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Which system do you prefer?

View Poll Results: Which system do you prefer?
Lavy's (Capitals pond hockey) 46 54.76%
Defense First (something that resembles forwards playing some sort of defensive system) 38 45.24%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-16-2012, 12:07 AM
  #101
GoneFullHextall
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what did John Stevens coaching defense first get him? getting our ***** kicked by Pittsburgh twice.
The guy was not a good head coach. I think hes a good assistant coach and thats fine. Head Coach? no. People thought Bill Barber was a good head coach too. how much work has he got since the Flyers fired him?

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05-16-2012, 12:10 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Which half of the Rangers team is the rookies?
In dude's defense, I see his point.

If you were to ask me to name as many players as I can off that roster who have been a part of any kind of "run," I would come up with Richards and Feds and draw a huge blank after that.

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05-16-2012, 12:12 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpyD View Post
In dude's defense, I see his point.

If you were to ask me to name as many players as I can off that roster who have been a part of any kind of "run," I would come up with Richards and Feds and draw a huge blank after that.
The same can be said for LA, Phoenix, and most of NJ's roster.

You can learn to play NHL hockey outside of deep playoff runs.

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05-16-2012, 12:17 AM
  #104
TheLegendkiller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Since you're late to the party or haven't been reading the entire thread, allow me to update you. The central theme here is that the Flyers are 0-13 in the last two playoff seasons when scoring less than four goals.

The score of the elimination game with the Pens was 5-1. We scored more than 4, so we won.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Oh, and once you're in your second year you aren't inexperienced anymore. I didn't know only rookies could be inexperienced.

Sorry I forgot about all those deep playoff runs a majority of the Ranger players have been through during their careers. I must have confused them with the Red Wings.

Let me tell you right now before you start believing in your own genius. You're implying that John Stevens' "system" is what you want to see? Cause John Stevens' "system" and personnel is what got the Flyers to the finals and will ultimately bring the organization more success? This is what you're saying.

Implying that Stevens >> Lavy anything is like saying Bret Ratner >> Christopher Nolan. I orginally thought you were somebody I should consider not listening to or take seriously now I know I shouldn't listen to or take you seriously.


Last edited by TheLegendkiller: 05-16-2012 at 12:33 AM.
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05-16-2012, 12:31 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Let me tell you right now before you start believing in your own genius. You're implying that John Stevens' "system" is what you want to see? Cause John Stevens' "system" and personnel is what got the Flyers to the finals and will ultimately bring the organization more success? This is what you're saying.

Implying that Stevens >> Lavy anything is like saying Bret Ratner >> Christopher Nolan. I orginally thought you were somebody I should consider not listening to or take seriously not I know I shouldn't listen to or take you seriously.
I am convinced hes JXC's twin brother or something. They both think alike.

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05-16-2012, 12:35 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The same can be said for LA, Phoenix, and most of NJ's roster.

You can learn to play NHL hockey outside of deep playoff runs.
NJ, yes. The other two not as much.

But I don't even know where this is going, so yay.

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Old
05-16-2012, 12:52 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
With Steven's players who were taught how to play defensive hockey.
First there is a difference between teaching a player how to play hockey and the system a coach uses. Most of the players learned how to play defense long before coming to the Flyers Timonen, Pronger, Betts, Hartnell, Gagne, etc. (or never really learned in some cases like Briere). A few there were a few players that he would have had more of an impact on like Richards and Carter, but even they had previously played under Hitchcock who we could theoretically give credit too. But Carter was ok defensively nothing to write home about. Richards while he defenatly has improved over the years has been known to be good defensively going back to his junior days. Besides the Flyers let up less goals per game in 2009-10 after Lavi took over. Last year with the Flyers playing Lavi's system for the whole season they allowed less goals (223 GA) season than any season that Stevens coach during (225 GA being the least amount they gave up during a season he coach during which is the one he was fired during).



Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Wrong. Lavy has a voice, and a strong one at that, when it comes to personnel on this team.
Sure the coach has input no decent GM would make decisions like that with out finding out watch the coach things. But in no way is the coach the final say on personnel decisions. Heck in some cases the GM isn't even calling the shoots Snider (Bryz)


Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
LOL. Yeah it's the goalie's fault when we can't score four goals. This team is not built and does not play a style that can win tight checking, low scoring, playoff hockey. 0-13 the last two years in the playoffs proves that.

Was it the goalies fault when we lost two 1-0 games in the Buffalo series last year?
Did I say that it was only the goalies fault? No I did not, but the goal tending has been awful the last two years in the playoffs and was arguable the biggest reason (not the only). There is a reason that Boucher and Leighton weren't on the Flyers this year (in large part because they were awful in the playoffs last year), as was Bob who is still just a back up goal. In the Devils series Bryz was decent, but even then he cost the team goals. In the Penguins series he made some good saves at times they needed too, but overall it was a pretty mediocre performance.

In the last two playoffs the goalies combine for a 3.54 GAA (3.8 GAA not counting the two 1-0 games) which is not good enough. Even worse their combine goals against average over the last two playoffs was a combine .886% which would qualify as average, if you're talking about a goalie in the 1980s (even then this was only average not even good). Today the average save percentage is around .913%. So the goal tending was literally below average not even a little below. With stats like that indeed they would need to score 4 goals to compensate for the inadequacies of the goal tending. I agree the team isn't constructed to win tight checking games with Pronger (and Mez and Grossman). I expect the GM to address this personnel issue in the off season. But the goal tending has been well below average in the playoffs that is a fact.


Last edited by whatthef: 05-16-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 12:55 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Let me tell you right now before you start believing in your own genius. You're implying that John Stevens' "system" is what you want to see? Cause John Stevens' "system" and personnel is what got the Flyers to the finals and will ultimately bring the organization more success? This is what you're saying.
Don't know who's a** you pulled that out of. Never said anything about a John Stevens system. The personnel on his team is what got to the finals in spite of Lavy's system.

Since Lavy and Homer have been able to reshape the roster and pond hockey has gotten us further away from defense first hockey, we are going backwards in the playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Implying that Stevens >> Lavy anything is like saying Bret Ratner >> Christopher Nolan. I orginally thought you were somebody I should consider not listening to or take seriously now I know I shouldn't listen to or take you seriously.

Never implied or said anything close to that. Defense first hockey >> Lavy pond hockey

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05-16-2012, 12:58 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Which half of the Rangers team is the rookies?

Again, sorry I forgot about all those deep playoff runs a majority of the Ranger players have been through during their careers, and their average age of 35. I must have confused them with the Red Wings.

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05-16-2012, 01:15 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Again, sorry I forgot about all those deep playoff runs a majority of the Ranger players have been through during their careers, and their average age of 35. I must have confused them with the Red Wings.
What difference does it make? They aren't a bunch of rookies. There's a load of difference between guys in their first ever year and NHL vets, especially in the playoffs. Deep runs don't matter as much as general NHL experience. An injured Kovalchuk seems to be doing just fine, for instance.

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05-16-2012, 03:07 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
One would be hard-pressed to name two Flyers who have gotten better defensively under Laviolette.
It wasn't that hard. I probably could name more but this seemed sufficient.

Giroux

Briere - he's still not good, but he is better than he was

Couturier - He's a rookie but he definitely played better defensively at the end of the season than at the beginning

Voracek - I didn't see him a whole lot while he was in Columbus, but from what I did see and reports I've heard from others he seems to have improved.

Coburn

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05-16-2012, 07:56 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
What difference does it make? They aren't a bunch of rookies. There's a load of difference between guys in their first ever year and NHL vets, especially in the playoffs. Deep runs don't matter as much as general NHL experience. An injured Kovalchuk seems to be doing just fine, for instance.
Yeah, Kreider and Hagelin look real lost out there.

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05-16-2012, 10:11 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
And what are the Rangers a bunch of grizzled veterans? They have plenty of youth and inexperience as well. Just cause you're a young team doesn't mean you can't have success. They also play a better system and are better coached.



Every year though (99% of the time) the winning formula starts with defense first.
The Rangers have a young team that is true, but if you don't think they haven't shown some signs of that in their two 7-game series so far I don't know. For a 1st place team they've been quite shaky in these playoffs despite reaching the ECF. Most of us around here didn't expect the Flyers to go deep this year, and the inexperience factor was a big reason for that. I don't see how novel that is.

Playing good defense is often a prerequisite for winning a championship, but that doesn't mean that it is necessary to have a system that preaches defense first. If you'd been around for this year or longer, you might have grown tired of my posts about our forwards bad backchecking. That is not something that (always) is due to the system that we're playing, but because we have a couple of forwards who are simply not that good defensively (Jagr, Brière, JvR) or more or less average. We could perhaps sign someone that is a little bit better in that regard this offseason, and then our young guys will hopefully get better at it as well. That should fix a lot of the problems we've had I believe.

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05-16-2012, 10:38 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah, Kreider and Hagelin look real lost out there.
You're obviously not biased.

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05-16-2012, 11:56 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Since you're late to the party or haven't been reading the entire thread, allow me to update you. The central theme here is that the Flyers are 0-13 in the last two playoff seasons when scoring less than four goals.

The score of the elimination game with the Pens was 5-1. We scored more than 4, so we won.
Thanks for your update. There are 2 stories to that 5-1 score. While it does fit the "Flyers only win when they score more than 4" stat, that straight vertical line on the Penguins' scoresheet demonstrated a very good team game that took it to the Penguins offensively and defensively. My point was that the Flyers do have the potential to shut down a team.

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05-16-2012, 12:13 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah, Kreider and Hagelin look real lost out there.
Any team can absorb two rookies into a lineup. 7+ is a totally different matter.

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05-16-2012, 12:50 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Any team can absorb two rookies into a lineup. 7+ is a totally different matter.
but its Laviolette's fault for this seasons failures. Its his fault we had so many injuries and had to use so many inexperienced players. and yet we managed to get to the 2nd round with so many injuries and inconsistant goaltending.

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05-17-2012, 07:09 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
but its Laviolette's fault for this seasons failures. Its his fault we had so many injuries and had to use so many inexperienced players. and yet we managed to get to the 2nd round with so many injuries and inconsistant goaltending.
Yeah, second round. Lets celebrate that!

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05-17-2012, 07:27 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah, second round. Lets celebrate that!
All's i knows is....I already miss the Flyers an insane amount and were still not outta THIS season. Sucks so bad this year worse than others for some reason. painful.

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05-17-2012, 08:35 PM
  #120
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All's i knows is....I already miss the Flyers an insane amount and were still not outta THIS season. Sucks so bad this year worse than others for some reason. painful.
When is it not painful when we get knocked out? Seems like heart breakers is all we get lately. Why cant we ever go out after a hard fought series where we fall a little short in a game 6 or 7 like Washington this year?

The Devils and Bruins series were tough pills to swallow the last two years!

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05-18-2012, 12:27 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Yeah, second round. Lets celebrate that!
who the **** is celebrating?

So lets fire Laviolette and hire a defensive minded coach. Rumor has it your boy John Stevens was one lets bring him back. Forgot about all the success he brought the Flyers
Would a defensive minded coach be under the same scruntiny from you if 3 or 4 years under said coach we are not getting out of round 1 or 2? or are defensive minded coaches exempt from fault.

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05-18-2012, 05:22 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
but its Laviolette's fault for this seasons failures. Its his fault we had so many injuries and had to use so many inexperienced players. and yet we managed to get to the 2nd round with so many injuries and inconsistant goaltending.
Injuries aren't the reason we had so many rookies in the lineup. It's because we blew up the forward group.

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05-18-2012, 06:23 AM
  #123
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To be honest, I didn't expect our rookies to perform this well this season. I maybe expected Flyers to squeek into the playoffs. I was so satisfied they went to 2nd round beating a team like Pens, anything that happened after that, I could not be mad at.

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05-18-2012, 08:17 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
who the **** is celebrating?
Plenty of people around these parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
So lets fire Laviolette and hire a defensive minded coach.
If we keep getting our a**es handed to us in the second round each year it will happen sooner than you think. I don't mind Lavy as the coach if he makes a stronger commitment to defense first instead of this pond hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Rumor has it your boy John Stevens was one lets bring him back.
Yes he was. If Lavy wont change his system to stress more defense first, any defensive minded coach will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Forgot about all the success he brought the Flyers
WOW, Lavy got one round further than Stevens did here, and Lavy did it with Stevens players. Since the lucky run to the finals, two embarrassing second round exits and an 0-13 record when scoring less than four goals.

This team is not built and does not play a style to consistently have deep playoff runs. Helen Keller and Stevie Wonder could see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Would a defensive minded coach be under the same scruntiny from you if 3 or 4 years under said coach we are not getting out of round 1 or 2? or are defensive minded coaches exempt from fault.
No. Only if he was severely out coached like Lavy was in the 2nd round, and/or was unwilling to bend when it comes to changing the way we play to achieve more success.

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05-18-2012, 09:40 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraLupin View Post
To be honest, I didn't expect our rookies to perform this well this season. I maybe expected Flyers to squeek into the playoffs. I was so satisfied they went to 2nd round beating a team like Pens, anything that happened after that, I could not be mad at.
I am. Not with the result, but with the way the Flyers lost.

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