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Old
05-18-2012, 03:05 AM
  #101
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He didn't flatline, the team did.

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05-18-2012, 07:48 AM
  #102
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Captain Bob: Was it not you who, 2.5 years back, was over and over stating Howard was basically crap despite playing lights out in LA and so on?! You kept going about "he is the backup and played the weak teams, Ozzie the good ones".

Now I have that in mind and re-read your last post comparing Ozzies stats to Legace. So.... Manny blanked the likes of Columbus, Edmonton and Isles more often and more consistently then Ozzie did against the contenders and top-teams? OK... I can take both sides of the argument sort of. But please try to stick to ONE argumentation and not change everything on a consistent basis so that it fits into your argumenation. That is bad style and lacks credibility!

You compare Osgoods stats to other goales further up. Amongst them the likes of Hasek and CuJo. And his stats are pretty simlar. Not a bad achievement, is it?!
If Howard is an elite guy? Well... Time will tell. I wouldn't have considered Quick elite too. Now he is on the verge of winning a cup on his own. Legace and Conklin were backups who rarely played THE top competition. Vernon... YOU were the one to state he is (borderlin) Hall-worthy. So... yeah, he has similar stats to 2 HOFers and a borderline guy plus a young goalie whom the jury is still out on. Plus two backups who played weaker competition. Sounds good to me, to be honest.

On top of that I personally think Ozzie is better then Vernon. He wasn't in 97. But that was a very young goalie still against a proven cup-winning goalie in the dawn of his prime, some of the best days for goalies usually. So... not a fair matchup. I would take the 2008 Ozzie over the 97-Vernon any day, though. And THAT would be fair. Cannot say too much about a young Vernon, though.

Overall... I do not see much of a negative to Ozzie in the stats you state. All I see is that the wings always had pretty solid to world-class goaltending over the last 15 years!

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05-18-2012, 07:56 AM
  #103
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Captain Bob: Was it not you who, 2.5 years back, was over and over stating Howard was basically crap despite playing lights out in LA and so on?! You kept going about "he is the backup and played the weak teams, Ozzie the good ones".
No, I think that was HIHD.

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05-18-2012, 10:27 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Zorin View Post
Captain Bob: Was it not you who, 2.5 years back, was over and over stating Howard was basically crap despite playing lights out in LA and so on?! You kept going about "he is the backup and played the weak teams, Ozzie the good ones".
Nope. That was HiHD,an Ozzie superfan.
After game 2 of Detroit Vancouver in 2002, HiHD was criticizing Detroit for taking Hasek over Ozzie, if I remember it right.

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Now I have that in mind and re-read your last post comparing Ozzies stats to Legace. So.... Manny blanked the likes of Columbus, Edmonton and Isles more often and more consistently then Ozzie did against the contenders and top-teams? OK... I can take both sides of the argument sort of. But please try to stick to ONE argumentation and not change everything on a consistent basis so that it fits into your argumenation. That is bad style and lacks credibility!
For one, I did not say that about Howard. For two, let's be a little more honest about Manny. While he came here to be a depth goalie, he nearly stole the job from Ozzie in 2001, when Osgood's numbers were terrible.
He started A LOT in for a backup, because of Ozzie's bad season and injuries/age of Hasek/Cujo.
In fact, the year he was the Wings' starter, he posted AWESOME numbers. He wasn't just playing Cbus and whoever.


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You compare Osgoods stats to other goales further up. Amongst them the likes of Hasek and CuJo. And his stats are pretty simlar. Not a bad achievement, is it?!
I don't believe ozzie's numbers look very good next to Hasek's Detroit numbers. Considering the age of Ozzie when he played a majority of his Detroit games, and the age of Hasek when he played his Detroit games ... I the difference in numbers is pretty telling.

Re: Cujo: He was 35 in his first season here and only full season here. He had ankle spurs or something. He played in 61 games and went 2.49/.912.
The next year, he was demoted to the AHL and then called up and demoted and called up in the Red Wings' shoddiest move in recent memory. Plus he was 36. In 31 games, he was 2.31/.909

So how does Ozzie compare as a 35/36 year old?
at 35 - Ozzie played 46 games, nearly lost his job to Ty Conklin went 3.09/887 - but he played very well in the playoffs and went to the cup finals.
At 36, Ozzie played 23 games and and was 3.02/.888



Quote:
If Howard is an elite guy? Well... Time will tell. I wouldn't have considered Quick elite too.
Now he is on the verge of winning a cup on his own. Legace and Conklin were backups who rarely played THE top competition.

Vernon... YOU were the one to state he is (borderlin) Hall-worthy.
Quote:
So... yeah, he has similar stats to 2 HOFers and a borderline guy plus a young goalie whom the jury is still out on. Plus two backups who played weaker competition. Sounds good to me, to be honest.
And yet, if Ozzie's Detroit stats, mostly, represent the PRIME of his career. For Hasek, Cujo and Vernon, it is the end.
Notice what happened to ozzie's regular season stats at the end?
They were cringe-worthy.

Quote:
On top of that I personally think Ozzie is better then Vernon. He wasn't in 97. But that was a very young goalie still against a proven cup-winning goalie in the dawn of his prime, some of the best days for goalies usually. So... not a fair matchup. I would take the 2008 Ozzie over the 97-Vernon any day, though. And THAT would be fair. Cannot say too much about a young Vernon, though.
Ozzie in 97 was 23. Fairly young. But young goalies have won in the NHL. Ward. Fleury. Dryden. Roy. Brodeur. Ozzie in 1998. Vernon was 25 when he won in Calgary and didn't win again until he was 33.
Interesting thing about Vernon was that he started the majority of games his first year here (didn't look very good). And then backed up Ozzie in the regular season the next two years, for the most part. He had a horrible sv. pct most of his career.
I remember not liking Vernon very much, until he won the cup for us.

Quote:
Overall... I do not see much of a negative to Ozzie in the stats you state. All I see is that the wings always had pretty solid to world-class goaltending over the last 15 years!
What I see is that the Wings have had a good goalie in Ozzie (except when he sucked). And that they've tried to bring in expensive star goalies beyond their prime.

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05-18-2012, 11:06 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I didn't say top 10. I said 11-20. Middle 10. Middle being in the the average range.
Have we expanded when I wasn't paying attention?
I think Howard is top ten. And if you think he is possibly from 11-15 I would still think that is above average. There aren't exactly 30 capable starters in the NHL.

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05-18-2012, 12:00 PM
  #106
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I think Howard is top ten. And if you think he is possibly from 11-15 I would still think that is above average. There aren't exactly 30 capable starters in the NHL.
Personally, I have a hard time ranking goalies in today's era, when crap goalies are stars a year later, and superstar goalies aren't worth their contracts within six months.

I can tell you Howard isn't elite, in my opinion. I don't think he's a "great" goalie, by NHL standards.
A couple years ago, there were too many Red Wings fans willing to write Howard off.
Now too many fans are too eager to anoint him as a great goalie.

I'm on the fence. Because that's where Howard put me.

I don't think the paint is dry on Jimmy Howard. Maybe he can be a great goalie. He's certainly shown the ability to play great hockey.
But Howard has also been just good enough to lose in the playoffs recently. 2nd round. 2nd round. 1st round.

His season-by-season stats have not been consistent. Nice numbers in 9-10 and 11-12. Pretty weak numbers in 10-11.

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05-18-2012, 12:55 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
How old are you?
I don't know a single hockey fan alive in the world in that era who believes Osgood was an "exceptional player for a long period of time"

Rather than get into a pointless back and forth I will tell you I have been a fan since the 80's and watched Osgood's whole career. I just called it that, so I guess there is one hockey fan that thinks so. There is something to be said for consistency, I am not making the Osgood was statistically dominate for a time period argument. I would make that case if I was for getting Pavel Bure or Eric Lindross into the hall, but his years of success are a part of this argument, including two successful stops outside of Detroit.

We are very much having an argument about basically me saying the guy hit .330 and you keep saying but they were singles with protection. Well guess what statistically to do that for almost 20 years is exceptional.

You keep saying but everyone would have done that, I disagree and in a big way. A lot of people have trotted this out, but he wrestled the job back away from Vernon and Hasek, no small task either. It is a very hard thing to be as consistently productive and resilient as Chris Osgood was and not many goalies could have done what he did if really any.

To quote Ken Holland:

Quote:
Hes been an incredible competitor with tremendous mental toughness, If it was so easy everybody would be doing it.
http://ingoalmag.com/news/chris-osgo...-hall-of-fame/

In case nobody had actually done it we have eluded to his numbers improving but his playoff stat-line here it is fourth all-time in shutouts better GAA than most everyone else on the list. Better Winning percentage than Vernon and Belfour.

http://statshockey.homestead.com/lis...eplaywins.html

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05-18-2012, 02:01 PM
  #108
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To quote Ken Holland:
Not always the most popular person around here, but I agree with you about everything else you said.

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05-18-2012, 02:13 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Personally, I have a hard time ranking goalies in today's era, when crap goalies are stars a year later, and superstar goalies aren't worth their contracts within six months.

I can tell you Howard isn't elite, in my opinion. I don't think he's a "great" goalie, by NHL standards.
A couple years ago, there were too many Red Wings fans willing to write Howard off.
Now too many fans are too eager to anoint him as a great goalie.

I'm on the fence. Because that's where Howard put me.

I don't think the paint is dry on Jimmy Howard. Maybe he can be a great goalie. He's certainly shown the ability to play great hockey.
But Howard has also been just good enough to lose in the playoffs recently. 2nd round. 2nd round. 1st round.

His season-by-season stats have not been consistent. Nice numbers in 9-10 and 11-12. Pretty weak numbers in 10-11.
That looks like a sophomore slump to me. Many athletes in a lot of sports go through it. I think this season is the telling season, especially coming off of the IIHF (he let in a bad one, 1st goal vs Finland but then settled in)

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05-18-2012, 02:21 PM
  #110
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Internet Wings fans are the last people who should be trying to judge goaltenders.

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05-18-2012, 02:23 PM
  #111
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Why are we even on the fence with Howard anyway? He was thrown into a mess of a team. Seriously, you expect him to win a cup when the team in front of him doesn't know what the eff then want to be; AKA lack of idendity.

Also, 2008 was their last days of the mighty defensive team. Why did Osgood dip off? Why did we have to rely on Conklin in 2009 through the regular season? It's only been getting worse through out the years.

No goalie is gonna win this team a cup, it's like judging Hasek in his first three years as a pro for not taking the CBJ's to the promise land; it's retarded.

The Wings have 2 things going for them. Offense, and Goaltending. Defense is the thing of the past, and right now the defense is so bad, it's our achilles heel, not just something "we can deal with." Nashville exploited the **** out of it.

To me, Howard is top 10; and he has yet to peak. The Wings team wasn't capable of of a cup run in 2010, 2011 or this year. You don't judge Howie on that, you judge him on how well he handled it. 2010, 2011 he played well. This year...well the injuries and the defense didn't help him at all. He played alright, but it is what it is. They weren't going very far if he stood on his head or not...THEY COULDN'T SCORE!

Does he need to work on his game? Of course. Most pros are working on their game year in and year out until they retire. Howie will be no different.

I said WAY back, Howie's third year will be important. Why? Most goalies have a good first year. Players don't have the book on them. They are the new sensation! Look out Roy, someone may bump you off your throne... you know the drill.

The second year, the players find the book on this goalie; in this case Howard. He had you inevitable slump. The defense is sucking anyway, so they didn't help. I'll say I was suprised he bounced back, which showed character.

Most goalies don't bounce back from that slump, the average ones at least. They stay playing in that slumpish zone. Did Howard? No. The Red Wings defense, though, managed to get worse while Howard managed to get better; until he got injured 3 times.

That shows you that Howard is the real deal. He'll have the same type of year he had rookie season and this season, but most likely get better positionally and work on those other nagging things. He'll also get stronger mentally each season.

He's got the skill, and the traits to takes us there, he just needs experience. Give him time. In the mean time, the team in front of him needs to figure out what the hell they want to be: Skill, tough, grit...what? And play some damn defense!

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05-18-2012, 02:27 PM
  #112
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Howard's not "a winner" but scrubs like Anti Niemi and Marc Andre Fleury are?

Yeah, OK. Know why we can't figure it out? Because we keep looking for the super complex fairy tale and don't want to admit the boring truth-that most goaltenders are as good as their team allows them to be. Put Jimmy Howard on other Cup winning teams and I doubt he loses it for them.

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05-18-2012, 02:31 PM
  #113
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I for once agree with Captain Bob about Ozzie's first go around in a Red Wing uniform. He didn't learn the mental toughness until later in his career. Perhaps it was the demotions early on that helped him learn that.

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05-18-2012, 02:33 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Howard's not "a winner" but scrubs like Anti Niemi and Marc Andre Fleury are?

Yeah, OK. Know why we can't figure it out? Because we keep looking for the super complex fairy tale and don't want to admit the boring truth-that most goaltenders are as good as their team allows them to be. Put Jimmy Howard on other Cup winning teams and I doubt he loses it for them.
Exactly. MAF infront of a Pens team that forgot how to play defense? Ouch.

Also, Niemi, He hasn't been do much better. A stacked Chicago team took him there. Otherwise, he couldn't do it with a Sharks team that should have won in in 2010 and or 2011. /shrug

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05-18-2012, 03:19 PM
  #115
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I don't care about your early childhood memories.
Well it's a good thing thing this isn't Captain Bob's Boards, though you seem to think it is. My only comment directed at you was how bad of an argument it is to point out that other goalies didn't have the staying power in Detroit that Osgood had.

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Ozzie didn't pull us through 1998.
This is factually incorrect obviously. You may not like the way he did it, but he was the starting goalie and he won the Stanley Cup. And he did it under an immense amount of pressure and scrutiny, which was my point.

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He came back inflappable. Good for him.
Which was directly related to his prior experience.


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Detroit Stats:
I don't care about stats.

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05-18-2012, 04:49 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Personally, I have a hard time ranking goalies in today's era, when crap goalies are stars a year later, and superstar goalies aren't worth their contracts within six months.

I can tell you Howard isn't elite, in my opinion. I don't think he's a "great" goalie, by NHL standards.
A couple years ago, there were too many Red Wings fans willing to write Howard off.
Now too many fans are too eager to anoint him as a great goalie.

I'm on the fence. Because that's where Howard put me.

I don't think the paint is dry on Jimmy Howard. Maybe he can be a great goalie. He's certainly shown the ability to play great hockey.
But Howard has also been just good enough to lose in the playoffs recently. 2nd round. 2nd round. 1st round.

His season-by-season stats have not been consistent. Nice numbers in 9-10 and 11-12. Pretty weak numbers in 10-11.
The problem is that puts way too much criticism on Howard and not enough on the team. 2010 he helped put Detroit in a 3-0 hole against San Jose. In 2011 he played much better. This last playoff he was the goaltender for a Detroit team that placed too many perimeter shots on a "superior" goaltender (one who wasn't all that great the next round) and allowed too many odd man breaks against. Sure he had some brain farts, but I would place 1 of the 3 past series losses on him. And honestly that one series probably wouldn't have been won if he didn't play mediocre.

It would be easier if Howard had a consistent backup to allow him to do his job consistently.

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05-18-2012, 09:41 PM
  #117
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Over here we have the Ozzie argument and way over on the other side we have the Howard debate.

Let's merge the two and think about how contradictory it sounds. Osgood won in the playoffs, yet that doesn't make him great. Howard isn't great because he can't win in the playoffs.

Maybe we as internet Wings fans need to just admit that we hate everything that isn't perfect. We must sound like such spoiled brats to outsiders who read this.

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05-18-2012, 09:50 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Maybe we as internet Wings fans need to just admit that we hate everything that isn't perfect. We must sound like such spoiled brats to outsiders who read this.
We sound like spoiled brats to me, and I'm as big a Red Wings fan as they come.

And you're right about the contradiction between Howard and Osgood. It makes no sense whatsoever.

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05-18-2012, 10:05 PM
  #119
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The problem is that puts way too much criticism on Howard and not enough on the team. 2010 he helped put Detroit in a 3-0 hole against San Jose. In 2011 he played much better. This last playoff he was the goaltender for a Detroit team that placed too many perimeter shots on a "superior" goaltender (one who wasn't all that great the next round) and allowed too many odd man breaks against. Sure he had some brain farts, but I would place 1 of the 3 past series losses on him. And honestly that one series probably wouldn't have been won if he didn't play mediocre.

It would be easier if Howard had a consistent backup to allow him to do his job consistently.
I agree. But I'm not willing to say Howard is a top notch goalie. He just hasnt shown it. I'm not saying he's crap. I'm not a hater.
I just don't think he's shown he's a top goalie in this league.
We see what happens to goalie stats when they play for a team playing well and what happens when they play for a team that sucks.
Brian Elliot, Mike Smith etc

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05-19-2012, 01:30 PM
  #120
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Ozzie's no Roberto Luongo.

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05-19-2012, 02:07 PM
  #121
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Ozzie's no Roberto Luongo.
You've got that right. Ozzie can win Cups.

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