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Old
05-17-2012, 06:49 PM
  #26
MurrayBannerman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan1el View Post
So what your saying is that Toews outperformed someone who played a whopping 62 and 60 games?
Toews had .95 PPG and .89 PPG whereas Spezza had .91 and .95 at much lower quality defense and higher age.

Oh, and Toews was captain of a Stanley Cup Champion team.

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Old
05-17-2012, 07:02 PM
  #27
LeX4cavalier
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Toews is one of my least favorite players in the NHL, and I'd much rather have him instead of Spezza. The players voted Toews as the 5th best player in the NHL, and Spezza as 39th, so obviously it's Spezza and it's not even close. Why should I listen to the guys that play against them for a living instead of a random Sens fan? Toews and Spezza's ppg over the last couple of seasons are really close, while Toews is 10x better defensively. It really is Toews ainec. Also, lol at Kyle Turris being as good defensively as Selke finalist Toews, Turris hasn't even been top 50 in Selke voting ever, and is only 1 year younger than Toews.

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Old
05-17-2012, 07:09 PM
  #28
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Ahahaha, not happening. Spezza will never become a blackhawk, especially not for that return

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Old
05-17-2012, 07:26 PM
  #29
MurrayBannerman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
Toews is one of my least favorite players in the NHL, and I'd much rather have him instead of Spezza. The players voted Toews as the 5th best player in the NHL, and Spezza as 39th, so obviously it's Spezza and it's not even close. Why should I listen to the guys that play against them for a living instead of a random Sens fan? Toews and Spezza's ppg over the last couple of seasons are really close, while Toews is 10x better defensively. It really is Toews ainec. Also, lol at Kyle Turris being as good defensively as Selke finalist Toews, Turris hasn't even been top 50 in Selke voting ever, and is only 1 year younger than Toews.
For an admitted Hawks hater and Toews hater, you're very objective.

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Old
05-17-2012, 07:32 PM
  #30
Benny FTW
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Toews = Less points with better team mates. Sure hes better defensively but i want my #1 centre scoring not playing defense.

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05-17-2012, 07:46 PM
  #31
MurrayBannerman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Toews = Less points with better team mates. Sure hes better defensively but i want my #1 centre scoring not playing defense.
I like mine doing both and having incredible intangibles. But hey, it's only got us a Cup.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:03 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
Good job backing up your opinion. Thumbs up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
Are you serious? Toews ppg was only .08 less than Spezza's, while being light years ahead defensively. Not to mention that Toews has scored more points than Spezza the last 2 years, while being MUCH better defensively. He is also 5 years younger. Toews has much more value than Spezza, and this is coming from a Blackhawks/Toews hater.
I'm so sick of the whole 'Spezza/Karlsson' (take your pick) are terrible defensively. He doesn't lay anywhere near as many blind drop passes as he used to, and his (both Spezza and Karlsson) defensive game has improved leaps and bounds this year. Does Spezza have giveaways? Sure, but he has a lot of takeaways too. Any top flight offensive player will have more giveaways than less skilled players, because they have the puck more than less skilled players. It's really that simple. Look at the giveaways of players like Mr. NHL, Sidney Crosby, and other top offensive players, and they all will have lots of giveaways, often more than Spezza. This is to say that Spezza's defensive game is far better than its ever been. Toews is better than Spezza defensively, but its much closer there than the difference in their offensive games. And lets not forget, the OP is a Hawks fan wanting Spezza, not a Sens fan wanting Toews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
Toews had .95 PPG and .89 PPG whereas Spezza had .91 and .95 at much lower quality defense and higher age.

Oh, and Toews was captain of a Stanley Cup Champion team.
You are helping my argument here. Toews has had a championship calibre team around him. Spezza has had a team around him looking more and more like an AHL team. He made Colin freakin' Greening into a top liner for a time, a guy that probably should be in the AHL, and is most definitely not an NHL top liner. Spezza makes those around him better, and puts up superior numbers, despite being our only threat on many nights. Toews has a great team around him, therefore great insulation, and still can't post Spezza numbers.

You want the 4th highest scorer in the NHL, who is also our best player? You overpay (which means a legit top line center and more coming back), or he doesn't move. It's really that simple.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:14 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
I like mine doing both and having incredible intangibles. But hey, it's only got us a Cup.
intangibles. intangibles are meaningless, it did not win you a cup, a good team did that. A team of many players.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:27 PM
  #34
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Almost as bad as the couturier for booth trade. You just need to add the RFA rights to karlsson.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:30 PM
  #35
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Sweet another "What, you dont like our offer for player X? That is okay cause player X sucks!" thread.

I love these.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:37 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Good job backing up your opinion. Thumbs up.



I'm so sick of the whole 'Spezza/Karlsson' (take your pick) are terrible defensively. He doesn't lay anywhere near as many blind drop passes as he used to, and his (both Spezza and Karlsson) defensive game has improved leaps and bounds this year. Does Spezza have giveaways? Sure, but he has a lot of takeaways too. Any top flight offensive player will have more giveaways than less skilled players, because they have the puck more than less skilled players. It's really that simple. Look at the giveaways of players like Mr. NHL, Sidney Crosby, and other top offensive players, and they all will have lots of giveaways, often more than Spezza. This is to say that Spezza's defensive game is far better than its ever been. Toews is better than Spezza defensively, but its much closer there than the difference in their offensive games. And lets not forget, the OP is a Hawks fan wanting Spezza, not a Sens fan wanting Toews.



You are helping my argument here. Toews has had a championship calibre team around him. Spezza has had a team around him looking more and more like an AHL team. He made Colin freakin' Greening into a top liner for a time, a guy that probably should be in the AHL, and is most definitely not an NHL top liner. Spezza makes those around him better, and puts up superior numbers, despite being our only threat on many nights. Toews has a great team around him, therefore great insulation, and still can't post Spezza numbers.

You want the 4th highest scorer in the NHL, who is also our best player? You overpay (which means a legit top line center and more coming back), or he doesn't move. It's really that simple.
Toews' ppg over the last 4 seasons=0.91. Spezza's= 0.94. Are you really saying that the difference between an average/above average defensive forward to one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL, is much closer than a .03 ppg difference over the last 4 seasons?

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:38 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
intangibles. intangibles are meaningless, it did not win you a cup, a good team did that. A team of many players.
He did win the Conn Smythe...

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05-17-2012, 08:50 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
Toews' ppg over the last 4 seasons=0.91. Spezza's= 0.94. Are you really saying that the difference between an average/above average defensive forward to one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL, is much closer than a .03 ppg difference over the last 4 seasons?
No, I'm saying the offensive difference between the two is a lot more than 0.03 PPG, when you consider the teams they had around them to support them. Last I checked, hockey is a team game.

Player who scores 0.94 PPG with AHL linemates like Greening and Butler

>>

Player who scores 0.91 PPG with a championship team and linemates

especially when there isn't a huge difference in their defensive games.

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Old
05-17-2012, 08:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
No, I'm saying the offensive difference between the two is a lot more than 0.03 PPG, when you consider the teams they had around them to support them. Last I checked, hockey is a team game.

Player who scores 0.94 PPG with AHL linemates like Greening and Butler

>>

Player who scores 0.91 PPG with a championship team and linemates

especially when there isn't a huge difference in their defensive games.
He also plays with Erik Karlsson, who had more points than any of Toews' teammates this year. Also, there is a huge difference in their defensive games. Toews was 2nd in Selke voting last year, and 4th the year before. I don't think Spezza has ever been in the top 40 for Selke Voting. I think the difference between one of the best defensive forwards, and someone who's average/above average is pretty big.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:02 PM
  #40
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I think the difference between Toews and Spezza definitely isnt Lehner/Bishop and 15th overall this year

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by h2owned View Post
I think the difference between Toews and Spezza definitely isnt Lehner/Bishop and 15th overall this year
Murray wouldn't do it, but if i'm Bowman than I wouldn't take anything less than that.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Sweet another "What, you dont like our offer for player X? That is okay cause player X sucks!" thread.

I love these.
Second only to the "Our best player is worth just as much as your best player. Actually more" threads.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:10 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeX4cavalier View Post
He also plays with Erik Karlsson, who had more points than any of Toews' teammates this year. Also, there is a huge difference in their defensive games. Toews was 2nd in Selke voting last year, and 4th the year before. I don't think Spezza has ever been in the top 40 for Selke Voting. I think the difference between one of the best defensive forwards, and someone who's average/above average is pretty big.
It also happens to be more the Toews has ever gotten, in his whole career.

What we're trying to say is that 0.91 ppg with Kane, Hossa and Sharp being rotated through his line and keeping up excellent defence is not as good as 0.94 ppg playing with Butler, Greening and Michalek, with good defence. Plus, making those players look like stars.

And you act as if Toews single-handedly put the team on his back and carried them to the cup final. TEAMS win cups, teams with players like Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Byfuglien.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:15 PM
  #44
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Toews totally outclassed everyone on team Canada during the Olympics, he won best forward there too.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:26 PM
  #45
LeX4cavalier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan1el View Post
It also happens to be more the Toews has ever gotten, in his whole career.

What we're trying to say is that 0.91 ppg with Kane, Hossa and Sharp being rotated through his line and keeping up excellent defence is not as good as 0.94 ppg playing with Butler, Greening and Michalek, with good defence. Plus, making those players look like stars.

And you act as if Toews single-handedly put the team on his back and carried them to the cup final. TEAMS win cups, teams with players like Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Byfuglien.
He was the Blackhawks captain and also the mvp, if you replaced Toews with Spezza, i don't think the Blackhawks would have won the cup.

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Old
05-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Toews = Less points with better team mates. Sure hes better defensively but i want my #1 centre scoring not playing defense.
Then you have what you want...

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Old
05-17-2012, 10:23 PM
  #47
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Then you have what you want...
Yes, and we will more than gladly keep him.

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Old
05-17-2012, 10:36 PM
  #48
Marvelous Manked
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Awful.

We give up our goaltender of the future, in addition to the heart of the Ottawa Senators.

At least we're not givin...oh wai...no...no way...you serious?

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Old
05-23-2012, 12:09 AM
  #49
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Spezza is amazing and underrated, but come on guys. Toews is captain everything, way younger and he's one of those guys who can just do it all.
As for the proposal it's awful.

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Old
05-23-2012, 12:14 AM
  #50
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Toews > Spezza. Easily.

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