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05-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Tony Hand's views are not xenophobic, his views are purely for hockey reasons. It is not good for the development of actual British players to have a team full of Canadians.

The international team is not going to get better if you just paper over the cracks with Canadian dual nationals, like I said we've gone down that route before and didn't get anywhere.

The only way we are going to get better is if we develop our own homegrown players. What is the point in helping these talented players along their development if you are just going to pick dual nationals over them? It gives the players themselves no motivation to strive to make the national team if a Canadian will just get picked over them.

Have a few guys like Liam Stewart and the Perlini brothers to boost the squad strength to get more success sure, but having a team full of them is just papering over the cracks and ignoring the internal domestic development problems. It's like going to Africa and saying "here you go, have some food" you are treating the symptoms but not preventing the cause.
Still not in the same category at all.

I agree that a kid who grew up in a small town in Quebec, played as a youth in Quebec, got drafted into the Q, plays 4 QMJHL season, goes to the CIS for 2 years, then accepts a contract with Nottingham, ends up getting his UK citizenship and then represents GB Hockey is not going to help the hockey development. If you have a ton of guys like that, why would the team get funded? The government would be funding a team full of foreigners...

Nobody considers Ashley Tait a dual nation, why should the Perlini's be any different?

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05-19-2012, 06:01 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
I wouldn't know about that seeing as I'm not overly involved with the ins and outs of the IHUK joke up, whoops I mean set up.

The GM doesn't have the same ring to it as it does in NA. Take the Bracknell Bees for example, we have two people as our general managers, but it is Gareth Cox and Lukas Smital, our head and assistant coaches who pick and sign the team, the GM's role for our team is to do the whole finances etc, they tell Gareth and Lukas how much they have to play with and Gareth and Lukas will build a team accordingly. Most Elite and EPL teams work based on that relationship between management and the head coach/coaches.

I have no real idea about what the GM/GMs for the GB team do, but I suspect picking the team may not be one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Yeah you are right the GM's don't pick the team, it's not like North America or Football. In Tony Hand's book he spoke a lot about the player recruitment he had to do as a coach.
This isn't the Elite League or the EPL either... This is International Hockey where they don't really need to take care of day-to-day finances like a club team. GM's pick teams, a coach can have some obvious input but in this case could also be used as a recruiting tool. For Example "Come play for us and you can be coached by GB Hockey royalty."

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05-19-2012, 06:01 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Still not in the same category at all.

I agree that a kid who grew up in a small town in Quebec, played as a youth in Quebec, got drafted into the Q, plays 4 QMJHL season, goes to the CIS for 2 years, then accepts a contract with Nottingham, ends up getting his UK citizenship and then represents GB Hockey is not going to help the hockey development. If you have a ton of guys like that, why would the team get funded? The government would be funding a team full of foreigners...

Nobody considers Ashley Tait a dual nation, why should the Perlini's be any different?
I used them as examples because I agree with having them in the team.

And for the GB teams I'm 90% sure the coach picks the team, I don't know the logic behind it, that's just the way it is.

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05-19-2012, 06:07 PM
  #329
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http://www.icehockeyuk.co.uk/2013-wo...ments--p177553
Quote:
The groups, dates and venues for the various 2013 World Championship tournaments have been announced following the IIHF Annual Congress in Helsinki.
Great Britain Senior Men will travel to Budapest in World Championship (Division 1A) from 14 to 20th April 2013, and will be in a six-team group with hosts Hungary, relegated nations Italy and Kazakhstan, promoted Korea and last year's opponents Japan.

In addition, it has been confirmed the GB Men will take part in the Olympic pre-qualification event running from 8th to 11th November 2012 at a venue and country yet to be confirmed. Tony Hand's side have been placed in Group J, alongside Japan, Romania and Korea, with the winners progressing to the final qualifying tournament in February 2013.

GB Under-20s take their place in Division 1B and will face hosts Ukraine, along with Kazakhstan, Italy, Poland and Croatia between 10th and 16th December 2012.

GB U18s are off to Tallinn from 31st March to 6th April 2013 in Division 2A, where they were come up against hosts Estonia and also Hungary, Romania, Lithuania and Croatia.

Great Britain Senior Women will face Kazakhstan, China, France (hosts), Netherlands and Korea in Division 1B from 8th to 14th April 2013.

GB Women will also take part in an Olympic pre-qualifcation event (Group E) in Shanghai. This will take place from 8th to 11th November 2012 and GB will face China, France and a qualifier. The winners will progress to the final Olympic qualifying tournament in February 2013.

Meanwhile, Hull Arena will be the venue for the World Championship Under-18s Women's qualifying event from 29th October to 3rd November 2012. GB will go head-to-head with Slovakia, China, Italy, France and Kazakhstan for a place in the Division 1 tournament in Switzerland in January 2013.
Looks like GB has a year of competing ahead. They aren't stuck in any groups where they are completely over matched.

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05-19-2012, 06:09 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Tony Hand's views are not xenophobic, his views are purely for hockey reasons. It is not good for the development of actual British players to have a team full of Canadians.

The international team is not going to get better if you just paper over the cracks with Canadian dual nationals, like I said we've gone down that route before and didn't get anywhere.

The only way we are going to get better is if we develop our own homegrown players. What is the point in helping these talented players along their development if you are just going to pick dual nationals over them? It gives the players themselves no motivation to strive to make the national team if a Canadian will just get picked over them.

Have a few guys like Liam Stewart and the Perlini brothers to boost the squad strength to get more success sure, but having a team full of them is just papering over the cracks and ignoring the internal domestic development problems. It's like going to Africa and saying "here you go, have some food" you are treating the symptoms but not preventing the cause.
Oh come off it. Are you seriously suggesting that for the, what, 4/5 games a year that the senior GB team plays we should factor development into it?!? Not the years and years and years of junior levels before that?

Your argument is now turning into a lets develop the Brits argument, great argument, one I support. But GB senior international level is not the place for it, its become too late. Under 18, under 20, thats the level where its important, where players are still developing. Development should happen far, far, far back down that line, to juniors, to signing up kids to the EPL, the Elite, etc etc etc.

You seem to think that I'm arguing for a Canadian dual nat to take a place over a brit just because we can. If that Brit is truly better then the dual nat then he'll get picked. Hockey ability over nationality is the way a GB senior team should be picked.

Did you actually listen to what I said, I didn't say 'hay guys lets take the easy road, ship some Yanks and Canucks over, marry them up to some Brits and whack em in that GB side'. I said if they are good enough, willing and wanting to play, why send them away. And neither am I saying lets take a plane full of dual nats to the WCs either.

Yes the only way a GB team will get great is through developing good Brits, but that's not this argument.

Oh and I dont buy that whole the players wont care, pffff, if they have any drive and ambition they'll know that if they are good enough they'll get picked.

Does watching Kevin Pietersen stop kids playing cricket and stop them wanting to play for England? Does watching Lukas Podolski stop German kids playing football and wanting to play for Germany? No of course it bloody doesn't.

IF I'm an aspiring offensive D man and I see Corey Neilson get a call up to the GB squad will I go 'oh I'll never get a spot now better quit and cut my losses'. If so then I'm not really a player that GB should want am I?

You seem to have bypassed my argument for having a successful international side being good for the sport in general.

Christ I cant even count that high on the amount of people I saw doing the Johnny Wilkinson rugby kick the Monday after the world cup win in 2003. Of course its no where near the scale of hockey, but just think how much good a top WC finish and Olympic qualification will go for the sport. When the BBC start their 2014 coverage, wont it be great for the sport to see GB on the tv playing? A few more kids will watch and think, might give that a try, might watch my local team. UK sport governing bodies see and maybe invest a bit more money in it. That affects your junior programs, and development.

I'm not saying a successful international side is the be all and end all, its a part of trying to turn things around.

So once, third time lucky, again.

IMO, a successful GB team, with good junior and senior league development, along with other things, is the way to go. Lets pick our team based on ability, not where they spent arbitrary moments of their life. Becuase if that does bother you then lets ask Kevin to send back his ashes winners medals, because an argument that only born and bred Brits playing for GB amounts to the same thing.

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05-19-2012, 06:21 PM
  #331
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Robert Dowd: Played with GB at the World Champ since he was 20 and this year he broke out. Looks like he'll be one of the anchors on GB's men's team for a while. Had they brought a dual nat* over the 20 year old and let him learn the ways of Men's International hockey slowly, maybe he wouldn't be able to step up the way he did last season at 23.

Even Canada brings kids to the Olympics and World Champs to give them early international experience and help them develop. 2010 Olympics they took kids like Drew Doughty & M-A Fleury. Look at any World Championship for Canada in the past 10 years. They always have real young kids going because they get a chance to develop their international experience and learn the ropes.


*When I say dual nat, 99.99% of the time I mean a guy who was born and raised in Canada, played Canada juniors, then decided to come over and play pro in England and got citizenship.

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05-19-2012, 06:26 PM
  #332
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It is never too late for development, Stephen Lee made the GB senior team while still a U20, he would not have been able to do that if there were more dual nationals. The Canadians even do it at the WC's, they tend to pick the young guys to go so they can get some experience ready for the possibility of playing in the Olympics in a few years. Edit: Adam beat me to it, pretty much said the exact same thing

The point is dual nationals will not win us a world championship or get us to the Olympics. For the third time, we already tried that and failed. And I too have the same definition of dual nationals as Adam, I'm not opposed to Liam Stewart or the Perlini brothers being in the team at all.

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05-19-2012, 06:34 PM
  #333
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So it was the 15 or so international games over the past 3 years that developed him? Not the 200 odd Elite league games?

I'm sure Down got picked....because he was good?

I mean if the case was that an ex NHL guy came over and became a dual nat, got picked for some reason over Dowd, helped the team get promoted and Olympic qualification, sure it sucks that Dowd didn't get his GB chance as quickly as he would have otherwise, but ends justify the means surely if the sport gets a bigger interest because of its success?

I don't think we can use the Canadian example you give like for like, hockey there is the top spot, nothing comes close. Canada does badly, just look at this years WC, then there's no real bad repercussions accept from some wounded Canadian egos

Just like if they won, theres not that much positives, the sports already number one, how can you improve on that.

GB and hockey over here is very different, having a GB side seen on the BBC coverage of the 2014 Olympics will be a huge huge coup for the sport over here.

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05-19-2012, 06:41 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
For the third time, we already tried that and failed.
And for an nth time I'm not advocating for a whole team of dual nats, my original point was that Hand not picking a few, and by that I mean perhaps 3/4/5 dual nat players, because they are dual nats is wrong because IMO its not hockey reasons.

France has 7 dual nat players in their WC squad, they finished above teams with no dual nats, didn't do so badly for them did it.

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05-19-2012, 06:49 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
So it was the 15 or so international games over the past 3 years that developed him? Not the 200 odd Elite league games?
You don't think that playing 15 international hockey games with GB, getting the experience of playing against top players from other countries had anything to do with Robert Dowds growth as a player? You can develop plenty in the EIHL but it isn't the same as matching up against the top players from other countries!


Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
I'm sure Dowd got picked....because he was good?
Yes, he was picked because he was good. He was also picked because he was identified as a player that will contribute to GB hockey for years and years. It's probably better for GB Hockey long term to take on a 20 year old and get him some international experience rather then get a 32 year old Canadian who will play 4 years of international hockey for GB hockey and maybe help them go from 4th place to 3rd...


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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
I mean if the case was that an ex NHL guy came over and became a dual nat, got picked for some reason over Dowd, helped the team get promoted and Olympic qualification, sure it sucks that Dowd didn't get his GB chance as quickly as he would have otherwise, but ends justify the means surely if the sport gets a bigger interest because of its success?
Any Ex-NHL guy who comes over to GB for 4 years is going to so washed up that, he alone, will not change the teams out come as much as you think he would in your example.


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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
I don't think we can use the Canadian example you give like for like, hockey there is the top spot, nothing comes close. Canada does badly, just look at this years WC, then there's no real bad repercussions accept from some wounded Canadian egos

Just like if they won, theres not that much positives, the sports already number one, how can you improve on that.
World Championships isn't a tournament that Hockey Canada, when it's all said and done, cares about winning. Sounds ridiculous I know, and they'll tell you every year that they want to win, but the real interest is to get some guys international experience. A lot of top NHL guys turn down the opportunity and if Canada truly cared about this tournament, they would be suspending these guys from the Olympic squads. I know, a lot of people outside of Canada will say "Oh you're just saying that because Canada lost." I could honestly give a **** if Canada finished dead last and got relegated to be completely honest. It's not a tournament Hockey Canada takes seriously and they use it as a tool to prep guys for a real tournament like the Olympics.

The tournament is ideal for Euro leagues because they aren't in their playoffs during the tournament and it isn't immediately after their seasons. If they pushed this tournament back 1 or 2 months, Canada would probably dominate it would be boring. Canada would send all their top talent, run over teams like Norway and who would benefit from it? Absolutely nobody...


Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
GB and hockey over here is very different, having a GB side seen on the BBC coverage of the 2014 Olympics will be a huge huge coup for the sport over here.
2014 is too early for GB yet. They've been much better at developing players with guys like Stephen Lee, Robert Dowd, Craig Peacock, David Phillips, etc. But the development is few and far between. Each year the U20 and U18 squads consist of only 1 or 2 guys who are solid players. They need to be spitting out way more players on a regular basis if they want to have top end talent to make the Olympics but it seems like they have been moving in the right direction. I hope Joseph Lewis and Robert Dowd can make it in Germany and Sweden respectively. Show GB that they have been developing some quality hockey players.

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05-19-2012, 06:56 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
And for an nth time I'm not advocating for a whole team of dual nats, my original point was that Hand not picking a few, and by that I mean perhaps 3/4/5 dual nat players, because they are dual nats is wrong because IMO its not hockey reasons.

France has 7 dual nat players in their WC squad, they finished above teams with no dual nats, didn't do so badly for them did it.
Here's a solid example for you. Japan. 1998 Nagano Olympics, they tossed a lot of "Dual Nats" on to their top team for the Olympics. They... sucked. What did it to for the country you ask? They jumped from 24th place (1997) to 14th place (1998). Years to follow:
1999:14th
2000:16th
2001:16th
2002:16th
2003:16th
2004:15th
2005:25th
2006:25th

You can put duct tape on a leak in your boat but long term, it's still going to sink.

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05-19-2012, 07:01 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
You don't think that playing 15 international hockey games with GB, getting the experience of playing against top players from other countries had anything to do with Robert Dowds growth as a player? You can develop plenty in the EIHL but it isn't the same as matching up against the top players from other countries!



Yes, he was picked because he was good. He was also picked because he was identified as a player that will contribute to GB hockey for years and years. It's probably better for GB Hockey long term to take on a 20 year old and get him some international experience rather then get a 32 year old Canadian who will play 4 years of international hockey for GB hockey and maybe help them go from 4th place to 3rd...



Any Ex-NHL guy who comes over to GB for 4 years is going to so washed up that, he alone, will not change the teams out come as much as you think he would in your example.



World Championships isn't a tournament that Hockey Canada, when it's all said and done, cares about winning. Sounds ridiculous I know, and they'll tell you every year that they want to win, but the real interest is to get some guys international experience. A lot of top NHL guys turn down the opportunity and if Canada truly cared about this tournament, they would be suspending these guys from the Olympic squads. I know, a lot of people outside of Canada will say "Oh you're just saying that because Canada lost." I could honestly give a **** if Canada finished dead last and got relegated to be completely honest. It's not a tournament Hockey Canada takes seriously and they use it as a tool to prep guys for a real tournament like the Olympics.

The tournament is ideal for Euro leagues because they aren't in their playoffs during the tournament and it isn't immediately after their seasons. If they pushed this tournament back 1 or 2 months, Canada would probably dominate it would be boring. Canada would send all their top talent, run over teams like Norway and who would benefit from it? Absolutely nobody...




2014 is too early for GB yet. They've been much better at developing players with guys like Stephen Lee, Robert Dowd, Craig Peacock, David Phillips, etc. But the development is few and far between. Each year the U20 and U18 squads consist of only 1 or 2 guys who are solid players. They need to be spitting out way more players on a regular basis if they want to have top end talent to make the Olympics but it seems like they have been moving in the right direction. I hope Joseph Lewis and Robert Dowd can make it in Germany and Sweden respectively. Show GB that they have been developing some quality hockey players.
I'm sure those 15 games were useful, but IMO 200 elite games is more useful.

The NHL was just a hypothetical, I may be an EPL follower but I know the limitations of this country and the player it attracts.

Canada not caring about the WC backs my point up further. It shows that our situations are vastly different. We'd be ecstatic to reach the WC top league, Canada just goes meh, its apples and oranges time IMO.

Again I'm not idealistic enough to think 2014 is a gettable goal, if I'm honest I dont even think we'll beat Japan to get through to the next round of qualifications. Its just an example of how things could be, an eventual goal.

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05-19-2012, 07:08 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Here's a solid example for you. Japan. 1998 Nagano Olympics, they tossed a lot of "Dual Nats" on to their top team for the Olympics. They... sucked. What did it to for the country you ask? They jumped from 24th place (1997) to 14th place (1998). Years to follow:
1999:14th
2000:16th
2001:16th
2002:16th
2003:16th
2004:15th
2005:25th
2006:25th

You can put duct tape on a leak in your boat but long term, it's still going to sink.
How many is chucked at? The whole team? 7 like in the France example?

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05-19-2012, 07:10 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
How many is chucked at? The whole team? 7 like in the France example?
I count 9 on eliteprospects.com

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05-19-2012, 07:14 PM
  #340
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I hate to say it but for once I'm allowing Adam to compare to Canada as I made the same argument myself it's the same situation, they wouldn't send younger guys to the WC's if it wouldn't be of great benefit to those players.

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05-19-2012, 07:15 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
How many is chucked at? The whole team? 7 like in the France example?
Can I just note that of the 7 dual nats on France's team, only 2 of them aren't actually from France... Having citizenship from other countries when your from France isn't the same as being from another country and getting citizenship...

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05-19-2012, 07:16 PM
  #342
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I'm going to leave it as its going into territory that I didnt intend.

Back to the original, I dont think it matters where you come from, if you want to and are able to and are good enough to play for a country then you should be able to have that opportunity.

You guys disagree and were going round in circles more or less.

I'm going to bed

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05-19-2012, 07:17 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
I hate to say it but for once I'm allowing Adam to compare to Canada as I made the same argument myself it's the same situation, they wouldn't send younger guys to the WC's if it wouldn't be of great benefit to those players.
It's basic player development. Canada does it sometimes at the U20's as well where they bring underagers to play as the 13th forward just to give them the experience for next year. As much as you want to win tournaments right away, you always have to be thinking long term. That's the lovely bit about international hockey and it's a similar philosophy required in the CHL. You need to focus on winning while constantly rebuilding due to age restrictions. I love that type of win/develop situation which is why I like the CHL & GB Hockey so much

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05-19-2012, 07:46 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Can I just note that of the 7 dual nats on France's team, only 2 of them aren't actually from France... Having citizenship from other countries when your from France isn't the same as being from another country and getting citizenship...
Took a minute to break it down:
Cristobal Huet- Born and raised in France. Has dual citizenship from his time playing pro in Switzerland.

Stephane Da Costa- Current NHLer. Born and raised in France, only ever played in France. Dual citizen because he has a Polish mother...

Teddy Da Costa- Stephanes brother, same deal but he plays pro hockey in Poland.

Brian Henderson- Son of Dave Henderson. He played some pro hockey in France and was a dual nat playing for France. Brian was born and raised in France, trained there his entire life other than 1 year in Canada when he was 20. He's a full on French trained player.

Antoine Roussel- Born and raised in France. Played up until he was 17 in France and then he went to Quebec so he could play in the CHL. Chicoutimi picked him up and he split time between Midget AAA and Major Junior. He's now playing in the AHL and that looks like another pure French player.

5 of 7 "dual nats" are actually trained in/from France but have second citizenships due to their parents. In reality they have the same make up as England in the dual nats section.

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05-20-2012, 05:18 PM
  #345
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Former NJ Devil and StL Blue Mike Danton has signed in Britain for the Coventry Blaze.

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05-20-2012, 05:26 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Tatanik View Post
Former NJ Devil and StL Blue Mike Danton has signed in Britain for the Coventry Blaze.
Mentioned that a page or two ago. I still wonder what kind of player he'll be in the EIHL, goon or skill.

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05-20-2012, 05:37 PM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Mentioned that a page or two ago. I still wonder what kind of player he'll be in the EIHL, goon or skill.
Well it's only been made official 20 minutes ago.

EDIT: And in the press release from Coventry, it is pretty clear that he has been signed to play as a power forward.

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05-20-2012, 05:37 PM
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Mentioned that a page or two ago. I still wonder what kind of player he'll be in the EIHL, goon or skill.
THF posters are already in uproar about him

And I quote:

Quote:
How does a convicted attempted murderer get a work visa for this country? What a joke
Quote:
can't figure out why anyone would sign this guy , when theres better talent out there and later on in the summer... better value for it too.

No top end team would entertain Danton now so to me shows how desperate teams in the EIHL must be
they really are unbelievable, the EBEL is a better league and that team still signed him so that 2nd guy is a complete idiot

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05-20-2012, 07:48 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Tatanik View Post
Well it's only been made official 20 minutes ago.

EDIT: And in the press release from Coventry, it is pretty clear that he has been signed to play as a power forward.
5'9" power forward Oxymoron much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
THF posters are already in uproar about him

And I quote:

they really are unbelievable, the EBEL is a better league and that team still signed him so that 2nd guy is a complete idiot
Some of those guys are simply clowns. They probably know nothing about the Mike Danton story other than he was convicted for hiring an undercover cop to kill a guy. They don't know that Danton grew up in a broken household. They don't know that Danton was basically taken from his family by an agent to play hockey and was told what to do and how to act since he was 14. He was a scared kid playing pro hockey who never had to think for himself and quite literally lost his mind. He went from a "I play hockey. I skate. I hit people." to a pretty well spoken rehabilitated man. Some people will always spew ignorant hate but I doubt Danton gives a rats ass. I met him a couple times while he was playing University hockey after his release, seems like a regular guy who was in a ****ed up situation.

I bet those same fans chirped Theo Fleury when he was playing for Belfast due to his history with alcohol abuse and had no idea of his entire history (See Graham James).

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05-20-2012, 08:05 PM
  #350
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The fact the first guy didn't even get right the crime Danton was convicted for just says it all really.

Conspiracy to commit murder is very different to attempted murder, first of all it can't be an attempted crime if someone else is going to do it for you

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