-2012, 11:44 PM
  #420
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You don't trade a 3rd round pick without getting some type of assurance that Staal would be willing to re-sign. You ask for permission to speak to the Staal clan before actually making this trade to see if he's open to re-signing an extension.
That is understood. But some seem to be willing to gamble that 'once in forever' draft without an extension in place.

Frankly, even with it, I'm torn. Without, Russian Roulette with 4 bullets.

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05-16-2012, 11:52 PM
  #421
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You don't trade a 3rd round pick without getting some type of assurance that Staal would be willing to re-sign. You ask for permission to speak to the Staal clan before actually making this trade to see if he's open to re-signing an extension.
Exactly. And in the worst case scenario, he decides to play out the year and decide after the season. We'd have first crack at negotiations since he wouldn't hit the open market until July 1st, and if we put a good team together around our other 3 centres next season why wouldn't he want to stay in Montreal? No seriously, why? And why would it always make more sense to gamble on a 3rd overall pick, who would only represent a marginal cap savings, stepping in at any time in the next 2-3 years and actually being a "better" player than Staal?

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05-16-2012, 11:58 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
At the end of the day, come draft day they'd be trading the 3rd overall pick for a guy who can leave as a uFA next year.

You can talk about negotiating and handshake deals til you're blue in the face but it doesn't change that fact.
I don't know why you continue to harp on this point. It should be pretty obvious to anyone with even the faintest clue of how the league works that this trade would never be discussed let alone completed unless it was contingent on Staal signing an extension with Montreal. They would never do it for one year of Staal, that's obvious. So for you keep citing that as if it's a "negative" of the trade is a bit odd. Nobody but you seems to think that would ever happen.

If you want to shoot down this hypothetical, build in the assumption that he's extended for at least three more seasons, or Montreal simply doesn't make the trade at all.

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05-17-2012, 12:09 AM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Exactly. And in the worst case scenario, he decides to play out the year and decide after the season. We'd have first crack at negotiations since he wouldn't hit the open market until July 1st, and if we put a good team together around our other 3 centres next season why wouldn't he want to stay in Montreal? No seriously, why? And why would it always make more sense to gamble on a 3rd overall pick, who would only represent a marginal cap savings, stepping in at any time in the next 2-3 years and actually being a "better" player than Staal?
Why wouldn't someone want to sign? Maybe he won't get along with the coach. Perhaps the team has another terrible year and he is the recipient of endless boos. His girlfriend/wife are too far from their families. Ad nauseum.

Worst case scenario is actually he goes elsewhere after one season.

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05-17-2012, 12:22 AM
  #424
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Why wouldn't someone want to sign? Maybe he won't get along with the coach. Perhaps the team has another terrible year and he is the recipient of endless boos. His girlfriend/wife are too far from their families. Ad nauseum.

Worst case scenario is actually he goes elsewhere after one season.
Well, you keep worrying about all that stuff then, and all the power to you.

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05-17-2012, 12:36 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, you keep worrying about all that stuff then, and all the power to you.
I've read a lot of your posts and agree or not, they're usually sensible. This time, not so much.

A professional sports franchise has an obligation to 'worry about all that stuff'. If not, you'd say the GM was even worse than Gauthier, or Milbury.

Look, if we got Staal for THE pick, and if he agreed to extend beforehand, it's still could go either way. It is a flip. But without an extension, it's just a ridiculous move.

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