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Can Habs become like the new St. Louis Rams and choose talent over character?

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05-17-2012, 02:05 PM
  #1
Habs4ever
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Can Habs become like the new St. Louis Rams and choose talent over character?

Hello guys, it seems st.Louise had been drafting based on Character but just last draft they let loose with new Front Office and took risk with less character guys to get huge talent in the draft.

Now, this seems to be our Achilles heels as we have actually let go lot of guys with so called character problems, and other teams have taken full advantage, and these players have blossomed else where so, can we try something similar here, and land some gems and take risks? or are we too self conscious to try the opposite route?


If yes to risk, then which players do we target?

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05-17-2012, 02:08 PM
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Et le But
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How about we look for a mix of both? you don't need choir boys but having guys with the right attitude makes a difference.

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05-17-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
How about we look for a mix of both? you don't need choir boys but having guys with the right attitude makes a difference.
All the great Habs teams of the fifties, sixties & seventies had the right mix. The 1986 team was young but full of character.

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05-17-2012, 02:10 PM
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Hey there..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
How about we look for a mix of both? you don't need choir boys but having guys with the right attitude makes a difference.
I understand about mixing it up; but recently we have lost way too many assets due to their missing character trait and I would like to see change of direction here; and see if we can get some break through via Risk.

We have gotten our self with Gomez with this precise thinking, and we always seem to trade a player whenever something goes wrong in the name of character; so, we have been sacrificing future for good media coverage.


Last edited by Habs4ever: 05-17-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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05-17-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
Hello guys, it seems st.Louise had been drafting based on Character but just last draft they let loose with new Front Office and took risk with less character guys to get huge talent in the draft.

Now, this seems to be our Achilles heels as we have actually let go lot of guys with so called character problems, and other teams have taken full advantage, and these players have blossomed else where so, can we try something similar here, and land some gems and take risks? or are we too self conscious to try the opposite route?


If yes to risk, then which players do we target?
The Bengals have had a history of drafting guys with baggage and they never won anything.

I think Timmins values character and so does Bergevin, so you won't see us draft guys with character issues unless it's a late gamble on a highly skilled guy.

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05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
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Hey there..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The Bengals have had a history of drafting guys with baggage and they never won anything.

I think Timmins values character and so does Bergevin, so you won't see us draft guys with character issues unless it's a late gamble on a highly skilled guy.
Why stop at draft, we could snatch very good young players under performing from other team as well. I really hope our management looks at various options to upgrade the roster, and add talent and take chances on players, and show some patience.

For example, Rudulov is not feeling good in Nashville, So, how about taking a chance on him; I understand that there is a risk; still, reward is too big and I hope our management takes aggressive stance on landing elite talent..

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05-17-2012, 03:50 PM
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You need both. Failure to address one of the two qualities, means complete failure.

A team filled with Kostopouloses isn't going to go anywhere. A team filled with Semins will get routed in 4 games in the first round.

When the Habs were a dynasty, guys like Robinson, Lafleur, Richard...etc. all had a combination of skill and character.

If a Habs GM builds a team solely on skill, he will appease the fans temporarily but when the playoffs come, those same fans will call for his head.

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05-17-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
Why stop at draft, we could snatch very good young players under performing from other team as well. I really hope our management looks at various options to upgrade the roster, and add talent and take chances on players, and show some patience.

For example, Rudulov is not feeling good in Nashville, So, how about taking a chance on him; I understand that there is a risk; still, reward is too big and I hope our management takes aggressive stance on landing elite talent..
I think you can take the odd chance, but if you have too many guys with questionable character you won't win anything.

You can have 1 or 2 on the roster and the strong leaders keep them in line. I wouldn't really call Radulov "young" he's like 25 and a year from UFA. Getting him would be dicey, first it would probably cost a good young player(Tinordi/Ellis/Beaulieu/LeBlanc or 1st pick), second unless we offer a big money 3-4 year deal he either bolts to the KHL or signs for 1 year then becomes a UFA and we have potentially wasted a good asset on a guy who leaves for nothing.

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05-17-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
You need both. Failure to address one of the two qualities, means complete failure.

A team filled with Kostopouloses isn't going to go anywhere. A team filled with Semins will get routed in 4 games in the first round.

When the Habs were a dynasty, guys like Robinson, Lafleur, Richard...etc. all had a combination of skill and character.

If a Habs GM builds a team solely on skill, he will appease the fans temporarily but when the playoffs come, those same fans will call for his head.
You are putting players in extreme streotypes. Not every character player is a Kostopoulos...a guy like Parise is a character player and he can score 30-40 a year and put up around 1 PPGM. He may or may not be available to us, but the point still remains.

Ideally you have a lot of skill guys that also have a work ethic and character.

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05-17-2012, 05:24 PM
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Getting good players that get dumped for supposed character reasons can be a very good idea.

Penner-Richards-Carter is the tough minutes line for the best team in the NHL right now. All three of them were traded within the last year for lesser assets under the cloud of off-ice issues.

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05-17-2012, 05:55 PM
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Radulov-Grigorenko-Semin

Radulov would be cheap to trade for. We could draft Grigorenko. We could sign Semin. 3 guys who could hit 80 pts each. And a potential 1st line out of this world elite playmaking center ! And a true sniper to replace Cammy.

Then, you have Pleks in a shutdown role with Giona and Leblanc.

Dump Bourque ! He's not talented enough to be a problem child.


Last edited by FF de Mars: 05-17-2012 at 06:14 PM.
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05-17-2012, 06:02 PM
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Hard work/character only beats talent in leagues where talent doesn't work hard/show character. The NHL is not that league (anymore? yet?)

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05-17-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hard work/character only beats talent in leagues where talent doesn't work hard/show character. The NHL is not that league (anymore? yet?)
I'd say its more accurate that by the NHL level the balance of hard work and talent that leads to performance is pretty much already there for the most part and is reflected by how they do on the ice. By all means avoid the guy that has a truckload of puckskills but does nothing to drive the play but don't ignore a consistent 30 goal threat because you don't like him personally.

The ability to work hard, such that it is different in NHL players, already will show up in results. Its not a magic extra thing that makes those results more worthwhile. To many people use working hard as a mental proxy for defense but defense should be measured by measuring defense not how hard a guy looks like he's skating.

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05-17-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
I'd say its more accurate that by the NHL level the balance of hard work and talent that leads to performance is pretty much already there for the most part and is reflected by how they do on the ice. By all means avoid the guy that has a truckload of puckskills but does nothing to drive the play but don't ignore a consistent 30 goal threat because you don't like him personally.

The ability to work hard, such that it is different in NHL players, already will show up in results. Its not a magic extra thing that makes those results more worthwhile. To many people use working hard as a mental proxy for defense but defense should be measured by measuring defense not how hard a guy looks like he's skating.
When I say "hard work/character", I allude to the commitment they show/make to a team, buying into systems, and playing "mental mistake free" hockey because they have great practice/training habits, etc. Talented players get drafted all the time but some never really make it to the NHL. Other than bad luck/timing in some cases what happens? There's just too much hard work going on in the NHL these days for talent to coast in and have an impact. It's an intangible, and it's impossible to measure, but you're foolish if you think intangibles are completely meaningless to teams looking to make the best selections with their draft picks, for example.

I think talent is perhaps still ultimately the most important (there's definitely a level of "minimum requirement" that no amount of hard work can overcome), but if we were to apply this to, say, the acquisition of someone like Radulov (for example), I'd be very reluctant to divert a lot of resources/assets to those ends.

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05-17-2012, 10:16 PM
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Hey..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You are putting players in extreme streotypes. Not every character player is a Kostopoulos...a guy like Parise is a character player and he can score 30-40 a year and put up around 1 PPGM. He may or may not be available to us, but the point still remains.

Ideally you have a lot of skill guys that also have a work ethic and character.
I understand Parise is a good skill/character guy, but we can't afford to trade or have resources to aquire that kind of talent;

so, the next best thing is talented guys that are having difficulty in other systems and teams, as they come cheap, and we get better value out of them.

And we have drafted bad character guys as well; just look at our past first rounder like Hainsey, Higgins, Kostitsyn, Fischer they had attitude or character issues highlighted and they were later dealt; so, it seems we do take risks; so, why don't fans actually root for risk rather then always asking for class and character;

I would really like habs to ice a skilled team, and not just team full of character and class.

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05-17-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF de Mars View Post
Radulov-Grigorenko-Semin

Radulov would be cheap to trade for. We could draft Grigorenko. We could sign Semin. 3 guys who could hit 80 pts each. And a potential 1st line out of this world elite playmaking center ! And a true sniper to replace Cammy.

Then, you have Pleks in a shutdown role with Giona and Leblanc.

Dump Bourque ! He's not talented enough to be a problem child.
That would be frankly amazing. In the regular season at the very least (and they could honestly surprise in the playoffs). We could ice an all-russian powerplay with those 3 and Markov&Emelin.

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole (will produce consistantly)
Semin-Grigo-Radulov (can bite you in the ass if you're not careful)
Eller-Plekanec-Gionta (elite level shutdown ability)
White+ other non nonsense gritty people on the fourth line

Theres still a lot of character on this lineup and certainly a lot of talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever
I understand Parise is a good skill/character guy, but we can't afford to trade or have resources to aquire that kind of talent;
He's a free agent. We need to throw him a monstrous contract offer.

Ideally we need to attract a free agent top6 winger. First choice would be Parise obviously, second is Semin and third would be Parenteau.

It might actually be better to get Parenteau cheaper and sign a top4 defensemen. What about Pitkanen? He's amazing in EHM07!


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 05-17-2012 at 10:44 PM.
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05-18-2012, 08:00 AM
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I am totally in. The Rams are the pinnacle of success in football after all.

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05-18-2012, 10:03 AM
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Hey there...

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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I am totally in. The Rams are the pinnacle of success in football after all.
Ya, its always nice to criticize organization from distance, but have you wondered about how Chicago, washington, Florida was depleted few years ago, and see the turn around;
Something changed in those organization before success arrived; so, I hope very much that this change here with habs will bring positive outcome for our organization.

Rams won a superbowl, and then they got some horrible management over the years that put emphasize on character and class, and really couldn't muster up any success, which the new front office is trying to change, and I like what they are doing, and that what I'd like to see with habs; would you be OK if we acquired the assets like they did after draft day?

I like aggresive GM that likes to go after talent, and create for strong team culture.

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05-18-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
Hello guys, it seems st.Louise had been drafting based on Character but just last draft they let loose with new Front Office and took risk with less character guys to get huge talent in the draft.

Now, this seems to be our Achilles heels as we have actually let go lot of guys with so called character problems, and other teams have taken full advantage, and these players have blossomed else where
Can you be specific about what players you are actually referencing here?

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05-18-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
How about we look for a mix of both? you don't need choir boys but having guys with the right attitude makes a difference.
It certainly does

Anyone who tell you otherwise has never played hockey or team sports on a competitive level.

The Rangers of the early 2000s are a good exemple of this. Loaded with talent but with a country club mentality. Result ? A complete mess from top to bottom

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05-18-2012, 11:26 AM
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oh, the guys working out elsewhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habtacular View Post
Can you be specific about what players you are actually referencing here?
are Sergei Kostitsyn, Grabowski, Hainsey, Higgins, Ribeiro, Chipchura, Mcdonagh, D'agostini, Latendresse.

In all this trades we lost, and I'm not even counting the rentals we got for all those 2nd rounder, but still, we have given away lot of talent and rarely received a fair or better return because we choose to only deal when player development starts to fail or they misbehave.

The common trend seems to be we always seem to get fleeced in a trade and usually we try to fill that mistake by signing UFA; like when we signed all those free agents when we wanted to take another direction; why can't TEAM DEVELOPMENT AND progression come from winthin?

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05-18-2012, 11:26 AM
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Depends on the issues. Montreal isn't the right city if the issue is partying.

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05-18-2012, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
are Sergei Kostitsyn, Grabowski, Hainsey, Higgins, Ribeiro, Chipchura, Mcdonagh, D'agostini, Latendresse.

In all this trades we lost, and I'm not even counting the rentals we got for all those 2nd rounder, but still, we have given away lot of talent and rarely received a fair or better return because we choose to only deal when player development starts to fail or they misbehave.

The common trend seems to be we always seem to get fleeced in a trade and usually we try to fill that mistake by signing UFA; like when we signed all those free agents when we wanted to take another direction; why can't TEAM DEVELOPMENT AND progression come from winthin?
Koistitsyn, grabovski, and Ribero are the only three of that bunch that jump out at me as being traded because of character. Maybe add Cammelleri.

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05-18-2012, 11:33 AM
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I see posts discussing Radulov-Grigorenko-Semin as a possible line. On paper, and on NHL 12, I'm sure that line is perfect. But realistlicly, do you really want to have a new NHLer grouped up with two guys who have reported character problems?

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05-18-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
are Sergei Kostitsyn, Grabowski, Hainsey, Higgins, Ribeiro, Chipchura, Mcdonagh, D'agostini, Latendresse.
Eh, what? Your OP was talking about a change of drafting strategy and then you give me as an example a bunch of players that we did draft.

Slightly confused now.

And the majority of those were not shipped out for 'character' reasons in any case.

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