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Old
05-16-2012, 08:50 PM
  #151
northernKing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFr View Post
Nash is absolutely not worth that.

One of the most over-rated players in the game for three young players (at least two of whom are only gonna get better) who are already more than capable and have playoff experience.

If that's Nash's value, New York needs to run away. Do they want 7.8 on the books for 7 years?
Well Gaborik is off the books in two years and his goals need to be replaced. The NYR lack a pure sniper if he leaves. And IMO Nash is worth the money and brings the game breaking ability the NYR lack. Dubinsky will not be missed and Stepan reminds me of a young Reinprecht. Solid but not anything special. Yes Staal is the key but you have to give to get an elite talent like Nash

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05-16-2012, 09:15 PM
  #152
KeithBWhittington
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San Jose and Boston have to be the front runners....

Toronto is a distant third

Chances he's back with Columbus or headed to Vancouver are very small.

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05-16-2012, 09:38 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Off the top of my head; James Neal.

He is an example of a powerforward winger who put up considerably more points after getting traded.
That's actually a pretty good example, congratz. I would argue he is a young player who was on the upswing of his career so it's a little bit different than a vet player like Nash, but I digress.

Still, one does not make a trend. I said rare, not never, I could name a lot more examples of the other way:

Elite players that went from poor teams to better teams and did not see a significant statistical increase:

Brad Richards
Marion Gaborik (last healthy season)
Dany Heatley
Marian Hossa
Ilya Kovalchuck

and those are just the few I could come up with from the last few years. Now I'm not saying all of those players are equivalent to Nash ability wise, but they were all elite players that saw no significant improvement when moved to a better team.

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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post

Again, if you really don't think that had anything to do with going from a weak offensive team to a strong offensive team I don't know what to tell you.
You don't base trade value on a maybe, especially when, as I showed above, its a pretty big risk. You assume the production you will get from the player it he production he is giving his current team, otherwise you end up making some big mistakes.

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Originally Posted by 54roughing View Post
yes while every other team is focusing on Thornton and Marleau and Couture Pavelski flies under the radar

in columbus, Pavelski on our top line is lucky to score 10 goals, since he would be the focal point of all of our opponents attention

your lack of understanding is astounding. in San Jose Nash can escape constant double coverages since there are others similarly talented in hornton and Marleau and Couture

James Neal
Rick Middleton
Cam Neely
Markus Naslund
Denis Maruk
Ok first off, I've already showed several times that Pavelski saw harder competition than any of those guys. If anything he was sheltering them.

Also, I guess I should have specified this decade... jeez.

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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
I wasn't sure what you meant by that because I was talking about the Swiss league.
Semantics, nice argument. I got the country wrong, you know very well what I meant, he only played on one team in Europe with Nash.

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05-16-2012, 09:42 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernKing View Post
NYR for Dubinsky,Staal and Stepan. With Kreider ready for full time next season they have extra bodies. Also Dubinsky and Staal have been passed by Callahan and the likes of Girardi and McDonough.
That is disgusting overpayment for Nash. There is no way New York is dealing Staal, even if McDonagh is the real deal, which looks to be the case.

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05-16-2012, 09:52 PM
  #155
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HAHAHHAHA

"If anything he was sheltering them"

Oh man.

Picks and chooses what to respond to and posts massive fails like that.

Fantastic stuff all around.

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05-16-2012, 10:08 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
HAHAHHAHA

"If anything he was sheltering them"

Oh man.

Picks and chooses what to respond to and posts massive fails like that.

Fantastic stuff all around.
Any posts that starts with 'hahaha' is automatically a massive fail. I've been pretty civil through the whole debate, being rude is not helping your case.

I responded to everything you said, some of it I ignored because I already responded to it earlier and you were repeating things either you or other people had already asked and I had already answered.

Pavelski saw the opposing teams best competition, best forwards, best defensemen. You are making statements like "you don't understand how defense works do you" but then not explaining, so I see no need to respond to that, its simply an insult without any context.

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05-16-2012, 10:20 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski plays against tougher competition than all of those guys, consistently, and puts up more points (slightly) than Nash doing so at the same time as shutting down those opposing players defensively to a level Nash cannot touch. Pavelski is a selke level defensive forward and I fully expect him to be nominated for one at some point.

Pavelski produces no matter who he is paired with. Again, I point out, for all your hyperbole, Pavelski had more points than Nash when he played on the 3rd line with the likes of Wellwood and Mitchell.

Nash is hugely overhyped and highly overpaid.

You can continue to hype the Nash train all you like, but it's simply not backed up by any evidence, and let me put it in bold for you since no one seems to grasp this:

JOE PAVELSKI GETS PAID HALF OF WHAT RICK NASH IS PAID.

There value is not equal, Pavelski is a superior two-way player. You talk about hits, Pavelski takes face-offs better than any top centerman int he league. He blocks more shots than Nash, he's better defensively, and he's equal offensively, whether the Nash apologists want to admit it or not.

Until Nash starts putting up 40 goal seasons again I'm not interested in him at $8m a season, sorry. Especially not at the cost of Pavelski, and bringing up Couture isn't even funny. Keep up with the insults, I'll keep up with the facts.
Im not an expert on This, but i dont think pavelski played with wellwood and Mitchell 100% of the season on the third line. I bet some of those points came from playing with the likes of thornton and marleu. Nash dont have the same oppertunity in those cases.

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05-16-2012, 10:25 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by DisneyDucky View Post
Im not an expert on This, but i dont think pavelski played with wellwood and Mitchell 100% of the season on the third line. I bet some of those points came from playing with the likes of thornton and marleu. Nash dont have the same oppertunity in those cases.
He rarely played with Thornton that season. Heatley did drop down some, and a variety of players move through that line (Eager for one) but he certainly played his best hockey that season with Wellwood and Mitchell.

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05-16-2012, 10:27 PM
  #159
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If your argument held water then I could make an argument that you should keep Nash and we should trade you Thornton, but you have to give us a return equivalent with his 100+ point seasons, because with Nash he could return to that.

You see my point? You can't base value like that. Thornton is worth what Thornton is producing now, as is Nash. The quality of his team-mates has very little bearing on that.

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Old
05-17-2012, 12:36 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Any posts that starts with 'hahaha' is automatically a massive fail. I've been pretty civil through the whole debate, being rude is not helping your case.

I responded to everything you said, some of it I ignored because I already responded to it earlier and you were repeating things either you or other people had already asked and I had already answered.

Pavelski saw the opposing teams best competition, best forwards, best defensemen. You are making statements like "you don't understand how defense works do you" but then not explaining, so I see no need to respond to that, its simply an insult without any context.
The only thing that was a massive fail here was you implying that it was Pavelski who drove the line and that the other players were fortunate to be playing with him.

You didn't respond to everything I said either, you picked one sentence. Don't lie, the evidence is there for everyone to see, it's embarrassing.

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Old
05-17-2012, 06:48 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That is disgusting overpayment for Nash. There is no way New York is dealing Staal, even if McDonagh is the real deal, which looks to be the case.
Well I do agree Staal is the main piece of the package but Dubinsky is pretty much a salary dump so the NYR would need to entice the Blue jackets with some value

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05-17-2012, 08:19 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernKing View Post
Well I do agree Staal is the main piece of the package but Dubinsky is pretty much a salary dump so the NYR would need to entice the Blue jackets with some value
One below average season doesn't make someone a salary dump.

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05-17-2012, 08:31 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
One below average season doesn't make someone a salary dump.
No, the fact that Antoine Vermette was regularly outperforming Dubinsky and we dumped him for draft picks at the deadline is what makes him a salary dump.

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05-17-2012, 08:58 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
The only thing that was a massive fail here was you implying that it was Pavelski who drove the line and that the other players were fortunate to be playing with him.

You didn't respond to everything I said either, you picked one sentence. Don't lie, the evidence is there for everyone to see, it's embarrassing.
You are correct, Mitchell and Wellwood were the catalysts of that line, Pavelski just tagged along....

I'm done with this conversation, I have not insulted you once, you can't seem to stop, so enough.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:01 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northernKing View Post
NYR for Dubinsky,Staal and Stepan. With Kreider ready for full time next season they have extra bodies. Also Dubinsky and Staal have been passed by Callahan and the likes of Girardi and McDonough.
The bolded in my opinion would be the dealbreaker from the Rangers point of view. If i was a Rangers fan, i'd be pissed if this deal went through.

And frankly, is Nash really a necessity for the Rangers? it just seems like luxury to me.

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05-17-2012, 09:03 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
San Jose and Boston have to be the front runners....

Toronto is a distant third
Chances he's back with Columbus or headed to Vancouver are very small.
I hope we stay as distant as possible.

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05-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
No, the fact that Antoine Vermette was regularly outperforming Dubinsky and we dumped him for draft picks at the deadline is what makes him a salary dump.
I'm a little stumped here. Are you saying Dubinsky is in fact a salary dump, just because you traded away Vermette?

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05-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #168
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I wonder if Nash will change the names on his list of teams to which he will accept a trade?
Does he really want to play for Torts and have to block 5 shots a game or risk being parked on the bench like Gaborik was last nite?
I'm pretty sure he does want to move to the Eastern conference to have far less travel.

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05-17-2012, 10:21 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by TheSilencer View Post
I hope we stay as distant as possible.
I think if Toronto is given a "last chance" to sweeten the pot, watch out.... He still may end up there.

FWIW: Nash wasn't mentioned by anyone at the Presser announcing Richards as the full time coach, when the topic of the team's leadership came up, Nash wasn't mentioned once. Johnson, Umberger, Prospal and Wiz all were. Someone on the CBJ board mentioned to a few weeks ago that the team really seems to be phasing Nash out of promotions as well. The recent podcast by both the Former and Current Jackets beat writers yesterday basically put the odds he's back at less than 5 percent.

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05-17-2012, 10:38 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a little stumped here. Are you saying Dubinsky is in fact a salary dump, just because you traded away Vermette?
I'm saying we had the option to do better with that money by staying put.

Dubinsky isn't exactly a worthwhile piece over here.

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05-17-2012, 10:56 AM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You are correct, Mitchell and Wellwood were the catalysts of that line, Pavelski just tagged along....

I'm done with this conversation, I have not insulted you once, you can't seem to stop, so enough.
Stop being a wolf in sheeps clothing. You've been dismissive and arrogant of others opinions this entire time.

Also, Pavelski didn't play with Mitchell and Wellwood for the majority of the season, stop making things up to try to prove your incorrect point.

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05-17-2012, 11:16 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Stop being a wolf in sheeps clothing. You've been dismissive and arrogant of others opinions this entire time.

Also, Pavelski didn't play with Mitchell and Wellwood for the majority of the season, stop making things up to try to prove your incorrect point.
I never directly insulted anyone, I made my points and I did so in a respectful manner.

The problem with your second statement is it is easily fact checked:

KYLE WELLWOOD JOE PAVELSKI TORREY MITCHELL 5.33%
RYANE CLOWE LOGAN COUTURE BENN FERRIERO 4.57%
RYANE CLOWE JOE PAVELSKI LOGAN COUTURE 2.7%
RYANE CLOWE JOE PAVELSKI DEVIN SETOGUCHI 2.26%
JAMIE MCGINN JOE PAVELSKI DEVIN SETOGUCHI 1.68%
JAMIE MCGINN JOE PAVELSKI TORREY MITCHELL 1.38%
DANY HEATLEY JOE PAVELSKI TORREY MITCHELL 1.18%
JOE THORNTON JOE PAVELSKI PATRICK MARLEAU 1.14%

He in fact played with Wellwood and Mitchell more than any other players, and only played with Thornton/Marleau 1.14% of the time. It was also the third most stable line on the team, the only two above it were:

DEVIN SETOGUCHI PATRICK MARLEAU JOE THORNTON 9.3%
DANY HEATLEY PATRICK MARLEAU JOE THORNTON 7.11%

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05-17-2012, 11:19 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I'm saying we had the option to do better with that money by staying put.

Dubinsky isn't exactly a worthwhile piece over here.
Gotcha.

Well, we'll agree to disagree on those points. I'm pretty sure the Nash to NY bridge was burned at the trade deadline, so I'm not all that eager to get into it again.

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05-17-2012, 11:30 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Semantics, nice argument. I got the country wrong, you know very well what I meant, he only played on one team in Europe with Nash.
Hardly semantics. There weren't exactly context clues to fill me in, as I wouldn't expect someone to downplay an entire season playing together. I had assumed that there was an IIHF tournament (which I never follow) in Sweden in which they played together.

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05-17-2012, 11:37 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Hardly semantics. There weren't exactly context clues to fill me in, as I wouldn't expect someone to downplay an entire season playing together. I had assumed that there was an IIHF tournament (which I never follow) in Sweden in which they played together.
They played together during the lockout, which was an entirely different Joe Thornton. Plus, they were playing against weaker competition. There is no telling after this long, and in the NHL, how much chemistry they would have. That was my point, I simply misstyped the name of the country.

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