HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

JvR?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-19-2012, 06:12 PM
  #26
usualsuspect434
Registered User
 
usualsuspect434's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 91
vCash: 500
I think trading him at this point would be a big mistake. Why trade the guy away when his value is at its low point?

Even if you do have intentions of eventually dealing him, I'd say you wait until he stays healthy for a good stretch (knock on wood that this actually happens!!), and shows more flashes of the potential that made him a 2nd overall pick.....and then pull the trigger.

I just get a really bad feeling that if we trade him now, we'll seriously regret it in a couple years - especially if we're only getting $.50 on the dollar right now.

usualsuspect434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 06:29 PM
  #27
questhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by usualsuspect434 View Post
I think trading him at this point would be a big mistake. Why trade the guy away when his value is at its low point?

Even if you do have intentions of eventually dealing him, I'd say you wait until he stays healthy for a good stretch (knock on wood that this actually happens!!), and shows more flashes of the potential that made him a 2nd overall pick.....and then pull the trigger.

I just get a really bad feeling that if we trade him now, we'll seriously regret it in a couple years - especially if we're only getting $.50 on the dollar right now.
I agree for most teams, but to CBJ, MTL, T.O, Philly (yes you) he maybe worth 1.50 to the dollar. Burke and Leafs love...love JVR. I am a NJ fan 1st, but live near T.O so religion in my area to follow Leafs second.
IMO I'd trade him for (Murray pick) to secure a top D-man who will grow with your multitude of good/great young talent you have up front.

questhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 09:44 PM
  #28
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,721
vCash: 50
Why would they trade him now when his value is literally at an all time low? If he comes back next season and has a bad year, I would consider it, but right now there's just too much potential to take a chance that he'll never reach it.

flyershockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 09:51 PM
  #29
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Why would they trade him now when his value is literally at an all time low? If he comes back next season and has a bad year, I would consider it, but right now there's just too much potential to take a chance that he'll never reach it.
There will still be teams out there that will trade for his potential, just like the Flyers signed him for his potential. Like others have sad, there are teams that are willing to trade a decent amount for him, and we improve our defense, it will benefit us in the end. His potential is overblown by a lot on here, based off of like 8 games in his whole career.

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 10:26 PM
  #30
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,962
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by questhockey View Post
I agree for most teams, but to CBJ, MTL, T.O, Philly (yes you) he maybe worth 1.50 to the dollar. Burke and Leafs love...love JVR. I am a NJ fan 1st, but live near T.O so religion in my area to follow Leafs second.
IMO I'd trade him for (Murray pick) to secure a top D-man who will grow with your multitude of good/great young talent you have up front.
Who says the Leafs love him? Is it because Burke keeps hiring Americans?

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 11:15 PM
  #31
jfb392
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Who says the Leafs love him? Is it because Burke keeps hiring Americans?
Rumored trade interest back in January.
I believe TSN reported it and then negotiations stopped after he was concussed.

As far as my thoughts on him, I'd like him to be trade bait.
He doesn't have any consistency and I think a big part of that is his lack of sense.

jfb392 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 11:27 PM
  #32
Ryker
Registered User
 
Ryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 2,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Why would they trade him now when his value is literally at an all time low? If he comes back next season and has a bad year, I would consider it, but right now there's just too much potential to take a chance that he'll never reach it.
Well, that's the thing though, isn't it? It's a catch-22. If he does get better, why would we trade him, and if he doesn't, why would anyone give up a lot to get him? A decision has to be made either for or against the trade, and in this era, where a lot more information is available to the GMs than was the case in the past, we're not going to fool anyone. The only difference is going to be in how different GMs perceive what he's worth, but even if waiting a year tells us more on what kind of a player he's going to be, it also tells everyone else.

Ryker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2012, 11:35 PM
  #33
JohnnyOnTheSpot
I Believe in G-Sus
 
JohnnyOnTheSpot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,900
vCash: 500
So far I'm disappointed. He's just...not breaking out. I know injuries played a huge part, but I've been patiently waiting for him to just hit the next level and I'm losing my patience. Getting worried there is no consistent next level.

JohnnyOnTheSpot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2012, 04:30 AM
  #34
KaraLupin
카라
 
KaraLupin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
I was ready to pass judgment this season, but injuries have clouded that evaluation. Give me a full season. Still very high on him as a potential star power forward.

KaraLupin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2012, 12:11 PM
  #35
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,721
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Well, that's the thing though, isn't it? It's a catch-22. If he does get better, why would we trade him, and if he doesn't, why would anyone give up a lot to get him? A decision has to be made either for or against the trade, and in this era, where a lot more information is available to the GMs than was the case in the past, we're not going to fool anyone. The only difference is going to be in how different GMs perceive what he's worth, but even if waiting a year tells us more on what kind of a player he's going to be, it also tells everyone else.
True. But, teams aren't usually willing to trade a high end prospect until they've seen everything that they're going to get out of them. Even then, some team would probably make an offer because of his potential.

flyershockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-20-2012, 02:02 PM
  #36
Amateur Hour
Registered User
 
Amateur Hour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Negadelphia
Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
Tradebait. He just doesn't have hockey sense. He only has one move: try and skate really fast to net. It usually doesn't work. For some reason, it worked in last years Buffalo series. He just isn't a guy that is at all physical and that really hurts his linemates. Kind of like Jeff Carter in an odd way, except carter has a nasty wrister.

I'm from New Jersey and I can understand why JVR will never be great. They just don't have good hockey here, I know because I played here. JVR is simply a priveleged kid who never had to work too hard to better than most of the filth that play hockey in NJ. He just doesn't have the nuanced game that a Saskatchewan farm boy like Schenn does.

Because I'm from NJ though, I really would like jvr to be a great player for us, and I do like him. I just don't see the potential other people do and despite his long term contract I can definitely see Holmgren shopping him around. I just think Flyers were fine without him, if not better.
I feel like this is a post I would've written, word for ****ing word. I could not agree more with everything you said; I've always viewed JVR as lacking that special something, the intangible "it" factor, and I have for some time (I've lamented it on these boards countless times in the past). The funny thing is I was at JVR's very first collegiate game (UNH vs. BU), and he pulled off this sick between-the-legs move to get by Kevin Shattenkirk and then beat the goalie far side with an incredible shot. I was so ****ing excited, I even made a post about it on these boards. What troubled me is I never really saw much else from JVR after that. I kept waiting and waiting for him to dominate with his size and skill, but it never happened (then it did briefly during the 2011 playoffs). He's a lot like Carter to me. You see the immense skill, and sometimes both players flash it in a way that's overwhelming. The problem is neither ever sustain that flash of immense of skill. They're largely teases, and I've also never seen the alpha male personality from JVR and Carter (save for Briere's first game back in Buffalo) that's necessary to become an elite player. Neither player is physical -- see: they're soft -- and can easily be taken out of a game; both are way too content to streak down the wing and try to beat the defenseman wide instead of making a move to the middle of the ice in order to create a better scoring chance. The thing about JVR that's concerned me most is that before he got the NHL, he always showed tremendous stick-handling and puck skills. Since he's arrived in the NHL, he's showed virtually nothing of the sort. It's almost like his confidence in that regard has eroded so thoroughly that he's scared to even attempt any moves. That doesn't sound like a player who's going to take his game to the next level some day. All of you who are waiting for it happen with JVR will be doing so for a long time.

Amateur Hour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #37
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,895
vCash: 500
JVR won't be going anywhere. He's lined up to get surgery this week on a torn hip labrum. Usually, the recovery time for the surgery is about 12 weeks and then after that, you're looking at 6 to 8 weeks to get his leg up to par. Forget about trading him - you can't trade an injured player and if you do, you're looking at having to add to the package as an incentive for a team to take him.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2012, 03:27 PM
  #38
ohshay
Registered User
 
ohshay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 32
vCash: 500
I am not ready to give up on him yet. Partly because I still think he can be a great player and silence his detractors but also because selling low like we would be for JVR generally is not a good idea. His contract starts this year, I wouldn't be against trading him depending on what it is because of that. I still like him but this may be a make or break year for him, fair or not.

ohshay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2012, 03:30 PM
  #39
sa cyred
Yea....the Flyers...
 
sa cyred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Traveling...
Country: Cuba
Posts: 15,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanga Giroux View Post
I am not ready to give up on him yet. Partly because I still think he can be a great player and silence his detractors but also because selling low like we would be for JVR generally is not a good idea. His contract starts this year, I wouldn't be against trading him depending on what it is because of that. I still like him but this may be a make or break year for him, fair or not.
It is fair. I dont know how anyone could argue next season isnt important to JVR. If he goes and puts up 30 so points, in 80 or so games, can't keep blaming "he's young, he needs to fill out".

sa cyred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 01:38 PM
  #40
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
It is fair. I dont know how anyone could argue next season isnt important to JVR. If he goes and puts up 30 so points, in 80 or so games, can't keep blaming "he's young, he needs to fill out".
Agreed. This is going to be JVR's fourth season in the league. By then, most of the "bigger forwards" who "take longer to develop" usually start hitting stride by now. There's no more excuses for him. He knows what he needs to do to be successful and it's up to him to decide whether he's willing to make the sacrifices to be great or not. And honestly, 50 points shouldn't be the bench mark next season. JVR needs to hit at least 65 to 70 points (as far as I'm concerned) to determine whether or not he stays.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 01:52 PM
  #41
Broad Street Elite
Registered User
 
Broad Street Elite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
And honestly, 50 points shouldn't be the bench mark next season. JVR needs to hit at least 65 to 70 points (as far as I'm concerned) to determine whether or not he stays.
Eh, I want to see growth in his game. 65-70 points seemed a little bit tough and would definitely exceed the expectations of a 4.25M cap hit.

If he put up 30 goals and 25 assists, that to me, has to be considered a successful year. You can't wash away a year of injury like 2011-2012, but it's not really fair to consider it a year in the development scheme because he really couldn't train the way he needs to for a full season.

Broad Street Elite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 02:00 PM
  #42
MASE THE ACE
Registered User
 
MASE THE ACE's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NJ, USA
Posts: 185
vCash: 500
we need to package bob and JvR and get staal on this team.

MASE THE ACE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 02:56 PM
  #43
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Agreed. This is going to be JVR's fourth season in the league. By then, most of the "bigger forwards" who "take longer to develop" usually start hitting stride by now. There's no more excuses for him. He knows what he needs to do to be successful and it's up to him to decide whether he's willing to make the sacrifices to be great or not. And honestly, 50 points shouldn't be the bench mark next season. JVR needs to hit at least 65 to 70 points (as far as I'm concerned) to determine whether or not he stays.
Go make a list of all the players that scored 70 points this year.

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 03:03 PM
  #44
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 13,997
vCash: 500
There's a fine line between overpaid and underpaid in this league.

Do I want to pay $4m/year for a 50 point forward? No.

Do I want to pay $4m/year for a 60 point forward who stands out in the playoffs? Definitely.

If JVR hits that one more gear of consistency everyone here will worship him. He was basically a 50 point forward while invisible due to injury. Give him health, and I'd be shocked if he doesn't hit that next level of consistency at the very least.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 03:14 PM
  #45
Cmoneyflyguy
Registered User
 
Cmoneyflyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wayne, Pa
Country: United States
Posts: 2,140
vCash: 500
Meltzer
Quote:
Philly Metro's Dave Isaac did some magnificent work in pulling together more details about the nature of James van Riemsdyk's series of injuries this season and impending hip surgery.

It is now confirmed by the player himself that he tried to play through a meniscus tear in his hip, an oblique tear, a concussion and a groin pull, in addition to a late-season broken foot. It also turned out that, during the Flyers-Devils playoff series, JVR's surgically repaired foot became infected and had to be drained of fluid.

No player ever wants to use injuries as an excuse for a subpar season. At the same time, I think the rest of us also need to be fair in recognizing that when someone is dealing with that sheer number -- and short-range severity -- of physical problems, it's going to show up in his performance on the ice.

Cmoneyflyguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 03:41 PM
  #46
xifentoozlerix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: staten island
Posts: 775
vCash: 500
JvR season 1: 0.19 GPG / 0.45 PPG
JvR season 2: 0.28 GPG / 0.53 PPG
JvR season 3: 0.26 GPG / 0.56 PPG

His production didn't really decline at all, despite playing hurt all year. The 40 seconds extra per game he played this year would only account for 2 more points at his season 2 scoring rate, which would give a PPG of 0.56 for that year if he had the extra time. So essentially, JVR produced exactly at the same clip as last year, except this time he did it not even close to healthy.

I think it is safe to say he played as well as could reasonably be expected, and I would definitely expect to see his numbers jump a good bit this year if/when he gets back healthy. It just needs to be a slightly bigger jump than from his first to second season for him to be at 55-60 point range and, I would assume, his playoff performances would become even more consistently dominant. With health though comes more ice time (and in better spots like the top PP unit)... which will only help his numbers.

xifentoozlerix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 03:47 PM
  #47
ohshay
Registered User
 
ohshay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 32
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Meltzer
soft. trade bait. has no drive and doesnt care

ohshay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 07:25 PM
  #48
BobbyClarkeFan16
Registered User
 
BobbyClarkeFan16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Go make a list of all the players that scored 70 points this year.
Players that scored between 65 to 70 points this past year:
Eric Staal
Matt Moulson
Patrick Sharp
Zac Parise
Henrik Zetterberg
Scott Hartnell
Jarome Iginla
Daniel Sedin
Tyler Seguin
Joffrey Lupul
Pavel Datsyuk
PA Parenteau
Teemu Selanne
Brad Richards
Patrick Kane
Valteri Filppula
Alex Ovechkin
Max Paciorrety
Logan Couture
Teddy Purcell

I don't think JVR making the jump to the 65-70 point range is too much to ask for at all when you look at some of the guys on this list.

I get it that you're a defender of JVR and I have no qualms about that. But at some point, the whole "potential" of JVR reaching the next level and actually doing it has to start coming into play. He's been in the league now long enough that we should see some sort of jump in his play. And yes, 65 to 70 points shouldn't be too much to ask of the 2nd overall pick in his draft year. Anything less than 65 has to be considered a huge disappointment.

BobbyClarkeFan16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 07:58 PM
  #49
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,504
vCash: 156
I'm with BC16 on this. I don't think 65-70 points is expecting too much of JVR. If he doesn't begin producing at that clip sometime soon it will be time to start wondering if he's a bust as a second overall.

Of the players listed there, Staal, Daniel Sedin, Seguin, Kane, and Ovechkin were drafted 2nd or higher. The rest went below JVR. Based on him being a 2nd overall pick alone, there is every reason to expect JVR should produce at or near the level of those players, if not better than many of them.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-22-2012, 08:06 PM
  #50
4thline4life
The Mased God
 
4thline4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: n philly
Posts: 2,217
vCash: 50
So people would honestly be disappointed if jvr goes 30-30 next year?

4thline4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.