HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-17-2012, 06:43 AM
  #251
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
How often have you actually watched Preds games? I probably saw about 25-30 Pred games this season.

Suter is absolutley more physical than Carle, in the ways I mentioned. It seems to me you are merely looking at subjective statistics (things like "hits") in making most of your conclusions about Suter. He's not a guy who goes out of his way to line someone up for "the big hit", one that's necessarily going to show up in the stats, but rather, he knows how to use his body if the stick check doesn't work to leverage guys off the puck and to battle physically on the backcheck when needed, much moreso than Carle.

Watch this example:

http://video.predators.nhl.com/video...21&event=NSH83


Notice how Suter gets the good stickcheck there to separate the puck from Filppula as he enters the zone, before riding him into the back boards, finishing his check and physically taking him off the puck/play. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I could see Carle making that first part of the play (the stickcheck) on Filppula, but not the second part (the body check)...Detroit would more likely have gained posession there if it was Carle.
You can make all the baseless assumptions you want. Doesn't make it reality. I've watched the Preds play a lot. Not aware of how many games specifically. Carle and Suter are very similar physical players. And very comparable in that area. Should I now post one video clip of Carle making a hit? LOL And your comment that Detroit would have more then likely gained possession there. More evidence of your bias towards Carle. A competent analysis just wouldn't include a statement like that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I never said he was (I take it comprehension is not your strong suit)...my statement, in context, was basically that Bourdon, a rookie, was better in those same physical aspects I was talking about in that paragraph about Suter (being able to body up to neutralize an oncoming attacker when necessary and battling guys more physically than Carle in front of the net and on the backcheck in general).
I didn't say that you did say he was ( I take it comprehension is not your strong point)...Bourdon is also a more physical player then Suter is. And some other quality defenseman in the League such as Yandle. So really what's your point? What it was a was a lame attempt to discredit Carle by making an asinine comparison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I see Carle out there sometimes behind the net and he looks confused sometimes...and his various gaffes with the puck deep in his own end seem to lend credence to that.
All defenseman make mistakes. What you see is what you want to see. Due to your obvious bias towards Carle. Which isn't fact based. The Flyers coaching staff likes to play a confused defenseman 25 minutes a night in the playoffs because they like the varous gaffes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Well, that was then, this is now...Flyers have a high scoring team and Carle gets minutes so yeah he'll pick up some points... Carle was 17th in the league in (D men) points per 60 mins on ice this season. Not bad, but not better than some others on the team, like say, Meszaros, who was 3rd in the league behind Karlsson and Letang or Timonen, who was 10th.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+4+6+7+8+20+10
No it's not just then. It continues to be the same this Season. As Carle was again one of the top ES point producers among defenseman in the League.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Agreed, but there are times when the good outlet isn't there, and room is there to skate out with it or maybe use the net to separate form a pressuring forechecker then skate it out to start the rush leaving that guy behind... it can be advantageous there as it pressures the opposing team and opens up passing lanes. At times it seems like Carle is too stationary in starting the break, that's what I mean kind of tentative and always looking to pass it off to the D partner or maybe make a little higher risk pass attempt...if the other team is covering up all the passing lanes, they're probably leaving you room...you gotta bring it out sometimes if you're in that role imo. The league's better puck moving defensemen seem to be able to do this with aplomb. See: Timonen, Kimmo. I'm not going to say that Carle never does it, but it seems relatively rare that he endeavors to carry the puck up ice...to me that's a limitation..and given that he skates well and I've seen him be able to do it to good effect, it lends further credence to that lack of confidence feeling I see when I watch him sometimes.
it's an inaccurate perception. There is no confidence issue in Carle's game. He is an experienced player who is calm under pressure with the puck. He makes quality play after quality play under heavy pressure. That's why the Coaches play him so much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Exactly...and I'm saying Carle tends not to take that when available.
Carle is a strong decision make with the puck.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Oh, I didn't fail to look at minutes played...even if you adjust for that, Suter had 4.44 pts per 60 powerplay minutes on ice vs. Carle's 3.05 pts per 60 powerplay minutes on ice...making Suter 45% more productive with his powerplay time than Carle was with his.

Carle
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+4+6+7+8+20+10

Suter
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+4+6+7+8+20+10
Yes, you most certainly did fail to look at it. If Carle played next to Weber on the point of the PP for the minutes that Suter plays there. Carle's PP point total would almost certainly rise. Carle played those minutes on the 2nd PP unit away from the top PP point producers on the team such as Giroux and Hartnell. You analysis there was incomplete and I called you on it. Still, Suter is the better PP point man.




Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Carle also plays on one of the most potent scoring teams in the leauge with the likes of the "elite" Claude Giroux and Hartnell, who I believe was the league leader in PP goals. Shoot, I could probably put 12 poweplay points if given Carle's pp time with that kind of talent to cover my ineptitude...also Carle played with Pronger on the PP at times, and he has a cannon, but that didn't seem to help him much on the PP production.
Again, a complete failure in analysis. Carle played most of his time on the 2nd PP unit, away from Hartnell and Giroux. It seems to me that you haven't watched many Flyers games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Again...3rd IN THE NHL IN MINUTES...MORE THAN WEBER...how is that not a clear cut #1 on many teams, including the Flyers (sans Progner)? What do you have to say about the minutes factor...isn't that a pretty strong indicator?
It is a strong factor. But when your looking at signing a player to a deal for what it would take to get the player. You have to look at all the factors of the player as an individual. A true #1 is a shutdown defender as well as an offensive producer. Suter in my opinion is not a shutdown defender. He's a very good #2. And he would be a decent #1 on some teams. But not what I'd be looking for as a #1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Again, I think you must be basing this on the "Hits" statistic. How many Preds games did you see this season?
Again a false assumption on your part which makes you look foolish.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Mmmmyeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree there.
Nice touch with the emoticon. I don't need to use them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Yes, Suter will get paid, but I disagree and think he is that guy you can feel comfortable making a longer term moderate cap hit deal with. I wouldn't break the bank for him, but if he can come in at between 6-6.5 cap hit, I'd strongly consider it, especially it if is versus giving Carle 5mm or anything over it. Weber I'd pay the 7.5 (cap hit) he's getting now, on a long term deal.
I would not sign Suter to the long term deal it might take to get an AAV in that range.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post

Oh boy...well, I'm going to have to disagree here. Sans Pronger (an obvious game changer) the scale likely tilts toward the Preds on this one. Suter and Weber are as good a pairing as you'll see in the league...then you have Kevin Klein a speedy player who is solid at both ends and is coming into his prime paired with a high ceiling Swiss player Roman Josi, then veterans Hal Gill and F. Bouillon round out the bottom pairing...don't forget Ryan Ellis and Jonathon Blum, two of the top 50 prospects in the world (as ranked by HF) are being groomed into the lineup...all things considered, that's about as good a defensive group as any team in the league.
The Flyers have 5 top 4 level defenseman. 6 if you count Pronger. Flyers have a much deeper defense core. They use the Coburn/Grossmann pairing against other top lines. The Preds are heavily reliant on the top pair.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
How did that go? Is that the ideal role for him? Maybe in 2-3 years when Bourdon proves himself more and gains consistency, but that pairing wasn't exactly a big winner...it's just what they had to work with at the time...ideally you don't put Carle in that spot with a rookie...maybe only on a 3rd pairing in limited minutes.
It went fine. And obviously the Coaching staff was fine with it as they kept it together for a considerable time. Carle carried a weaker player for a good amount of game. Which obviously proves that your analysis of Carle not being able to carry a pairing is incorrect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
It begs the question, if Matt Carle is your top minutes guy, how good is your defense? It's no coincidence that there are significant question marks on D now in the post Pronger era. Carle did a good job at filling a role above his head, but having to give Matt Carle top minutes isn't a good situation, unless it's say, as a support guy to a Pronger or Timonen type. If the Flyers plan to continue to play Carle as their top minute getter, I could see them paying him 5-6 million per year... but I don't think that is the plan...at least, I hope not. If they pay him it should be a decent raise for the job he's done and an eye toward having him play second pairing type minutes, which is where he should be (except perhaps playing Pronger or a Shea Weber God willing). He has shortcomings that make me uncomfortable paying him a premium deal of the type that he could possibly garner in the open market.
I agree. Carle shouldn't be the top minute getter on the team. That should go to a true #1 such as Pronger. But Carle as he has shown in the past, is an excellent complimentary player to a #1 such as Pronger.
Again, like others you misread the NHL salary structure and what top NHL defenseman make. And what players like Carle make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Yes, cap hit is what I generally look at for this kind of thing. I disagree with you for reasons stated, and would most likely be willing make that kind of commitment to Suter. It sounds like he wants a long term deal and given the structures we've seen in the past, I can see them working something out to get the cap hit down around that 6.25 mil area.
The Flyers might very well wind up doing that. I'd rather wait for the right player and make that commitment to a true #1.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-17-2012 at 07:06 AM.
VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 07:35 AM
  #252
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,978
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post

As far as where these guys should be played and paid...I think it's hardly "a stretch" to say that Suter is/can be a #1 D man. Shea Weber is a borderline generational type talent who brings the total package, and even so, Suter plays more minutes than him (3rd highest in the league)...that should tell you all you need to know about Suter's role and value.
Carle led our defensemen in TOI/60 at 5 v 5, more than two defensemen with a higher cap hit (Kimmo, Mez), and two more who have a higher cap hit next year than he did this year (Coburn, Grossmann). Should tell you all you need to know about how important they think he is.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 08:07 AM
  #253
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Carle led our defensemen in TOI/60 at 5 v 5, more than two defensemen with a higher cap hit (Kimmo, Mez), and two more who have a higher cap hit next year than he did this year (Coburn, Grossmann). Should tell you all you need to know about how important they think he is.
Carle remains one of the better defenseman at ES in the NHL. Carle put up elite numbers at ES in 10/11. He wasn't as good this year, but still produced very well.

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 08:42 AM
  #254
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Carle led our defensemen in TOI/60 at 5 v 5, more than two defensemen with a higher cap hit (Kimmo, Mez), and two more who have a higher cap hit next year than he did this year (Coburn, Grossmann). Should tell you all you need to know about how important they think he is.

That's not an ideal situation. If Carle is your leading TOI guy (in any 5v5 4v5 5v4) scnario, you'r defense probably isn't going to be that good. Oh, and guess what? They Flyers defense wasn't that good. Sometimes necessity makes teams have to put players in positions they aren't best sutied for. Things have to change.

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 08:46 AM
  #255
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
You can make all the baseless assumptions you want. Doesn't make it reality. I've watched the Preds play a lot. Not aware of how many games specifically. Carle and Suter are very similar physical players. And very comparable in that area. Should I now post one video clip of Carle making a hit? LOL And your comment that Detroit would have more then likely gained possession there. More evidence of your bias towards Carle. A competent analysis just wouldn't include a statement like that.





I didn't say that you did say he was ( I take it comprehension is not your strong point)...Bourdon is also a more physical player then Suter is. And some other quality defenseman in the League such as Yandle. So really what's your point? What it was a was a lame attempt to discredit Carle by making an asinine comparison.




All defenseman make mistakes. What you see is what you want to see. Due to your obvious bias towards Carle. Which isn't fact based. The Flyers coaching staff likes to play a confused defenseman 25 minutes a night in the playoffs because they like the varous gaffes.





No it's not just then. It continues to be the same this Season. As Carle was again one of the top ES point producers among defenseman in the League.





it's an inaccurate perception. There is no confidence issue in Carle's game. He is an experienced player who is calm under pressure with the puck. He makes quality play after quality play under heavy pressure. That's why the Coaches play him so much.




Carle is a strong decision make with the puck.





Yes, you most certainly did fail to look at it. If Carle played next to Weber on the point of the PP for the minutes that Suter plays there. Carle's PP point total would almost certainly rise. Carle played those minutes on the 2nd PP unit away from the top PP point producers on the team such as Giroux and Hartnell. You analysis there was incomplete and I called you on it. Still, Suter is the better PP point man.






Again, a complete failure in analysis. Carle played most of his time on the 2nd PP unit, away from Hartnell and Giroux. It seems to me that you haven't watched many Flyers games.




It is a strong factor. But when your looking at signing a player to a deal for what it would take to get the player. You have to look at all the factors of the player as an individual. A true #1 is a shutdown defender as well as an offensive producer. Suter in my opinion is not a shutdown defender. He's a very good #2. And he would be a decent #1 on some teams. But not what I'd be looking for as a #1.




Again a false assumption on your part which makes you look foolish.





Nice touch with the emoticon. I don't need to use them.





I would not sign Suter to the long term deal it might take to get an AAV in that range.





The Flyers have 5 top 4 level defenseman. 6 if you count Pronger. Flyers have a much deeper defense core. They use the Coburn/Grossmann pairing against other top lines. The Preds are heavily reliant on the top pair.





It went fine. And obviously the Coaching staff was fine with it as they kept it together for a considerable time. Carle carried a weaker player for a good amount of game. Which obviously proves that your analysis of Carle not being able to carry a pairing is incorrect.




I agree. Carle shouldn't be the top minute getter on the team. That should go to a true #1 such as Pronger. But Carle as he has shown in the past, is an excellent complimentary player to a #1 such as Pronger.
Again, like others you misread the NHL salary structure and what top NHL defenseman make. And what players like Carle make.




The Flyers might very well wind up doing that. I'd rather wait for the right player and make that commitment to a true #1.

I laugh at your weak refutations...just saying the opposite of what I say, as if coming from you makes it true. You obviously have a very myopic and biased view of Matt Carle and seem to lack much of any real first hand knowledge of Ryan Suter. If your player analysis has you significantly overrating players like Matt Carle and Andreas Nodl and underrating players like Giroux and Wellwood, then you're the one with the flawed analysis. Good luck with that.

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 08:50 AM
  #256
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 109,978
vCash: 5792
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
That's not an ideal situation. If Carle is your leading TOI guy (in any 5v5 4v5 5v4) scnario, you'r defense probably isn't going to be that good. Oh, and guess what? They Flyers defense wasn't that good. Sometimes necessity makes teams have to put players in positions they aren't best sutied for. Things have to change.
The Flyers were in the top 10 in in both team +-/60 and SA/60, so there isn't much credence to your argument. Plus, the Flyers played a lot of special teams, so Timonen and Coburn were killing a lot of penalties.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 09:18 AM
  #257
VanSciver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
That's not an ideal situation. If Carle is your leading TOI guy (in any 5v5 4v5 5v4) scnario, you'r defense probably isn't going to be that good. Oh, and guess what? They Flyers defense wasn't that good. Sometimes necessity makes teams have to put players in positions they aren't best sutied for. Things have to change.
That's an incorrect statement by you. As Carle has been one of the top defenseman in the League at ES play for a couple of years now. And was elite at ES play in 10/11. So the Flyers Coaching staff is obviously trying to take advantage of that, with the ice time they play Carle at in ES play. It's not an accident that Carle's ES icetime is where it's at. Any objective analysis of Carle would definitely be aware of that. And recognize how good Carle is at ES.




Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I laugh at your weak refutations...just saying the opposite of what I say, as if coming from you makes it true. You obviously have a very myopic and biased view of Matt Carle and seem to lack much of any real first hand knowledge of Ryan Suter. If your player analysis has you significantly overrating players like Matt Carle and Andreas Nodl and underrating players like Giroux and Wellwood, then you're the one with the flawed analysis. Good luck with that.
Like I've said previously. You keep attributing comments to me that I've made. I've asked you numerous times to produce these comments. You seem bent on making personal comments. I have no need to do so. My analysis of Carle as a player is accurate and unbiased. And with complete objectivity. And can be backed up with factual evidence to support it. You seem to think that your statements
that I have a myopic and biased view of Carle are true because it's coming from you. I think the fact that you need to get personal says all I need to know. You can say I have no knowledge of this or that, but that doesn't make it true because you say so. I can however prove that you have a lack of knowledge of Carle on the Flyers, as you were unaware and overlooked that Carle did not spend a lot of time during the regular Season playing with the Flyers top PP producers in Hartnell and Giroux. And your statements in your posts back that up. And the difference between you and I, is that I can produce that statement that you made.

VanSciver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 09:44 AM
  #258
RJ8812
Gunner Stahl #9
 
RJ8812's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sudbury
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,751
vCash: 769
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
That's not an ideal situation. If Carle is your leading TOI guy (in any 5v5 4v5 5v4) scnario, you'r defense probably isn't going to be that good. Oh, and guess what? They Flyers defense wasn't that good. Sometimes necessity makes teams have to put players in positions they aren't best sutied for. Things have to change.
talking sense on these boards usually doesnt get you anywhere......unless you back it up with stats that don't mean much

RJ8812 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 10:08 AM
  #259
Go For It
Registered User
 
Go For It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,043
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
talking sense on these boards usually doesnt get you anywhere......unless you back it up with stats that don't mean much
Holding a position without utilizing statistics that show what actually happens doesn't mean much.

Go For It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 10:23 AM
  #260
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The Flyers were in the top 10 in in both team +-/60 and SA/60, so there isn't much credence to your argument. Plus, the Flyers played a lot of special teams, so Timonen and Coburn were killing a lot of penalties.
So, you're happy with Carle getting top minutes then? And you're happy with the flyers d as is?

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 10:39 AM
  #261
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Holding a position without utilizing statistics that show what actually happens doesn't mean much.
I provided numerous links to stats and such to back many of my points...

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 10:50 AM
  #262
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's an incorrect statement by you. As Carle has been one of the top defenseman in the League at ES play for a couple of years now. And was elite at ES play in 10/11. So the Flyers Coaching staff is obviously trying to take advantage of that, with the ice time they play Carle at in ES play. It's not an accident that Carle's ES icetime is where it's at. Any objective analysis of Carle would definitely be aware of that. And recognize how good Carle is at ES.






Like I've said previously. You keep attributing comments to me that I've made. I've asked you numerous times to produce these comments. You seem bent on making personal comments. I have no need to do so. My analysis of Carle as a player is accurate and unbiased. And with complete objectivity. And can be backed up with factual evidence to support it. You seem to think that your statements
that I have a myopic and biased view of Carle are true because it's coming from you. I think the fact that you need to get personal says all I need to know. You can say I have no knowledge of this or that, but that doesn't make it true because you say so. I can however prove that you have a lack of knowledge of Carle on the Flyers, as you were unaware and overlooked that Carle did not spend a lot of time during the regular Season playing with the Flyers top PP producers in Hartnell and Giroux. And your statements in your posts back that up. And the difference between you and I, is that I can produce that statement that you made.
I never said Carle was always on the pp with G and Hartnell but he did play with them at times...similarly to how Suter wasnt always playing with weber either...

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 10:52 AM
  #263
dawkins121
Registered User
 
dawkins121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
So, you're happy with Carle getting top minutes then? And you're happy with the flyers d as is?
I don't think our defense is perfect but I do think it would be worse without Carle. Maybe find someone to shore up the third pairing (or one of Gus, Bourdon, or Manning steps up) then roll with a top six of Timonen, Coburn, Grossmann, Carle, Meszaros, Gus/Bourdon/Manning/UFA. If things don't work out after next season, we have Timonen's money coming off the books and we can reevaluate and take a serious look at Weber.

I would prefer that situation to letting Carle (who is apparently willing to sign for a reasonable price) go and rolling the dice hoping Suter chooses us over Detroit or Nashville. And while Suter is good he's no Weber.

Even if we do sign Carle and then Suter expresses serious interest in us Homer has said that he would be able to move contracts to free up some space (presumably Meszaros) so it wouldn't necessarily rule us out of the Suter sweepstakes.

dawkins121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 11:14 AM
  #264
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
I don't think our defense is perfect but I do think it would be worse without Carle. Maybe find someone to shore up the third pairing (or one of Gus, Bourdon, or Manning steps up) then roll with a top six of Timonen, Coburn, Grossmann, Carle, Meszaros, Gus/Bourdon/Manning/UFA. If things don't work out after next season, we have Timonen's money coming off the books and we can reevaluate and take a serious look at Weber.

I would prefer that situation to letting Carle (who is apparently willing to sign for a reasonable price) go and rolling the dice hoping Suter chooses us over Detroit or Nashville. And while Suter is good he's no Weber.

Even if we do sign Carle and then Suter expresses serious interest in us Homer has said that he would be able to move contracts to free up some space (presumably Meszaros) so it wouldn't necessarily rule us out of the Suter sweepstakes.
What if it comes down to signing Carle at 5+ mil or Suter at say 6.5? Do you let Carle walk? I do....

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 11:35 AM
  #265
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 31,043
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
What if it comes down to signing Carle at 5+ mil or Suter at say 6.5? Do you let Carle walk? I do....
let the next Lidstrom or Chara walk? surely you are kidding

GoneFullHextall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 12:41 PM
  #266
TheLegendkiller
Registered User
 
TheLegendkiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,428
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
I don't think our defense is perfect but I do think it would be worse without Carle. Maybe find someone to shore up the third pairing (or one of Gus, Bourdon, or Manning steps up) then roll with a top six of Timonen, Coburn, Grossmann, Carle, Meszaros, Gus/Bourdon/Manning/UFA. If things don't work out after next season, we have Timonen's money coming off the books and we can reevaluate and take a serious look at Weber.

I would prefer that situation to letting Carle (who is apparently willing to sign for a reasonable price) go and rolling the dice hoping Suter chooses us over Detroit or Nashville. And while Suter is good he's no Weber.

Even if we do sign Carle and then Suter expresses serious interest in us Homer has said that he would be able to move contracts to free up some space (presumably Meszaros) so it wouldn't necessarily rule us out of the Suter sweepstakes.
Why the hell would we move Meszaros instead of Carle? Carle's been by far the worst defenseman on the team the last 2 playoffs. He's basically a slightly better Marc-Andre Gragnani.

TheLegendkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 12:43 PM
  #267
DumpyD
Registered User
 
DumpyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 638
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Why the hell would we move Meszaros instead of Carle? Carle's been by far the worst defenseman on the team the last 2 playoffs. He's basically a slightly better Marc-Andre Gragnani.
Because Carle = Suter. We had him all along!

DumpyD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #268
dawkins121
Registered User
 
dawkins121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
What if it comes down to signing Carle at 5+ mil or Suter at say 6.5? Do you let Carle walk? I do....
What kind of contract do you think it would take for Suter to sign with us at 6.5 when he could almost certainly get 7+ from Detroit, Nashville or another team? We are already on the hook for Bryzgalov for another 8 years, are you ready to hand out another decade long contract? If Carle is willing to sign for 4.5 to 5 mill now, before he gets to the open market, do you really turn him down so that you can take a shot at Suter?

What happens if we wait until July and Suter signs with another team? Do we go back and offer Carle even more since he is probably the second best option available? If you don't like Carle at the home discount price, how do you think you'll like him at the open market price?


Everyone seems to think that signing/not signing players is such a clear cut decision. Like Holmgren is sitting on Cap Geek plugging in numbers and once he finds the right combination all of those players will happily sign for whatever we ask them to.

Of course I would take Suter at 6.5 over Carle at 5+, but personally I don't think Carle will get more than 5 and I don't think Suter will get less than 7 and even if you are willing to take Suter at that price there's no gaurantee he would choose us.

If you think this team can be a serious contender next year, you don't gamble on breaking the bank for a star when the next best option is available in-house at a reasonable price. You find other ways to improve your team.

dawkins121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 12:51 PM
  #269
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 12,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
If you think this team can be a serious contender next year, you don't gamble on breaking the bank for a star when the next best option is available in-house at a reasonable price. You find other ways to improve your team.
so you think keeping Carle is the key to being a contender next season ???

when clearly over the last 3 years (with Carle) defense has been an issue ??

face it, keeping Carle at this point is gunna get us nowere.. its time to move on and try other player(s)...

Flyerfan4life is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:18 PM
  #270
dawkins121
Registered User
 
dawkins121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
so you think keeping Carle is the key to being a contender next season ???

when clearly over the last 3 years (with Carle) defense has been an issue ??

face it, keeping Carle at this point is gunna get us nowere.. its time to move on and try other player(s)...
You'r blaming the defensive struggles of the last 3 years on Matt Carle? Coburn and Timonen have been on the defense the last 3 years too. Do they share any of the blame?

I'm not trying to say Carle is a worldbeater in his own end. He clearly has some deficincies. However, he is an above average puck mover, is pretty underrated in his own zone, and log lot's of ice time and still be pretty effective. He's a legitimate top 4 player. He's especially valuable in Laviolette's system that puts extra emphasis on transition game and breakout passes.

Once again I would like to emphasize that sitting at home and chalking up Suter to 6.5 million on your Cap Geek roster does not automatically make him part of the team. That also does not work for Jackman, Garrison, or Just Shultz. There are not a lot of great options out there and Carle is a guy that we know has value, we know how he fits in our system, and we know he wants to sign here.

I don't get how people can be so one-sided about this. Everyone recognizes the need for bottom six forwards that can back check and play defense even though they have limited offensive contributions. Well we also need defensemen who don't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

Why do people think we can get away with a defense made up entirely of Grossmanns and Coburns? Do all of you think Timonen is still the same player he used to be? That he is going to log 25+ minutes a night and be our only puck mover? Do you think Laviolette just lost track of time and that Carle played significantly more minutes than Timonen by accident last season? We need puck movers if we are going to play a run and gun system. If you don't like the system blame Laviolette.

dawkins121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:25 PM
  #271
Broad Street Elite
Registered User
 
Broad Street Elite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,355
vCash: 500
Recognizing where we are, I'd rather let Carle walk for anything over 4.5M. If he signs for less than Coburn, we can talk. If he won't, he can walk. I just don't want to be tied to Matt carle over the next 4-5 seasons, even if it means relying more heavily on the young defensemen we have or bringing in an aging vet to bridge the gap between this year and better UFA opportunities or player development on defense.

Broad Street Elite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:26 PM
  #272
Go For It
Registered User
 
Go For It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Collegeville, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,043
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I provided numerous links to stats and such to back many of my points...
Wasn't for you.

Go For It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:30 PM
  #273
Flyerfan4life
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Richmond BC, Canada
Country: England
Posts: 12,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
You'r blaming the defensive struggles of the last 3 years on Matt Carle? Coburn and Timonen have been on the defense the last 3 years too. Do they share any of the blame?

I'm not trying to say Carle is a worldbeater in his own end. He clearly has some deficincies. However, he is an above average puck mover, is pretty underrated in his own zone, and log lot's of ice time and still be pretty effective. He's a legitimate top 4 player. He's especially valuable in Laviolette's system that puts extra emphasis on transition game and breakout passes.

Once again I would like to emphasize that sitting at home and chalking up Suter to 6.5 million on your Cap Geek roster does not automatically make him part of the team. That also does not work for Jackman, Garrison, or Just Shultz. There are not a lot of great options out there and Carle is a guy that we know has value, we know how he fits in our system, and we know he wants to sign here.

I don't get how people can be so one-sided about this. Everyone recognizes the need for bottom six forwards that can back check and play defense even though they have limited offensive contributions. Well we also need defensemen who don't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

Why do people think we can get away with a defense made up entirely of Grossmanns and Coburns? Do all of you think Timonen is still the same player he used to be? That he is going to log 25+ minutes a night and be our only puck mover? Do you think Laviolette just lost track of time and that Carle played significantly more minutes than Timonen by accident last season? We need puck movers if we are going to play a run and gun system. If you don't like the system blame Laviolette.
clearly Carle isnt to blame for all the woes of this team..

but if we are truely gunna upgrade the d, then lets actualy do it..

keeping Carle DOES NOT improve the D at all..

Flyerfan4life is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:32 PM
  #274
dawkins121
Registered User
 
dawkins121's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
clearly Carle isnt to blame for all the woes of this team..

but if we are truely gunna upgrade the d, then lets actualy do it..

keeping Carle DOES NOT improve the D at all..
No but letting him walk could make it much, much worse depending on how the rest of the offseason pans out.

dawkins121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-17-2012, 01:40 PM
  #275
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
You'r blaming the defensive struggles of the last 3 years on Matt Carle? Coburn and Timonen have been on the defense the last 3 years too. Do they share any of the blame?

I'm not trying to say Carle is a worldbeater in his own end. He clearly has some deficincies. However, he is an above average puck mover, is pretty underrated in his own zone, and log lot's of ice time and still be pretty effective. He's a legitimate top 4 player. He's especially valuable in Laviolette's system that puts extra emphasis on transition game and breakout passes.

Once again I would like to emphasize that sitting at home and chalking up Suter to 6.5 million on your Cap Geek roster does not automatically make him part of the team. That also does not work for Jackman, Garrison, or Just Shultz. There are not a lot of great options out there and Carle is a guy that we know has value, we know how he fits in our system, and we know he wants to sign here.

I don't get how people can be so one-sided about this. Everyone recognizes the need for bottom six forwards that can back check and play defense even though they have limited offensive contributions. Well we also need defensemen who don't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

Why do people think we can get away with a defense made up entirely of Grossmanns and Coburns? Do all of you think Timonen is still the same player he used to be? That he is going to log 25+ minutes a night and be our only puck mover? Do you think Laviolette just lost track of time and that Carle played significantly more minutes than Timonen by accident last season? We need puck movers if we are going to play a run and gun system. If you don't like the system blame Laviolette.
Both carle and suter will be ufas....Homer can evaluate both players and their demands and try to sign the one he wants...maybe he'll trade for negotiating rights before nash would lose him...he's done that before...with the same GM on the other side. A long term deal, which Suter has claimed he is seeking, may allow for a cap hit/aav of less than 7mm per yr..

While there are a number of different scenarios possible, if a decision is to be made of signing carle at 5+ or suter at <7 AAV, I'd take Suter...

fauxflex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.