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Desharnais, a really good 2nd line center?

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Old
05-16-2012, 08:56 PM
  #76
FlyingKostitsyn
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Originally Posted by NewEraGM View Post
By no means is here yet a 2C.
I think ''2nd line C'' is an overrated position. Desharnais produced like a lower tier first line center last year.

People usually imagine 1st line centers being point per game players and 2nd line centers putting up 60+ points but that is very rare except on some championship teams. Look at other team's rosters, Desharnais would be the second line C on many of them and he even outscores quite a few 1st liners! I'm not even talking about bottom feeders like the Habs.

Rangers - arguable as 2nd C. he outscored Stepan&almost as many points as Brad Richards

Devils - outscored all their centers.

Phoenix - they'd really like to have a center like Desharnais. Between Hanzal and Langkow... They now rely on Vermette.

LAK - no argument there with Carter, Richards and Kopitar. Desharnais would still be 2nd center going only with points.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 05-16-2012 at 09:02 PM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 11:00 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I'd choose him over Desharnais. That's the answer you deserve.
Is that because you couldn't answer the question legitimately without making your own question seem silly?

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05-17-2012, 04:39 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think ''2nd line C'' is an overrated position. Desharnais produced like a lower tier first line center last year.

People usually imagine 1st line centers being point per game players and 2nd line centers putting up 60+ points but that is very rare except on some championship teams. Look at other team's rosters, Desharnais would be the second line C on many of them and he even outscores quite a few 1st liners! I'm not even talking about bottom feeders like the Habs.

Rangers - arguable as 2nd C. he outscored Stepan&almost as many points as Brad Richards

Devils - outscored all their centers.

Phoenix - they'd really like to have a center like Desharnais. Between Hanzal and Langkow... They now rely on Vermette.

LAK - no argument there with Carter, Richards and Kopitar. Desharnais would still be 2nd center going only with points.
good points. although last year could very well have been a career year and he'll never produce close to this again.

i don't think so, but im anxiously waiting to see what he does this year with people other than the awesome americans. say, can he bring bourque out of his pit of sucktitude?

the bolded is what really, really kills me. when this misconception that "you have to be a PPG or close to it to be considered a first-line player" dies, is the day HF and the world will be a better place. 10 players last season were point per game and only 21 pointed above 70. wanna talk about centers? only 9 centermen pointed 70 or above.

60+ points IS a first line player.

i know at this point it's mostly a matter of semantics, but i'd consider those nine to be elite centermen.

fun fact: the habs had two centermen in the top 30 in points. eat your heart out.


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 05-17-2012 at 05:48 AM. Reason: mai inglich sukx
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Old
05-17-2012, 08:44 AM
  #79
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DD has the vision of Wayne

Hands like Datsyuk's

Heart like Gionta's


I was sarcastic about the Datsyuk part but everything else is true. The guy has IMO one of the best visions in the NHL. His hockey IQ is ELITE!

I was the biggest DD hater in the beginning of last season, but I ended up eating multiple dishes of crow. I tried it all man; curry crow, teriyaki crow, crow sushi and even shish tawouk crow sandwich (with garlic sauce of course)

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05-17-2012, 08:56 AM
  #80
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Without a doubt, I was not on the bandwagon when he came on board.

I thought there is no way this team needs another undersized Center, with Plek and Gomez on the roster.

But as the year went by, you would have to be a stubborn fool to not admit that he has produced, and competed well. He earned his spot.

I would NEVER build a team with more than one small center, and more than 2 small forwards in the top nine. Durability, whether we like it or not, is a very important factor in the building of a team that will play deep into the playoffs.

These guys take a pounding. They have to make it back for the next game.

Kudos to DD. Not my choice, by he did what players need to do, he played hard and consistent. He forced the coaches to give him a spot on the top two lines. That is a hell of lot more than we can say for many players who's fans cried "he never got a fair chance".

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05-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #81
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It's hard not to have doubts about DD because of his size. I keep wondering myself if he can keep doing it, etc... but history in his case shows that he's likely just going to be better next year. The guy is damn good.

I think personally that the best case scenario for him is to be a 2nd line center in a team with a solid 2-way 3rd line center that can take more difficult defensive assignments. I think that while DD is -ok- defensively, his size means that there is some mismatches that he just won't be able to overcome against opposing big elite players. We saw a few times last year some players totally overpowering him in his zone, and it's normal.

But DD is a player that should be GREAT on the PP, and if you start him in the opposing team's zone more often than not at 5v5 and give him some wingers that can shoot (and that have enough size to give him room), he will make nearly anyone produce. The line with MaxPac and Cole was a very good mix for him in that sense, they're both big, pretty fast for their size and have pretty good shots.

I wouldn't be surprised to actually see him reach 70+ points in a season if he's well surrounded. He's one of the players that I look forward to see how he improves the most over the next few years.

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05-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
DD has the vision of Wayne

Hands like Datsyuk's

Heart like Gionta's


I was sarcastic about the Datsyuk part but everything else is true. The guy has IMO one of the best visions in the NHL. His hockey IQ is ELITE!

I was the biggest DD hater in the beginning of last season, but I ended up eating multiple dishes of crow. I tried it all man; curry crow, teriyaki crow, crow sushi and even shish tawouk crow sandwich (with garlic sauce of course)


Im not ready to quite put this guy on a pedestal quite yet, let alone mentioning him among the greats after a 60 point season. My opinion may not be the popular one, but I don't see his points skyrocketing. I see him as a decent 2nd line center who needs space to be created for him to do his thing.

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05-17-2012, 09:50 AM
  #83
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Thing is, about people saying he leeches of Cole and Pac, you do realise he leverages their skill and playstyle to very effective levels? He's always in their trail ready to take the pass or get the rebound. He anticipates where they will be in the next 5 seconds to set them up or use their position as an advantage.

It's not all centers who could leverage wingers like Cole and Pac, and he does it exceptionally well. It's more than a parasitic line, it's a symbiosis. Cole produced more with Desharnais than he ever did with Eric f***ing Staal!!

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05-17-2012, 10:11 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Thing is, about people saying he leeches of Cole and Pac, you do realise he leverages their skill and playstyle to very effective levels? He's always in their trail ready to take the pass or get the rebound. He anticipates where they will be in the next 5 seconds to set them up or use their position as an advantage.

It's not all centers who could leverage wingers like Cole and Pac, and he does it exceptionally well. It's more than a parasitic line, it's a symbiosis. Cole produced more with Desharnais than he ever did with Eric f***ing Staal!!
Probably because he's got two big wingers charging in down low?

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05-17-2012, 10:29 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Probably because he's got two big wingers charging in down low?
hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it i say. he rocks with big wingers? then give him big wingers.

and lets not forget what dd does when he's behind the net. simply amazing. the side boards on the other hand... yeah.... not so much...

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05-17-2012, 10:56 AM
  #86
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whatever you want to label him, Desharnais is a guy who put up 60pts in his first full NHL season, who (albeit in "sheltered" minutes) was a + player (3rd on the team) while playing 18+min/game on a basement team that finished with an -14 goal differential.


He's a good hockey player, one who at every level he's played at has produced above expectations, and one who seems to definitely help make his linemates better (some will argue that Patches/Cole made DD better, I'd say the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, that they complemented each other very well).


From a "need to upgrade" pov, I would think a sub 1M$ player, who anchored a line with 2-30 goal scorers (and to the "who makes who better" point, Patches a first-time 30 goal guy, Cole only the 2nd) on a team with trouble producing offensively, is the LEAST of their concerns.

If he has another highly productive year, and then wants a big payday as an RFA, then perhaps you start to ask wether or not he's effective enough overall to be worth the 4-5M$ an RFA putting up 60+ pts could legitimately negotiate for...

Until then, he's certainly done enough to be pencilled in as a reliable part of our top-9 imo, and if he gives us another year like last one, it won't be b/c of his shortcomings if we miss the playoffs again next year.

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05-17-2012, 10:56 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Probably because he's got two big wingers charging in down low?
Exactly. And he knows exactly what to do to generate the best out of these big guys.

Plekanec had Cole/Pac as wingers once and didn't adjusted his style to playing alongside heavyweight. Where as DD truly knows how to generate returns out of this big line.

DD has adjusted his playstyle and tactics according to his wingers for a year and a half now. He is clearly at his best with players who can create space, and he can make players who can create space at their best as well. Its a 2-way street.

Put Lucic alongside DD, and trust me he'd generate much better stats than when playing with Krejci, even if Krejci is, overall, a better hockey players.

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05-17-2012, 10:58 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it i say. he rocks with big wingers? then give him big wingers.

and lets not forget what dd does when he's behind the net. simply amazing. the side boards on the other hand... yeah.... not so much...
Yea Im not trying to bash the guy, wish him a 90 point season next year knaw mean? But I think Patches and Cole will take him as far as he takes them, which is 60-70 points.


He's got a knack for getting the puck on his stick in between the circles tho, which is a good trait to have. Puck seems to want to find him sometimes.

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05-17-2012, 01:34 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Yea Im not trying to bash the guy, wish him a 90 point season next year knaw mean? But I think Patches and Cole will take him as far as he takes them, which is 60-70 points.


He's got a knack for getting the puck on his stick in between the circles tho, which is a good trait to have. Puck seems to want to find him sometimes.
i wasn't insinuating that. i wholeheartedly agree with you.

if everything goes well and he sticks with a healthy pacioretty and cole. then 70 points isn't out of his reach

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05-17-2012, 02:15 PM
  #90
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DD has overachieved all every levels he played despite his size and the fact that he never was drafted.

Every single shift, goal or pass from him is a bonus.

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05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Yea Im not trying to bash the guy, wish him a 90 point season next year knaw mean? But I think Patches and Cole will take him as far as he takes them, which is 60-70 points.


He's got a knack for getting the puck on his stick in between the circles tho, which is a good trait to have. Puck seems to want to find him sometimes.
If we can have 3 guys at 60-70 points, that's a damn good line right there by NHL standards. Get some production going out of Plek's and Eller's lines, and a PP that's not abysmal, and offense will be fine.

But I personally think that DD can manage above 70 points eventually if our PP gets going (and if Markov can get his game back that will be a big step forward). I think his type of play is perfect for the PP and he could get a lot of points there. He's really dangerous down low or behind the net when D-men can't just charge at him.

I don't think he'll ever be a dominant all-around player, I doubt his frame and speed will allow him to ever be more than 'ok' defensively and there will always be a risk of mismatch when he's matched up against big elite forwards, but I think that as a point producer the future is pretty bright for him, as long as you surround him well.

And I personally do not give a damn if he has to be 'sheltered'. If he puts points on the board and helps the team wins, as long as the other lines can do the job while he's sheltered who cares? The other 2 centers that we have right now in Plekanec and Eller should both be very good defensively, Plekanec can match up with any player in the league if all he's focused on doing is prevent them from scoring.

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05-17-2012, 03:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Exactly. And he knows exactly what to do to generate the best out of these big guys.

Plekanec had Cole/Pac as wingers once and didn't adjusted his style to playing alongside heavyweight. Where as DD truly knows how to generate returns out of this big line.

DD has adjusted his playstyle and tactics according to his wingers for a year and a half now. He is clearly at his best with players who can create space, and he can make players who can create space at their best as well. Its a 2-way street.

Put Lucic alongside DD, and trust me he'd generate much better stats than when playing with Krejci, even if Krejci is, overall, a better hockey players.
When did you think Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole happened as a line? The one time they were together for a game was against Vancouver where the ran roughshod over everyone and won the game for the team while the rest of the lineup was getting beat.

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05-17-2012, 04:35 PM
  #93
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I'm still on the fence with DD. I can totally see him becoming a 70+ playmaker center for the next couples of years. I can also see him stagnating as a 45-50 points center with sheltered minutes.

The way he'll play next season should tell us a lot about his true potential.

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05-17-2012, 07:14 PM
  #94
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Produce.

Look at Desharnais - he's on the first line because he outplayed Eller and Gomez. He produced with plugs and is a clear offensive threat. Eller? His problem is he didn't use his linemates enough (they suck, I know, but he needs them) and he lacked consistency. He's still very young and

Right now Desharnais and Plekanec are better than Eller. When Eller is going to prove that sentence to be wrong then he's going to bump one of these two to the 3rd line. Desharnais is much better offensively while Plekanec is better offensively AND defensively. Unless we want to tank next year there is absolutely NO incentive to trade Plekanec. Plekanec is the responsible veteran center, yet he's young enough that he can play 22+ minutes when necessary. He's not an offensive dynamo but he can score a goal anytime and will never give up on his defensive duties. He's the stabilizing factor, a constant. Much like Gorges on D.

Meanwhile Eller is no Jordan Staal and yet Staal has been 3rd line center on his team for years now. Its a prized luxury to have many centers that could be top2 centers. I expect Eller to put up 40+ points next year, that would be great as a 3rd line center and would really help spread the offensive. He will likely be a key part of the 2nd PP wave unlike last year and hopefully rack up a few points there.

As for Plekanec and the playoffs - he's had a really bad playoff performance, otherwise he's never been ''bad''. Not gonna count on him to score a million points but he's going to get the job done. He's going to put defensive and mistake free play before points and personal glory. Again, you need these kind of players.



How many cups does Briere have?

Briere did rack up a lot of points in the playoffs, he's also much older. Briere's first PPG playoff performance came when he was 28. For all we know Desharnais could put up similar clutch effort by then. They are similar player.
keep them both as 1-2 and we stay medicore for years

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05-17-2012, 11:03 PM
  #95
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keep them both as 1-2 and we stay medicore for years
Why? Center was arguably our strongest position last year after goaltending, its far from the first thing we should change.


Last edited by TP: 05-18-2012 at 07:09 AM. Reason: mod
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05-18-2012, 12:07 AM
  #96
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He's better than Tyler Bozak. Lupul and Kessel would love him. And you can't have him.

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05-18-2012, 07:54 AM
  #97
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keep them both as 1-2 and we stay medicore for years
One of 5 teams in the league with 2 or more centres in the top 30 for points for centres. Keep in mind that was with Plekanec playing with garbage for most of the year, we possibly could've had 2 in the top-20.

I'm a lot more worried about our wingers.

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05-18-2012, 10:24 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
When did you think Pacioretty-Plekanec-Cole happened as a line? The one time they were together for a game was against Vancouver where the ran roughshod over everyone and won the game for the team while the rest of the lineup was getting beat.
You and I remember that game very differently, I think. Plekaneks couldn't get chemistry going with his winger (which I can't blame him much for that as it was only 1 game). The 2 Cole goals were from him rushing up the ice and being opportunistic, not because of gameplay domination alongside Plek.

The Leblanc line was actually the most solid of the night, albeit less opportunist.

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05-18-2012, 11:16 AM
  #99
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Why? Center was arguably our strongest position last year after goaltending, its far from the first thing we should change.
we have a very poor top 6 , winning nothing with this crap we have

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05-18-2012, 11:18 AM
  #100
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One of 5 teams in the league with 2 or more centres in the top 30 for points for centres. Keep in mind that was with Plekanec playing with garbage for most of the year, we possibly could've had 2 in the top-20.

I'm a lot more worried about our wingers.
are you watching the playoffs bro

are you going to compete with the dd -Pleks duo ?


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