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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-18-2012, 08:03 AM
  #301
KaraLupin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No, Suter is not better in everything over Carle. Carle is a better point producer at Even Strength.
--You should check the talent Suter has had to work with his whole career--
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
not a player who is going to eliminate people off the puck physically. But neither is Suter
--YES SUTER DOES--
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Suter isn't significantly better there (puck battles)
--Have you actually watched some Nashville games?--.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
By the way, Bourdon is no where near the caliber of defenseman that Carle is. And in making that statement, it shows a clear bias towards Carle.
--I think u are the one showing clear bias for Carle here..--



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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No question that Suter is a better point man and has a better shot then Carle does. That's really the biggest difference between the two players.
--Sigh, you should really try to catch 20 games of Suter next season, wherever he goes--
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Also Nashville doesn't have the defensive depth that the Flyers have.[/I]
--HAHAHA, that's a good one there...--


Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Kevin Klein
Hal Gill
Francis Bouillon
Roman Josi*
Ryan Ellis*
Jack Hillen
Jonathon Blum*


VERSUS


Braydon Coburn
Matt Carle
Kimmo Timonen
Nicklas Grossmann
Andrej Meszaros
Marc-Andre Bourdon*
Erik Gustafsson*
Andreas Lilja
Pavel Kubina

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05-18-2012, 09:03 AM
  #302
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Well, I'd rather keep Mesz than Carle, but I guess that's just my personal preference.

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05-18-2012, 11:00 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
The way to look at it is this: is a top 4 of Mez, Coburn, Carle, Grossman -- long term -- good enough to win you a Cup? I don't think it is. Granted, they could trade someone (probably Mez) or one of these guys could be playing 3rd pairing (expensive), but if they sign Carle, that's our defensive core.

I don't really have anything against Carle -- I think he's better than people here say but he's far from all-world -- but I really don't think that those 4 as your 1-4 can win a Cup. Knowing Holmgren, though, our D is not going to look like that.
The thing that top 4 is missing is a bona fide #1 guy. That's what Timonen's money is for. Carle is a suitable top 4 guy so it's ok if he earns top 4 money. Timonen has been great for us but he just isn't that top end guy anymore. There's a reason Carle and Coburn played significantly more minutes this year. I don't want to imply that Timonen hasn't earned his contract because he's been great for us, but let's just say I'm thankful that his 6.3 is off the books after next year.

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05-18-2012, 11:31 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Mez actually grades out significantly better than Carle in some of the advanced stats I've been looking at lately...

For all the talk (from a few) of how supposedly great Carle is 5 on 5, Mez was actually 3rd in the NHL in points per 60 mins on ice (5v5), behind only Karlsson and Letang...Timonen is 10th...Carle comes in at 17th...

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+4+6+7+8+20+10

I think Mez is a keeper if he's fully healthy...that back thing scares me a bit. We need healthy horses...that's one thing about Carle, he's been a durable player.
Mez plays against weak competition much like he did last year.
Carle was 78th in the league in Qualcomp. He was basically used as a #3 since there are 60 top pairing defenseman in the league. Meszaros was 136th which means he was basically used as a #5 or a third pairing dman. Mez was beating up on weak competition. Carle is more important because he plays tougher minutes

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...6+63+67#snip=f

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05-18-2012, 11:35 AM
  #305
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by KaraLupin View Post
[B]


Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Kevin Klein
Hal Gill
Francis Bouillon
Roman Josi*
Ryan Ellis*
Jack Hillen
Jonathon Blum*

VERSUS

Braydon Coburn
Matt Carle
Kimmo Timonen
Nicklas Grossmann
Andrej Meszaros
Marc-Andre Bourdon*
Erik Gustafsson*
Andreas Lilja
Pavel Kubina
I don't follow. Obviously Suter and Weber are the best two defenseman, but I don't think it would be hard to make the case that, right now, the next five best are on the Flyers...

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05-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #306
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I dont want to overpay for Suter or Carle

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05-18-2012, 11:51 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
I dont want to overpay for Suter or Carle
if we want to sign a big name UFA, 99% of the time we will over pay

it's the way she goes

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05-18-2012, 12:05 PM
  #308
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I'm flabbergasted at how people on here want to get rid of Carle, yet the replacements people have talked about, Jason Garrison and Denis Wideman, are probably even worse defenders.

Do I think Matt Carle is worth 5 million bucks a year? No, not until his defensive game really solidifies. Is he worth 4 million? Absolutely. For the skill set he brings to the table, he'd definitely a 4 million a year defenseman.

Would I like Carle back? I would. He's been very receptive to the coaching he's received and he's a much better player now than he was when he first arrived. I'd love to see a real defensive expert help Matt out in terms of defensive zone play and how to tighten up his game (once again, a guy like Eric Desjardins would be fabulous in that role).

It's clear that Suter is going to be the guy who is going to command a lot of money and attention this off season. Carle will be the second most wanted defenseman after him. I'm prepared that the Flyers will lose him and will make a trade for a younger guy instead.

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05-18-2012, 12:19 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'm flabbergasted at how people on here want to get rid of Carle, yet the replacements people have talked about, Jason Garrison and Denis Wideman, are probably even worse defenders.

Do I think Matt Carle is worth 5 million bucks a year? No, not until his defensive game really solidifies. Is he worth 4 million? Absolutely. For the skill set he brings to the table, he'd definitely a 4 million a year defenseman.

Would I like Carle back? I would. He's been very receptive to the coaching he's received and he's a much better player now than he was when he first arrived. I'd love to see a real defensive expert help Matt out in terms of defensive zone play and how to tighten up his game (once again, a guy like Eric Desjardins would be fabulous in that role).

It's clear that Suter is going to be the guy who is going to command a lot of money and attention this off season. Carle will be the second most wanted defenseman after him. I'm prepared that the Flyers will lose him and will make a trade for a younger guy instead.
I dont think he is worth being paid that kind of money either. I think the media overrates him on the defensive side of the puck. He isnt that good and he is soft as hell too. Sure he blocks a lot of shots, but his positioning is below average when he is actually on his skates.
He has a below average shot and makes terrible decisions with the puck when making that first pass out of the defensive zone.
I understand its a buyers market and the Flyers are going have to make a choice to either overpay for Carle and they will have to overpay him to keep him off the market, or wait until July 1 and go after Suter or someone else. or we could make a Mez like trade.
I am just taking Holmgren's words with a grain of salt as far as what he said about Carle. its just lip service talk. This is Carle's first test test into UFA and I am sure in the end hes thinking that the Flyers will have to overpay "market value" to retain him.
I am just dreading the 7 year 40 million dollar contract with a full NTC Holmgren will give him on June 30th.

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05-20-2012, 04:59 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I don't follow. Obviously Suter and Weber are the best two defenseman, but I don't think it would be hard to make the case that, right now, the next five best are on the Flyers...
Next year alot of these guys will step up, perhaps no one reaches Coburn, Timonen status, but in 2 years certainly a couple have a shot:

Josi
Ellis
Blum
Klein

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05-20-2012, 10:11 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I never said Carle was always on the pp with G and Hartnell but he did play with them at times...similarly to how Suter wasnt always playing with weber either...
I never said that you did say that. But you clearly, and incorrectly made statements alluding to Carle's PP production and that to paraphrase. It should be higher playing with Giroux and Hartnell. When Carle spent little time on the PP with either player.

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05-20-2012, 10:27 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
You'r blaming the defensive struggles of the last 3 years on Matt Carle? Coburn and Timonen have been on the defense the last 3 years too. Do they share any of the blame?

I'm not trying to say Carle is a worldbeater in his own end. He clearly has some deficincies. However, he is an above average puck mover, is pretty underrated in his own zone, and log lot's of ice time and still be pretty effective. He's a legitimate top 4 player. He's especially valuable in Laviolette's system that puts extra emphasis on transition game and breakout passes.

Once again I would like to emphasize that sitting at home and chalking up Suter to 6.5 million on your Cap Geek roster does not automatically make him part of the team. That also does not work for Jackman, Garrison, or Just Shultz. There are not a lot of great options out there and Carle is a guy that we know has value, we know how he fits in our system, and we know he wants to sign here.

I don't get how people can be so one-sided about this. Everyone recognizes the need for bottom six forwards that can back check and play defense even though they have limited offensive contributions. Well we also need defensemen who don't treat the puck like a hand grenade.

Why do people think we can get away with a defense made up entirely of Grossmanns and Coburns? Do all of you think Timonen is still the same player he used to be? That he is going to log 25+ minutes a night and be our only puck mover? Do you think Laviolette just lost track of time and that Carle played significantly more minutes than Timonen by accident last season? We need puck movers if we are going to play a run and gun system. If you don't like the system blame Laviolette.
Finally someone who get's it. Well said.

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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I can't believe how overrated Carle is. He was clearly the worst defenseman in his own end for this team. Infact, he has been whenever he hasn't been paired with a HOF defenseman named Pronger
That is incorrect. Carle's production has been equal to or better wthout Pronger then with him. Carle is playing 25 minutes a night without Pronger. Simple question. If what you say is true. Why is the Coaching staff playing him so much. Both in the playoffs and in the regular season without Pronger?

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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Im ok with a reasonable deal for Carle....I just dont want him being signed here for big bucks as the defacto #1 / top minute guy. I'm not one of these guys who wants to see Carle gone, regardless of his demands...but I dont want to see the flyers overpay and hitch their wagon to a guy playing out of his depth...with Pronger dunzo and Timo soon to follow, the Flyers need a #1...I hope the flyers plan isn't to keep Carle playing #1 type minutes and hope for the best...
Carle is not a #1. No one including the Flyers think that he is. Carle's salary if he re-signs here won't be any where near what #1 defenseman make. But make no mistake about it. If he returns he will continue to play 20+ minutes. As a player of his acaliber and ability should see that icetime.

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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
If the stats indicate that the d was solid and Carle, its top minute guy, is considered by some (vansciver/mjl) to be "elite" and/or one of the best ES d men in the league...why not Carle as your #1?
Carle was absolutely elite in 5 on 5 play in 10/11. He led all NHL Defenseman in ES points that year. He also led all NHL players in plus games. And he was 6th in the NHL at +30. He continued this year to be one of the top NHL defenseman in ES points.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I dont think he is worth being paid that kind of money either. I think the media overrates him on the defensive side of the puck. He isnt that good and he is soft as hell too. Sure he blocks a lot of shots, but his positioning is below average when he is actually on his skates.
He has a below average shot and makes terrible decisions with the puck when making that first pass out of the defensive zone.
I understand its a buyers market and the Flyers are going have to make a choice to either overpay for Carle and they will have to overpay him to keep him off the market, or wait until July 1 and go after Suter or someone else. or we could make a Mez like trade.
I am just taking Holmgren's words with a grain of salt as far as what he said about Carle. its just lip service talk. This is Carle's first test test into UFA and I am sure in the end hes thinking that the Flyers will have to overpay "market value" to retain him.
I am just dreading the 7 year 40 million dollar contract with a full NTC Holmgren will give him on June 30th.
If Carle made terrible decisions with the puck, and his defensive positioning was below average. He wouldn't be playing the icetime he was. Carle is an excellent outlet passer and puck mover. Every time I read replies like this I wonder where it coming from. As it is incredibly innacurate.

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05-20-2012, 10:53 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by VanSciver
Carle was absolutely elite in 5 on 5 play in 10/11. He led all NHL Defenseman in ES points that year. He also led all NHL players in plus games. And he was 6th in the NHL at +30. He continued this year to be one of the top NHL defenseman in ES points.
Again, so if Carle is "elite" and one of the top NHL d men etc., why can't or shouldn't he be the team's #1 D man?


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Originally Posted by VanSciver
If Carle made terrible decisions with the puck, and his defensive positioning was below average. He wouldn't be playing the icetime he was
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver
Simple question. If what you say is true. Why is the Coaching staff playing him so much. Both in the playoffs and in the regular season without Pronger?
Sometimes players are put into roles or given minutes out of need, or lack of a better option. With Pronger out and the rest of the D pretty banged up, Carle (who was relatively healthy) was, at tiems, pressed into to the role of top minute guy for the Flyers. Kind of like how Steve Eminger played top pairing minutes for the Bolts after he was traded there for Carle. He did ok with it, but is that the ideal role for him? No. He's more of a third pairing guy who can spot into a top four role if need be. For the Flyers, Carle did what he could, but I don't think it's speaks that well for a team's D corps if he's their top minute getter. Not that it will definitely happen, but I fear that the team may just decide to pay him as such and keep him in that role.

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05-21-2012, 06:50 AM
  #314
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VanSciver what exactly are you trying to argue here?

A) Carle is a top pairing D

B) Carle is better all-around than Suter

or

C) Carle deserves a big long contract (and if so, what terms?)

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05-21-2012, 08:11 AM
  #315
VanSciver
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Again, so if Carle is "elite" and one of the top NHL d men etc., why can't or shouldn't he be the team's #1 D man?
I didn't say anywhere that Carle is an elite defenseman, or one of the top NHL d men. I said that he put up elite numbers at ES play in 10/11, so in that one specific area in that Season, he was among the elite. Reading comprehension is the key.



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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post

Sometimes players are put into roles or given minutes out of need, or lack of a better option. With Pronger out and the rest of the D pretty banged up, Carle (who was relatively healthy) was, at tiems, pressed into to the role of top minute guy for the Flyers. Kind of like how Steve Eminger played top pairing minutes for the Bolts after he was traded there for Carle. He did ok with it, but is that the ideal role for him? No. He's more of a third pairing guy who can spot into a top four role if need be. For the Flyers, Carle did what he could, but I don't think it's speaks that well for a team's D corps if he's their top minute getter. Not that it will definitely happen, but I fear that the team may just decide to pay him as such and keep him in that role.


And sometimes player are put into roles and given icetime because their level of play warrants it. And the Coaching staff trust the player and what happens when he's on the ice. So they play him more.

Are you insinuating that the only reason Carle is playing 20+ minutes a game is because the the team lacks a better option?

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Originally Posted by KaraLupin View Post
VanSciver what exactly are you trying to argue here?

A) Carle is a top pairing D

B) Carle is better all-around than Suter

or

C) Carle deserves a big long contract (and if so, what terms?)
None of the above. Although Carle is a proven #2 NHL defenseman.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-21-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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05-21-2012, 08:27 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by KaraLupin View Post
VanSciver what exactly are you trying to argue here?

A) Carle is a top pairing D

B) Carle is better all-around than Suter

or

C) Carle deserves a big long contract (and if so, what terms?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
None of the above. Although Carle is a proven #2 NHL defenseman.
My head hurts. By your statement, isn't A (and others if true) inherently true? I'm not sure what sort of sematics you're trying to employ here.

Now, the rationale discussion surrounding Matt Carle is not whether you would bring him back (anyone who suggests he isn't even a 7th defenseman is just an idiot), but rather at what cap hit and term. I would be comfortable returning Matt Carle at no more than 4 years with an average annual dollar amount not to exceed 4.1 million cap hit. Anything more than that, I let him walk.

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05-21-2012, 09:07 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
My head hurts. By your statement, isn't A (and others if true) inherently true? I'm not sure what sort of sematics you're trying to employ here.

Now, the rationale discussion surrounding Matt Carle is not whether you would bring him back (anyone who suggests he isn't even a 7th defenseman is just an idiot), but rather at what cap hit and term. I would be comfortable returning Matt Carle at no more than 4 years with an average annual dollar amount not to exceed 4.1 million cap hit. Anything more than that, I let him walk.
It's very simple. He asked me what my argument was. And my argument isn't about whether he is a top pairing defenseman. And then I simply stated that he is without a doubt a solid #2 NHL defenseman.

What are you basing that 4.1M on? Are you just pulling a number out of a hat? I read this all the time. What's the thought behind thinking that Carle is only worth 4.1M? There is no rational thought that can back that up. Not using the current NHL salary structure or comparable players. My head hurts when I read these unsupported salary suggestions.

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05-21-2012, 09:21 AM
  #318
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why are you guys wasting your time with this guy?

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05-21-2012, 09:32 AM
  #319
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why are you guys wasting your time with this guy?
Whom are you referring too?

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05-21-2012, 09:58 AM
  #320
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why are you guys wasting your time with this guy?
It's the offseason. Arguing with VanSciver about Norris Trophy Snub Matt Carle is a given at this point. He makes the same points over and over without a shred of evidence. A wall provides more of an elaborate response.

But honestly sciver, I have you on ignore but just go over to BroadStreetHockey. You will love it over there. Matt Carle is the f'ing man to them, close to a top 5 defender on the level of Chara and Lidstrom.


Last edited by sa cyred: 05-21-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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05-21-2012, 10:42 AM
  #321
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It's the offseason. Arguing with VanSciver about Norris Trophy Snub Matt Carle is a given at this point. He makes the same points over and over without a shred of evidence. A wall provides more of an elaborate response.

But honestly sciver, I have you on ignore but just go over to BroadStreetHockey. You will love it over there. Matt Carle is the f'ing man to them, close to a top 5 defender on the level of Chara and Lidstrom.
Just curious, and sorry if it's been covered, I haven't been through the entire thread...how do you view Carle, as a 1-7 D?

While I don't necessarily agree with BSH's stance, I agree with it more than I do the overwhelming public opinion that the guy is barely a bottom pairing guy. Some of that may be hyperbole however.

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05-21-2012, 10:52 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
It's the offseason. Arguing with VanSciver about Norris Trophy Snub Matt Carle is a given at this point. He makes the same points over and over without a shred of evidence. A wall provides more of an elaborate response.

But honestly sciver, I have you on ignore but just go over to BroadStreetHockey. You will love it over there. Matt Carle is the f'ing man to them, close to a top 5 defender on the level of Chara and Lidstrom.
BSH hasn't come close to stating what you're saying they are. You're badly exagerrating. What BSH has done, which is the same as I've done. Is offer an informed opinion backed up factual data. And you're free to dispute that and offer to the contrary with facts to back it up. And you haven't done so. Neither to me and the points I offer, or to the points BSH offers. Instead you offer the above. Which has zero relevance to the points being made. And you comically say I haven't offered a shred of evidence? I'd be perfectly willing to do it all over again and start from scratch and discuss any aspect of Carle's game. And I'll do so while offering facts to back up my statements. You're reply is certainly a dead give away to the reality.

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05-21-2012, 10:57 AM
  #323
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Just curious, and sorry if it's been covered, I haven't been through the entire thread...how do you view Carle, as a 1-7 D?

While I don't necessarily agree with BSH's stance, I agree with it more than I do the overwhelming public opinion that the guy is barely a bottom pairing guy. Some of that may be hyperbole however.
3-4 defender, who is good at moving the puck but is average defensively.

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05-21-2012, 11:01 AM
  #324
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3-4 defender, who is good at moving the puck but is average defensively.
Fair enough. Can't disagree there. I would go as far as saying he's a REALLY good 3-4 defender. We ask him to do a ton, however, which I think is the crux of the problem.

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05-21-2012, 11:05 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
3-4 defender, who is good at moving the puck but is average defensively.
I suspect most reasonable fans put him in the 3-5 range depending in large part on the other players on the team. On the New York Rangers, he's a 5. On the Penguins, he's closer to a 3.

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