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Old
05-18-2012, 09:42 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
This is your exact quote:

"I challenge you to compare Fisher or Legwand to 70% of other teams top line centers. They do not even come close"

am I supposed to compare each to other teams number 1 center? or number 2? If number 1 center, of course they do not put up the same numbers. I think you would be shocked to see how each of them puts up 2nd line center points.

You said they don't match up with the top 70% of the leagues top 2 centers. Your opinion is a false description of them. In fact if you go to nhl.com and filter the stats by centers, Legwand is 27th and Fisher 30th in points for a center. Last I checked their were 30 teams in the league, with 2 centers per top 6, so, help me here, I haven't had to complete a math problem without a calculator for a bit, that is 60 centers. So to be in the bottom 30 percent they would have to be ranked 43rd or worse, right?. Tell me what I am missing here.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary
Exactly i said to compare Legwand --->or<--- Fisher to other teams top line centers. I have not been to a math class in awhile either but i do believe top line centers would be teams -->#1<-- center. So if you compare either Fisher or Legwand to other teams top #1 center i will use your words "of course they do not put up the same numbers"

Again you said quoted me in saying: " I challenge you to compare Fisher or Legwand to 70% of other teams top line centers. They do not even come close. "

I never said compare them to the leagues top 2 centers. You did that on your own from the start trying to justify your opinion that we do not have a need for a legit #1 center.

That is what you are missing on that issue. I am still waiting on your response to the other issues you said i was not correct about.

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05-18-2012, 10:03 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Exactly i said to compare Legwand --->or<--- Fisher to other teams top line centers. I have not been to a math class in awhile either but i do believe top line centers would be teams -->#1<-- center. So if you compare either Fisher or Legwand to other teams top #1 center i will use your words "of course they do not put up the same numbers"

Again you said quoted me in saying: " I challenge you to compare Fisher or Legwand to 70% of other teams top line centers. They do not even come close. "

I never said compare them to the leagues top 2 centers. You did that on your own from the start trying to justify your opinion that we do not have a need for a legit #1 center.

That is what you are missing on that issue. I am still waiting on your response to the other issues you said i was not correct about.
Ok, so we had the #27 and #30 centers last year. There were a few teams that had two or more centers better than #27. So that makes our #1 center (Legwand) better than the #1 center on 9 other teams. Not very good. Our #2 center (Fisher) did better than the #2 centers on 24 other teams. Pretty decent, but not top of the pack either. Legward was better than the #2 center on 25 teams. Sounds to me like we need a legitimate #1.

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05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
  #203
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centers is plural, as in more than 1, no?

no one ever said either was a number one center. Having 2 2nd line centers who rank midpack with the other teams top two centers make the need for having a number one center not as great as it is for a replacement for Suter maybe, or maybe an upgrade from Gabriel Bourque on the wing.

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05-18-2012, 10:33 AM
  #204
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Oh really so when have players reached their potential 30? SK has had 5 solid years in the NHL with 3 of them being sent back and forth to the AHL.Sounds like a young player who needed to mature a bit rather than rushed. His last 18 playoff games have resulted in 1 goal and 6 assists. Can not argue that. Results offensively are unacceptable.
It sounds like to me you are coming up with excuses. SK is 30yo with a lot of playing time. No reason what so ever in what he turns into during long periods in the season and when stuff is on the line. I would rather pay someone else who is going to atleast contribute all year not a game here or there and disappear when it counts.

no excuse anywhere. I stated the fact he is young and needed to mature. I will be happy to pay 2.5 million for .5 point per game production, a good penalty killer, and a guy who can step in numerous spots on the PP. good luck finding that on the market for cheaper.

Exactly Legwand is a "serviceable" 2nd line center. That means yeah he can fill in if you do not have someone else. Maybe I misspoke. David Legwand is a NHL caliber second line centerman in the NHL you just can't plug someone in that role.

Legwand is a 3rd line center at best. Everyone in the NHL knows he is not a threat 90% of the time and is going to pass it off to someone else. Can he get in the right spots for rebounds if not challenged, yes. Can he hit open nets at the end of games, yes. Can he do the same move in shootouts and get goals, yes. Other than that a lot of guys can bring what he brings to the table these days.

third line center who is in top 30 for points in the league? Yes please. I can't beleive you think he is a 3rd line center "at best" He is a serviceable (meaning he fits the role) 2nd line centerman.

The debate is about are need for a top line center and you just admitted yourself that you would be happy with Fisher in a 3rd center role and that Legwand is a serviceable 2nd line center. So again who is are legit number 1 center? At some point you will figure out this team is built from the goal out. We have 3 lines we roll that can all do damage.I am well aware this team is built from the goal out. I am aware that this team is big on defense and goaltending. I am also aware we have several lines that can do damage but you did not answer the ? A lot of typing but no answer to the ? at hand.

I did say I would be happy with Fisher in a 3rd line role. I am also happy with him in a top 6 role. You say you understand how the team is built, but I think your wants for the team differ from what the team will need come the draft and July 1

Lol you can compare points and i will argue compare the talent they are working with. Kopitar is head and shoulders better than any center we currently have and he is 24. The numbers compare with Richards but none of are guys touch Kopitar, sorry. I never said Kopitar sucked. I pointed out our two centers are not as bad as what you think. What are you going to point out talent wise? Jeff Carter and Dustin Brown are bums? They each have a running mate.

Dustin Brown was on the trading block in Feb. Jeff Carter got on the team in Feb. Kopitar is the one with the majority of the numbers. I never said i thought are centers were bad. I clearly said they are not 1st and 2nd line centers. I challenge you to compare Fisher or Legwand to 70% of other teams top line centers. They do not even come close.

I think this is beaten to death. you want to compare one or the other to Top line centers, I want to compare them in a top six, team absed capacity. To each his or her own. it is idiotic to compare wither to the stamkos of the world. you might as well compare a mid pack top pair to Weber and Suter and ignore the rest of the unit.

Im sorry but having a top center talent like Kopitar and having the ability to put guys in a correct balance position would be worth the extra 4 million. What are you going to give big money to SK? Never said that. How did the big money tandem of Datsyuk and Zetterburg work out? Or Crosby and Malkin? or Sedin and Kesler? Phoenix is getting by just fine with Antoinne vermette and Martin Hanzel. Back the truck up for those guys. Ill tell you how it worked out. They scored but could not stop anyone else from scoring more. Tell me a playoff game were they scored 1 goal in 2 games? Who are you going to give the money to? How did Fisher, SK, and Legwand work out for the Preds?

well, it worked out into the 2nd round. Better than 22 other teams. And in games 4 and 5, the biggest game of the season for Detroit, Datsyuk and Zetterburg combined for 0 goals and could not hold David Legwand off the scoreboard.

No this teams play did not cloud anyones mind of what this team truly is. The five game sample vs Detroit, we were world beaters, which we weren't. The five game sample vs PHO we were trash, which we aren't. The season ends with a loss or missed playoffs for 29 teams. We were better than all but what 4 or 5 teams in the reg season. and better than all but 6 in the playoffs? That is a successful year. It ended bittersweetly, but a good year. All the lucky puck bounces and puck luck stopped after the Detroit series and we got shut down and guys like Legwand, Fisher, Horny, and SK got exposed big time. Exposed? how were they exposed? lack of a backcheck for two games? our whole team let down after beating Det. hell, the fanbase did too. no one here respected the coyotes. even after losing some barely do. They have had a great 15 game run here, no doubt. Did we miss open nets? yep. Did we fail to convert scoring chances? yep. But I wouldn't say they were exposed. and if they were, please be specific what they were exposed for? Give me more than just the cliche.
It was mentioned several times on TV!! that PHX was not even covering Fisher. What does that tell you? A team played hard playoff hockey defense and Legwand, Fisher, and SK could not handle it. Turnover machines. Horny can not hit the broad side of a barn bless his heart. I respected the coyotes so i would not go as far as saying "no one". Missing wide open nets and failing to convert on scoring chances was a black eye for the team all year. I challenge you to go back and either watch the games again or maybe a little closer. Why is that? Why when the defense got tighter we could not score?

we had numerous come from behind wins, and had plenty of 1 goal game wins. Had 3 one goal wins in round 1 alone. The chances we converted vs Det, and converted on most of the year, we did not vs Phoenix. It wasn't because defense got hard. Puck luck has a lot to do with winning and losing.


All the boom dones except for Webers power play were done at the trade deadline and one a couple of weeks before the playoffs. 90% of those boom dones are going to be gone this summer. The reason the PP was good was more than his shot. If you think otherwise, I beg you to actually watch the games. We had every tool we needed to make a long run. the boom done guys were a direct response to team needs. We may not need those parts in the future.
Are you serious. You are trying to tell me that are PP was not based on a point shot from Weber the majority of the time? Wow, ok. When did you see someone else score on a power play in the playoffs besides someone from far away on the point and it going in or getting deflected? I watched every single game this year many of them in person and i am very sure that are PP strength was a point shot from Weber or another man deep parallel to him. Did AK and SK hook up vs Detroit late in the year, yeah. Not sure anything else stand out where you are begging me to actually watch the games to see.

If you read what I wrote, I never said our PP was not based off of Weber's shot. I said it was good because the PP became more than just his shot. It went from 4 guys looking for a lane for him to blast pucks to guys moving without the puck. The little wrikles with Weber hopping down by the dots, Suter moving more on the PP. Teams would take away his shot, we had options. If those options do not work, the PP sucks. Our PP did a lot of good things this year. and not all because of Weber's shot.

My replies are underlined in bold
there. I countered all your points with sense

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05-18-2012, 11:03 AM
  #205
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Damn that post is getting hard to follow...

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05-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #206
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05-18-2012, 11:25 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
centers is plural, as in more than 1, no?

no one ever said either was a number one center. Having 2 2nd line centers who rank midpack with the other teams top two centers make the need for having a number one center not as great as it is for a replacement for Suter maybe, or maybe an upgrade from Gabriel Bourque on the wing.
Yes centers is plural. Should i have typed compare Legwand or Fisher to other top line center in the league?

This whole discussion was about whether the team needs a number #1 or not. You posted your opinion and threw Legwand and Fishers numbers together trying to support your argument. The discussion is not about what Legwand and Fisher did with their numbers combined. The facts are if you watched this team with your own eyes you would clearly understand that both Legwand and Fisher do not fit the MO for a number #1 center in the NHL. The stats back up the eye test.

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05-18-2012, 11:37 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Yes centers is plural. Should i have typed compare Legwand or Fisher to other top line center in the league?

This whole discussion was about whether the team needs a number #1 or not. You posted your opinion and threw Legwand and Fishers numbers together trying to support your argument. The discussion is not about what Legwand and Fisher did with their numbers combined. The facts are if you watched this team with your own eyes you would clearly understand that both Legwand and Fisher do not fit the MO for a number #1 center in the NHL. The stats back up the eye test.
who said they did? no one said either was a #1. The way this team is made, it does not NEED a true number 1 center. This system works with the centers we have. Defensivly responsible with the ability to net 50 points a year. What you want is a finisher. A sniper. that is still the team's biggest need. That guy can be on the wing or in the middle. I prefer the wing. Then that sniper doesn't have the defensive responsibilities the centermen do here on this team.

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05-18-2012, 04:11 PM
  #209
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who said they did? no one said either was a #1. The way this team is made, it does not NEED a true number 1 center. This system works with the centers we have. Defensivly responsible with the ability to net 50 points a year. What you want is a finisher. A sniper. that is still the team's biggest need. That guy can be on the wing or in the middle. I prefer the wing. Then that sniper doesn't have the defensive responsibilities the centermen do here on this team.
Ability to net 50 points a year? Until this year Legwand has netted over 50 points 1 time and that was the 2006-2007 season. He has been playing very regularly since 2000-2001. As far as Fisher goes he hit over 50 points once in Ottawa before this year..

You said: "as far as the we needing a top center to reach potential, the Kings top 2 centers outscored the preds by 16 points. That is Kopitar and Richards vs Fisher and Legwand 120 pts vs 104. I'm sorry, but 16 points is not worth the extra 4 million per year, which is what fishers 3.5 and (insert center fantasy here)'s 7.5 million."

Your response in bold:The debate is about are need for a top line center and you just admitted yourself that you would be happy with Fisher in a 3rd center role and that Legwand is a serviceable 2nd line center. So again who is are legit number 1 center? At some point you will figure out this team is built from the goal out. We have 3 lines we roll that can all do damage

So what are you trying to say? You are doing a lot of backtracking after the correct facts got thrown in the mix. Again the conversation was about the teams need for a legit number 1 center. A legit center on this team can be very effective if we actually had one. Look what average skilled guys like Legwand and Fisher do. Imagine what a legit 1 center could offer?

Clearly the system is not working since we have been to the playoffs now how many times? What have we got out of it but usually barely making the playoffs and getting bounced in the 2nd round?

This team desperatly needs a number 1 center who can carry the offense. Period!

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05-18-2012, 04:23 PM
  #210
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At some point you will figure out this team is built from the goal out. We have 3 lines we roll that can all do damage
Here's the problem with that formula. Pekka was an average goaltender vs Phoenix, and has not been overly amazing in the playoffs thus far in his career (Detroit was his best series).

And part two- Our 3 "scoring lines" did hardly any damage vs Phoenix (and Chicago and Vancouver).

IMO, Raulov and AK were a big reason why we were on winning side of 3-2 games for a change vs Detroit. Both are likely not to be back.

We have plenty of improvement to do if we ever plan to be an elite team.. of course this isn't even taking into account the potential loss of Suter.


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05-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #211
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Here's the problem with that formula. Pekka was an average goaltender vs Phoenix, and has not been overly amazing in the playoffs thus far in his career (Detroit was his best series).

And part two- Our 3 "scoring lines" did hardly any damage vs Phoenix (and Chicago and Vancouver).

IMO, Raulov and SK were a big reason why we were on winning side of 3-2 games for a change vs Detroit. Both are likely not to be back.

We have plenty of improvement to do if we ever plan to be an elite team.. of course this isn't even taking into account the potential loss of Suter.
This team is built from the goal out but by god if the goalie gives up 2 goals you have to have the guys who can answer when a team actually plays defense.
You mean AK because you knew SK was on the ice offensively like once the whole playoffs.

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05-18-2012, 05:11 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Here's the problem with that formula. Pekka was an average goaltender vs Phoenix, and has not been overly amazing in the playoffs thus far in his career (Detroit was his best series).

And part two- Our 3 "scoring lines" did hardly any damage vs Phoenix (and Chicago and Vancouver).

IMO, Raulov and SK were a big reason why we were on winning side of 3-2 games for a change vs Detroit. Both are likely not to be back.

We have plenty of improvement to do if we ever plan to be an elite team.. of course this isn't even taking into account the potential loss of Suter.
Statistically Detroit was his best series, but I don't think he had to play all that well.

Performance wise, Vancouver last year was his best season, and it's not even close.

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05-18-2012, 08:01 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by VFL615 View Post
Ability to net 50 points a year? Until this year Legwand has netted over 50 points 1 time and that was the 2006-2007 season. He has been playing very regularly since 2000-2001. As far as Fisher goes he hit over 50 points once in Ottawa before this year..

You said: "as far as the we needing a top center to reach potential, the Kings top 2 centers outscored the preds by 16 points. That is Kopitar and Richards vs Fisher and Legwand 120 pts vs 104. I'm sorry, but 16 points is not worth the extra 4 million per year, which is what fishers 3.5 and (insert center fantasy here)'s 7.5 million."

Your response in bold:The debate is about are need for a top line center and you just admitted yourself that you would be happy with Fisher in a 3rd center role and that Legwand is a serviceable 2nd line center. So again who is are legit number 1 center? At some point you will figure out this team is built from the goal out. We have 3 lines we roll that can all do damage

So what are you trying to say? You are doing a lot of backtracking after the correct facts got thrown in the mix. Again the conversation was about the teams need for a legit number 1 center. A legit center on this team can be very effective if we actually had one. Look what average skilled guys like Legwand and Fisher do. Imagine what a legit 1 center could offer?

Clearly the system is not working since we have been to the playoffs now how many times? What have we got out of it but usually barely making the playoffs and getting bounced in the 2nd round?

This team desperatly needs a number 1 center who can carry the offense. Period!
I have no clue what you are asking or trying to point out at this point. I have not backtracked anything. This post is a mess. your next to last paragraph fails to recognize the progression of the franchise, as we have gone from barely making the playoffs, to being a mid conf team, to one that was happy to get to the 2nd round, to one that was disappointed not to make it out of the second round. You talk like we have been in the championship hunt for years. This is a growing franchise still. One that is taking steps forward every year.

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05-19-2012, 11:23 AM
  #214
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Erat got rocked vs Slovakia, may have concussion.


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05-19-2012, 11:26 AM
  #215
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Well that is NOT what we needed. With all the question marks around SK, AK, and Rads, Erat is the one top 6 winger we can count on.

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05-19-2012, 12:21 PM
  #216
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Well that is NOT what we needed. With all the question marks around SK, AK, and Rads, Erat is the one top 6 winger we can count on.
Czech Republic is losing 3-1 in the third now, which is good for you guys because it would mean they aren't competing for Gold and he won't play through a concussion.

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05-19-2012, 03:28 PM
  #217
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legwand and fisher both had one of their better years of their career minus leggys in 06-07 with kariya.

id expect legwand to keep his pace more than fisher. and thats saying something. we absolutely need to upgrade our top line and get a #1 center. or trotz is going to have to get over wilson's/smith's deficiencies and slot them in our top 6 and hope they develop fast

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05-19-2012, 05:35 PM
  #218
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hate to stir the pot here... but when we complain about not having real top 6 centers, then we look at Wilson and Smith who were both originally brought up as centers but converted to wing because they didn't fit in at center in the Trotz system...

well, I guess we all know where that conversation takes us, but I still think it has to be noted. Under a different coach/system we might be talking about how amazing our future is with Wilson and Smith carrying the offense from the top 6 pivot positions.

This isn't to say that either of them have earned that role yet, or proven on this level that they can produce more than Fisher or Legwand. And we'll never know the answers here, because Trotz will still be around for the foreseeable future.

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05-19-2012, 07:08 PM
  #219
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Erat got concussion suffered at World Hockey Championships today....

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05-19-2012, 09:09 PM
  #220
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Erat got concussion suffered at World Hockey Championships today....
Nice hit, too bad the puck was gone.

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05-19-2012, 09:55 PM
  #221
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Erat got concussion suffered at World Hockey Championships today....
Hopefully he'll be back at the start of the season. Any timetable?

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05-19-2012, 11:48 PM
  #222
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hate to stir the pot here... but when we complain about not having real top 6 centers, then we look at Wilson and Smith who were both originally brought up as centers but converted to wing because they didn't fit in at center in the Trotz system...

well, I guess we all know where that conversation takes us, but I still think it has to be noted. Under a different coach/system we might be talking about how amazing our future is with Wilson and Smith carrying the offense from the top 6 pivot positions.

This isn't to say that either of them have earned that role yet, or proven on this level that they can produce more than Fisher or Legwand. And we'll never know the answers here, because Trotz will still be around for the foreseeable future.
Im not sure that its because they can't play center in Trotzs system as much as it is that we already have Legwand and Fisher so if we want Wilson and Smith on a "scoring" line its going to be at wing, for now... in two years, who knows?

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05-20-2012, 08:12 AM
  #223
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Im not sure that its because they can't play center in Trotzs system as much as it is that we already have Legwand and Fisher so if we want Wilson and Smith on a "scoring" line its going to be at wing, for now... in two years, who knows?
That's true. I'm more hopeful for Smith making the move at this point though. We can't forget that Denis Arkhipov was on track to be a scoring center and flamed out, Cal O'Reilly had that potential and couldn't hang. Legwand has underwhelmed offensively (relative to his draft position). Daniel Widing, Nick Spaling, Blake Geoffrion and Austin Watson are all centers taken in the first two rounds... it's certainly not that the Preds aren't trying to add scoring up the middle, they just haven't had anything pan out yet.

We could argue that they haven't signed or traded for one, Arnott being the exception though certainly not a gamebreaker.

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05-20-2012, 10:31 PM
  #224
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http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1193607

Everyone should check this out.

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05-21-2012, 12:22 PM
  #225
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hate to stir the pot here... but when we complain about not having real top 6 centers, then we look at Wilson and Smith who were both originally brought up as centers but converted to wing because they didn't fit in at center in the Trotz system...
.
I still think Smith is destined to be our #1C, and he'll be flanked by Wilson and Rads (or Erat, if Rads doesn't sign). That may not happen until 2013/14 season, but Poile and Trotz would be fools to not be thinking that, and we may not always agree with them, but fools they aren't.

Fish is signed for several years; if we re-sign Leggy to one more deal when his is up he rolls as the #2, hopefully with Marty (cause Rads signed) and a FA sniper that we sign now. Fish centering a 3rd with Borque and rotating spot for several years (Spals, SK - now, Watson down the road) is pretty solid.

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