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05-19-2012, 09:40 PM
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Icedog2735
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Kings' Success & Holmgren

Finally reaching a point where I'm not bitter anymore (almost) and starting to reflect on the season, I was curious about this point. If the Kings go on to the Finals and perhaps win the Cup, do you think the moves Holmgren made would be viewed ultimately as a bust for this season in the court of public opinion. I still stand by the opinion that from a franchise standpoint they were the decisions that had to be made, however I could see the media taking shots at the Flyers if we see Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne raising the Cup in a few weeks. Thoughts?

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05-19-2012, 10:12 PM
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mm6492
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Of course. Media will say whatever gets them views and ratings. Stuff like this is gold for them.

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05-19-2012, 10:27 PM
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Of course our Media is. Thing is though the Flyers only dealt Richards to LA. Jackets made the choice to re-unite Richie and Carts.

Though both of the moves were a changing of the guard, so to speak, for the team from Richie/Carter to Giroux/Hartnell/JVR. Regardless it was win-win for the Flyers and Kings(Jackets....eh.....)

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05-19-2012, 10:34 PM
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Doesn't really matter flyers and kings both are going to be at the top of each respective conferences and divisions largely because of this trade

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05-19-2012, 11:17 PM
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If Holmgren had traded Carter anywhere but Columbus, Carter probably doesn't whine his way outta there and end up in LA. With that being said, we need to see if this new young core can achieve the success of the Kings. It's really a 5 year deal before you can give it a final grade.

Early results (incorrectly) were largely based on numbers. I read and heard more than once this season how Wayne Simmonds had more goals than Richards so we got the better of the trade. I tried to talk sense into these kool-aid drinkers by telling them Wayne Simmonds can't tie Mike Richards skates. I don't think any of it sank in though.

Richards and Carter aren't guys who can be the centerpiece of a cup winner but will thrive in their roles on LA for many years. If this team gets blown up in a few years because all this youth doesn't work out, and LA ends up with a cup, even the biggest stepford would have to admit LA got the better of the deal.

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05-19-2012, 11:29 PM
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I think the national and local media will have different takes. The national media will look at it like a big win for the Kings, while the local media who didn't like Richards in the first place will stick with their narrative about the moves being a big success.

This was discussed briefly on Daily News Live last week I think, and they all downplayed Richards' and Carter's contributions to the Kings. I think that'll be what we'll see. I also think most of the fans will support the organization and the moves they made, unless maybe the Kings win multiple Cups and the Flyers get squat.

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05-19-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icedog2735 View Post
Finally reaching a point where I'm not bitter anymore (almost) and starting to reflect on the season, I was curious about this point. If the Kings go on to the Finals and perhaps win the Cup, do you think the moves Holmgren made would be viewed ultimately as a bust for this season in the court of public opinion. I still stand by the opinion that from a franchise standpoint they were the decisions that had to be made, however I could see the media taking shots at the Flyers if we see Richards, Carter, and to a lesser extent Gagne raising the Cup in a few weeks. Thoughts?
Wasn't it the Philadelphia media that ran off at the mouth about Dry Island, locker room divides and Richards' inability to answer thair same questions over and over the way they wanted them answered all of which apparently led in large part to the trades? Can't see the media *****ing about the Richards and Carter trades even if they and the Kings win the next 3 Stanley Cup finals. But don't worry, the Flyers will continue to be contenders with their youth.

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05-19-2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I think the national and local media will have different takes. The national media will look at it like a big win for the Kings, while the local media who didn't like Richards in the first place will stick with their narrative about the moves being a big success.

This was discussed briefly on Daily News Live last week I think, and they all downplayed Richards' and Carter's contributions to the Kings. I think that'll be what we'll see. I also think most of the fans will support the organization and the moves they made, unless maybe the Kings win multiple Cups and the Flyers get squat.
Whatever the Daily News Live is, maybe they should talk to some experts with the Kings (and Flyers) about the Richards and Carter contributions to the Kings run. Maybe they should consider where the Kings would be with Schenn, Simmonds and Jack Johnson instead of these two.

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05-19-2012, 11:46 PM
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For L.A. it was a win-now trade, we were clearly trading for the future, so the expectations were different for this season. L.A. should have been better , The Flyers should have been worse.

I dont think anyone thought they would be this dominant, but we traded the better players. You cannot look at the moves made in the offseason and judge them by this season alone.

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05-19-2012, 11:51 PM
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Im assuming the Flyers knew that with this trade there would be a step back as did most of us, so how can we judge it from our side after 1 season? I can see it as a win win for both sides, as the Kings are most likely going to win the Cup.


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05-19-2012, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEDrama View Post
For L.A. it was a win-now trade, we were clearly trading for the future, so the expectations were different for this season. L.A. should have been better , The Flyers should have been worse.

I dont think anyone thought they would be this dominant, but we traded the better players. You cannot look at the moves made in the offseason and judge them by this season alone.
Richards and Carter are still young

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05-20-2012, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
Richards and Carter are still young
I know. They got younger. I didnt say they got better, that remains to be seen, which is why this is a wait-and-see approach and not something that can be evaluated after one season.

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05-20-2012, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Im assuming the Flyers knew that with this trade there would be a step back as did most of us, so how can we judge it from our side after 1 season? I can see it as a win win for both sides, as the Kings are most likely going to win the Cup.
So do I. It doesn't matter how much they've improved, it only matters how much we have. We didn't start from a position, where we were the best team in the league and the goal was only to prevent other teams from reaching our level. We needed to get better, so even if the Kings improved more than we did, it still doesn't change the fact that if we improve, we get closer to the Cup.

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05-20-2012, 01:21 AM
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zarley zelepukin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Whatever the Daily News Live is, maybe they should talk to some experts with the Kings (and Flyers) about the Richards and Carter contributions to the Kings run. Maybe they should consider where the Kings would be with Schenn, Simmonds and Jack Johnson instead of these two.
It's a local sports talk show with local media and sometimes athletes as guests. Rick Tocchet was one of the members of the panel who was pretty dismissive of what they've brought to the Kings. If LA wins it, I think the local media here will talk a lot about Jonathan Quick as the biggest reason it happens. Even though it probably won't be true.

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05-20-2012, 09:04 AM
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About a week ago an idiot writer in the Winnipeg Free Press (Gary Lawless) wrote an article calling the Richards trade boneheaded. Basically giving him all kinds of credit for the Kings' success. No mention of Brown, Quick, etc. He dismissed Schenn and Simmonds as "nice players that have some upside." Major hack job from a buffoon. Richards has a following here since Kenora is close by (2 hour drive).

My opinion: the trade was necessary. I loved the way Richie played but his off-ice maturity and leadership appeared lacking. Schenn scored in the play-offs and I look for him to continue to get better in all aspects.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...150592375.html

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05-20-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnEDrama View Post
For L.A. it was a win-now trade, we were clearly trading for the future, so the expectations were different for this season. L.A. should have been better , The Flyers should have been worse.

I dont think anyone thought they would be this dominant, but we traded the better players. You cannot look at the moves made in the offseason and judge them by this season alone.
Not true at all. Voynov and Doughty are both 22, King and Nolan are also quite young, Richards, Carter, Kopitar, Brown and Quick are around 26-27. I didn't see them in win now mode, I thought it would be a year or two away. If anyone is in win now mode, it's Philly. Kimmo, Jagr, Pronger, Briere, Lilja, Kubina are all senior citizens. I'm not home to check but I think Scuderi and Mitchell are the seniors in LA and are around 35. I believe they are actually the second youngest team in the league, they just did a better job of balancing. With the Flyers, you have a 40 year old first line RW who is on the PP. Kimmo and Pronger each anchored their pairs, played the pp and pk. Kimmo and Pronger (when healthy) shouldn't be playing the minutes they are at their age and the injuries to them over the years has cost them. Plus, look at the starting goalies, one is 26 or 27, the other is 31. Quick Is in his prime, Bryz is on the other side of his. They also have Bernier who is younger and will likely be traded for a quality player.

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05-20-2012, 10:06 AM
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Carter, Richards and Gagne were the core and leaders of the 2010 Flyers. They are now supporting players on LA and play a great role. I don't think we would've gotten as far as the second round had we not made the trades.

2013 baby!

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05-20-2012, 11:12 AM
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Not true at all. Voynov and Doughty are both 22, King and Nolan are also quite young, Richards, Carter, Kopitar, Brown and Quick are around 26-27. I didn't see them in win now mode, I thought it would be a year or two away. If anyone is in win now mode, it's Philly. Kimmo, Jagr, Pronger, Briere, Lilja, Kubina are all senior citizens. I'm not home to check but I think Scuderi and Mitchell are the seniors in LA and are around 35. I believe they are actually the second youngest team in the league, they just did a better job of balancing. With the Flyers, you have a 40 year old first line RW who is on the PP. Kimmo and Pronger each anchored their pairs, played the pp and pk. Kimmo and Pronger (when healthy) shouldn't be playing the minutes they are at their age and the injuries to them over the years has cost them. Plus, look at the starting goalies, one is 26 or 27, the other is 31. Quick Is in his prime, Bryz is on the other side of his. They also have Bernier who is younger and will likely be traded for a quality player.
I'd agree with this pre-lockout. But now with the cap world, having a young team that is doing very well doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good for years to come. As these young player, that are performing well, once their EL contract or 2nd contract expire they'll look for a significant raise. Next year LA might lose Stoll, Penner... In 2 years, Quick will ask for a significant raise from is current 1.8 cap hit, Bernier will probably want to go play #1 somewhere else.

Anyways, my point is in this cap space era it is very rare to see the same team for 3+ years in a row (Young or not) and be a contender every year.

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05-20-2012, 11:22 AM
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We did a great trade to Columbus and one that could be a good one to LA.

I forget that Holmgren also traded Quick, Brown and Doughty to LA....

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05-20-2012, 11:28 AM
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I'd agree with this pre-lockout. But now with the cap world, having a young team that is doing very well doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good for years to come. As these young player, that are performing well, once their EL contract or 2nd contract expire they'll look for a significant raise. Next year LA might lose Stoll, Penner... In 2 years, Quick will ask for a significant raise from is current 1.8 cap hit, Bernier will probably want to go play #1 somewhere else.

Anyways, my point is in this cap space era it is very rare to see the same team for 3+ years in a row (Young or not) and be a contender every year.
They will likely let Penner walk and Quick will definitely get a raise. Doughty, Kopitar, Richards, Carter are all locked up long term and I think Brown is for a couple more years. Mitchell just extended for 2 more. So a good number of players are set and these guys are either in their prime or just getting there, except Mitchell. King, Nolan and Voynov - I'm not sure of their contract status but while they're having a good run, it doesn't mean that will continue. I think their age balance with young, prime and vets is just as perfect as you can get. By the time Mitchell and Scuderi are done, Doughty, Greene and Voynov will be in their prime.

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05-20-2012, 11:37 AM
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screw it. who cares what the media says either way. I liked the moves then and i still do now. I didn't really want to get rid of richards but i love schenn and simmonds so i'm cool with it and theres no way i wouldn't trade carter for couturier over and over and over again. We needed the goalie and our team is better now with these moves then last summer. it's just gonna take us a year or 2 longer. They didn't win the cup yet anyway. maybe this thread should be answered in a couple weeks.

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05-20-2012, 11:45 AM
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When you consider schenn and simmer were not big components and Johnson was struggling the kings added our two best fwds at the time for not a lot of their roster. Of course they are going to be good. That line up minus richards and carter had underperformed for awhile but still had a very nice roster. Not like Richards and carter lead them to the conf finals. That was brown and quick

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05-20-2012, 11:54 AM
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I think the local media and the haters will still desperately cling onto the idea that the Flyers couldn't win with them and will downplay their roles on the Kings. Of course the Kings success with them blows up that theory. This is the third Conference Finals they've been to in 5 years and should be their second trip to Stanley Cup Finals in 3 years. They came close to winning without a goalie and they may finally win now that they have a real goalie. It's funny how that works.

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05-20-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEDrama View Post
For L.A. it was a win-now trade, we were clearly trading for the future, so the expectations were different for this season. L.A. should have been better , The Flyers should have been worse.

I dont think anyone thought they would be this dominant, but we traded the better players. You cannot look at the moves made in the offseason and judge them by this season alone.
Two things, in a post that I generally agree:

-Ed Snider doesn't really get sold on 'the future.' He wants to win the Cup now, since he doesn't really have that much of a future to wait for. If the Kings win the Cup this season, he'll take June 23, 2011 to his grave.

-Because of that, so many people are always sold on the Flyers being able to win the Cup every year, going into the season. Many people felt that the simple removal of Carter and Richards opened the door to be able to do that (despite people ignoring how close they came 12 months before the trade). The reaction of those people will be interesting to watch try to spin about "they weren't going to do it here" and whathaveyou, but even they were still good trades to make, people would have to accept (or be in denial of) a massive, egregious, gross miscalcuation about the potential of the team's fortunes on June 20, 2011.

People have and will continue to say they love all the players we got in the trades, but are lying to themselves if they wouldn't not do/undo the trades to ensure we win the Cup this season.

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05-20-2012, 12:03 PM
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Two things, in a post that I generally agree:

-Ed Snider doesn't really get sold on 'the future.' He wants to win the Cup now, since he doesn't really have that much of a future to wait for. If the Kings win the Cup this season, he'll take June 23, 2011 to his grave.

-Because of that, so many people are always sold on the Flyers being able to win the Cup every year, going into the season. Many people felt that the simple removal of Carter and Richards opened the door to be able to do that (despite people ignoring how close they came 12 months before the trade). The reaction of those people will be interesting to watch try to spin about "they weren't going to do it here" and whathaveyou, but even they were still good trades to make, people would have to accept (or be in denial of) a massive, egregious, gross miscalcuation about the potential of the team's fortunes on June 20, 2011.

People have and will continue to say they love all the players we got in the trades, but are lying to themselves if they wouldn't not do/undo the trades to ensure we win the Cup this season.
You honestly think Richards and Carter would've been the difference? The Kings have JONATHON QUICK. We have Ilya Bryzgalov. The Kings' defense is better than ours. Just because Richards and Carter happen to be on the team doesn't make them the difference-makers.

I still can't fathom how you could think if you plot Richards and Carter (which, obviously, we couldn't fit under the cap) on the team we'd all of a sudden be a Cup-winning team. The fact is, our weak points are defense and goaltending, neither of which #18 or #17 would've helped with.

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