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Trading a Center for a : Top line winger OR Top pairing defender?

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05-21-2012, 07:06 AM
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CobraAcesS
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Trading a Center for a : Top line winger OR Top pairing defender?

Ok there has been some back and fourth argument between me and a few people regarding trading one of our centers for a top line winger or a 1st pairing defender.

So below I am going to put together two scenarios that I think are reasonably feasible and let everyone else decide. I know that people think we don't have that strong of a chance at Parise but I am going to use him here because I think otherwise. I think especially if we made some of these moves it would go along way in proving that we are serious about contending, and make it easier to land free-agents I.E. Parise or Semin..

The pieces used and moves I made to accomplish this. :

#1

2nd rnd pick 2012 + Jone's rights for Parise's rights :

I realize that's over payment a bit but IF Parise's rights are being shopped we are going to have to beat out some other teams in order to make it happen. At least with Jone's rights it gives them a head start on a cheaper top 6 winger with size to replace some of what they lost in Parise. All in all I think it would be enough..

#2

Matt Duchene for Keith Yandle & Martin Hanzal :

I would imagine with Phoenix's top end defensive depth (OEL & Runblad) they could afford to lose Yandle. Hanzal would be a pretty good option for a youngish (25) 3rd line center with a serious amount of grit. They might not like adding Hanzal into the deal but as you can see Phoenix needs higher end offensive forwards and one of the most important places they need it is at center. So they over pay a little here but it fits both teams needs pretty well IMO. Remember they picked up Vermette for a 2nd round pick I believe. (Someone can correct me on that if I am wrong.)

#3

Tyson Barrie for Magnus Paajarvi :

We have some obvious depth at defense and EDM has serious need for young NHL ready puck moving defense. I would imagine it's enough for MPS. I would put MPS on O'Reilly & Landeskog's line and let him work with those two to build his defensive game and some physicality. MPS has the same build as Landeskog and was at one time compared to Forsberg so the kid has the tools. I think playing with those two along with a change of scenery could give him the boost he needs.

MPS's scouting report :

Director of Central Scouting E. J. McGuire
"Magnus perhaps is the stereotype of the skilled Swede coming over here in recent years outside speed extraordinaire, ability to freeze defenders and make all his good moves work even more effectively. He was a good contributor to his team at the World Junior tournament and I think will be an essential member of any NHL team in years to come. He showed, at the World Junior championships, why the 1980 comparisons to Mats Naslund, Kent Nilsson and more recently a Peter Forsberg will follow him over to his NHL team. Hell be a high draft pick and Im sure hes going to be a combination of the kind of offensive flare and skills that have made those other three predecessors great NHL players."

Timra head coach Stephan Lundh
"The sky is the limit for Magnus. He's a very skilled and creative player. Magnus is a player who has a good attitude and does his best every game and practice. He wants to improve and he likes the challenge."

So here is the roster done on cap geek. The players outside of the top 12 and top 6 on defense are just there to show depth. The cap hit would be a bit lower considering we would probably not carry all of those guys on the roster at one time.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.667m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / Peter Mueller ($2.200m)
Magnus Paajarvi ($1.525m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($4.000m) / Gabriel Landeskog ($3.575m)
Jamie McGinn ($2.500m) / Martin Hanzal ($3.100m) / Steve Downie ($2.500m) (I think this line could just be called "The line of death" lol)
Chuck Kobasew ($1.250m) / Jay McClement ($1.800m) / Milan Hejduk ($2.000m)
Mark Olver ($0.900m) / Joey Hishon ($1.200m) / Brad Malone ($0.875m)
DEFENSEMEN
Erik Johnson ($4.500m) / Keith Yandle ($5.250m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.800m)
Cameron Gaunce ($0.846m) / Ryan Wilson ($1.500m)
Stefan Elliott ($0.900m) / Duncan Siemens ($1.419m)
GOALTENDERS
Semyon Varlamov ($2.833m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.250m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,239,999; BONUSES: $4,247,500
CAP SPACE (25-man roster): $60,001

Added : Parise, Yandle, MPS, Hanzal

Lost : Duchene, Barrie, 2nd 2012 (In either the deal for MPS or adding Hanzal we might need to add but I don't think it would be anything to significant)


-------

So onto the second part : (Trading a center for a top line winger)

#1

Matt Duchene + Peter Mueller for Bobby Ryan & Peter Holland (You could remove Holland & Mueller and then keep Mueller in a top 6 role as well which would negate the need for my next trade.)

Holland will probably be ready next season after having a pretty good year in the AHL. It's a bit of a risk with him but hes a big strong center that is known for his two way game. If he wasn't ready for a 3rd line center role then McClemment or Malone could step into that spot.


Peter Holland - C - Anaheim Ducks (HF's scouting report)
Height: 6-1, Weight: 188

A big, offensively talented center, Peter Holland is a noted finisher who also has the ability to set up chances for his linemates. He has a powerful skating stride and can use his 6-3, 200-pound frame to protect the puck and work through traffic. An incredibly smart hockey player at both ends of the rink, the 21-year-old Holland is well-suited to the responsibilities of a center in the defensive end and at the faceoff dot. A lack of consistency has been his biggest knock, but ample opportunity with Syracuse in the AHL led to a productive rookie season that helped even out his performance. Anaheim envisions him as an eventual top-six center, and a full-time role with the big club may not be far off for Holland.

Tyson Barrie for Magnus Paajarvi :

I won't go over this again but I think it works well in either scenario or at least another similar trade with the same premise in mind. Without something like this in either scenario and without Jones in the lineup I believe we would be forced to use Downie or Hejduk in a top 6 role which I don't like relying on all that much.

#3

2nd rnd pick 2012 + Jone's rights for Parise's rights :


#4

Pickup either of Suter, Carle, Garrison, or Jackman in free-agency depending on who makes it there and what their contract demands are. TSN mentions Stuart but I think everyone knows hes going a little farther west.

And here is the roster built with cap geek based on trading a center for a top line winger (Ryan). : (Keep in mind something close to 4M would come off the cap hit as not all of these guys would be carried on the roster at once.)

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.667m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Magnus Paajarvi ($1.525m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($4.000m) / Gabriel Landeskog ($3.575m)
Jamie McGinn ($2.500m) / Peter Holland ($1.295m) / Steve Downie ($2.500m)
Chuck Kobasew ($1.250m) / Jay McClement ($1.800m) / Milan Hejduk ($2.000m)
Mark Olver ($0.900m) / Joey Hishon ($1.200m) / Brad Malone ($0.875m)
DEFENSEMEN
Erik Johnson ($4.500m) / UFA Suter, Carle, Garrison, Jackman ($6.667m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.800m)
Cameron Gaunce ($0.846m) / Ryan Wilson ($1.500m)
Stefan Elliott ($0.900m) / Duncan Siemens ($1.419m)
GOALTENDERS
Semyon Varlamov ($2.833m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.250m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,751,665; BONUSES: $4,672,500
CAP SPACE (25-man roster):- $2,451,665

Added : Parise, Ryan, Holland, MPS, Suter/Carle (I have no idea what Carle would actually cost but I think those two are probably the most likely targets.)

Lost : Duchene, Mueller, Barrie, 2nd 2012, 7M or less in cap space


There is a reason I have the trades in the order that they are in when it comes to this scenario. You would want to trade for Ryan before getting Parise in order to give yourself a better chance at signing him. Also since Anaheim is in the same conference they might try to bend us over after seeing us trade for Parise's rights. Just a thought it's what I would do.. lol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I think both of those scenario's are reasonable. Some of the deals might take a little tweaking but I don't think it would be much. This was inspired by some debates Ive had along with the recent release of TSN's article about Colorado's off-season needs.

The question now is which roster would you take or what would you do differently?

Are the trades and signings realistic? If not why? What would need to be changed?

If you were the GM how would you go about filling the holes on our roster this off-season? What would it look like when your done?

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05-21-2012, 07:26 AM
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Ivan13
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As much as I would like to see it there's no way Phoenix trades Hanzal and Yandle for Duchene, Hanzal + Yandle is worth much more than Ryan + Holland. And I'm not a big fan of MPS.

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05-21-2012, 07:31 AM
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I'd rather have
McGinn-Stastny-Duke
Lando-Radar-Downie
Parise-Duchene-Mueller
McCleod-McClement-Olver

than either of those lineups. Especially since my lineup doesn't include MPS in a top 9 slot.

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05-21-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
As much as I would like to see it there's no way Phoenix trades Hanzal and Yandle for Duchene, Hanzal + Yandle is worth much more than Ryan + Holland. And I'm not a big fan of MPS.
I think it depends on how badly they want that offensive star first line center. Their new management will also be looking to sell tickets. Which a new player like Duchene would do..

At least that's how I would sell it. Like I said you could add from our side but I actually don't think it would need to be all that much. They are a sinking ship and a young star player could help them work towards rejuvenating the fan base.

If Hanzal had to be kept out of the deal they could add something smaller and we would need to play McClemment in the 3rd line role. It still works though but if that happened I would hope we take a serious look at Kelly or Stoll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I'd rather have
McGinn-Stastny-Duke
Lando-Radar-Downie
Parise-Duchene-Mueller
McCleod-McClement-Olver

than either of those lineups. Especially since my lineup doesn't include MPS in a top 9 slot.
Every time Olver was moved up to the 3rd line Landeskog was moved to the right side. So that makes me think hes not as comfortable playing right wing. His face-off percentages sucked when he was played at center as well. It's a huge question as to if McLeod is going to be resigned as well.

How would you fix the defense issue then? If we signed Parise he would be expecting to play with Stastny I would guess but who knows. I also don't think the team like it is would be as strong of a draw for Parise.

Without MPS you could also move Hejduk or Downie into that slot. But if you moved Downie up you would be without a seriously potent checking line. It's not exactly the most integral part of either scenario. The point is to seriously upgrade the top 6 or add a top pairing defender while staying a young gritty team.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 05-21-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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05-21-2012, 07:48 AM
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At this point Parise is just a dream, and MPS in a Top 6 role we r ****ed. And that PNX trade is just day dreaming. Rather make small moves in a crappy free agent market like this
I'd rather have

McGinn-Stastny-Hejduk/Jones <-- Preferably Jones
Landeskog-ROR-Olver
Mueller-Duchene-Downie
Kobasew-McClement-FA/Malone

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05-21-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by The Infamous Tank View Post
At this point Parise is just a dream, and MPS in a Top 6 role we r ****ed. And that PNX trade is just day dreaming. Rather make small moves in a crappy free agent market like this
I'd rather have

McGinn-Stastny-Hejduk/Jones <-- Preferably Jones
Landeskog-ROR-Olver
Mueller-Duchene-Downie
Kobasew-McClement-FA/Malone
I think Duchene gets buried behind Stastny & O'Reilly in that case. Especially with the way our teams system is going. Gritty team/ Strong fore-checking..

If Duchene does not pickup his two-way game he will fall out of favor with Sacco quick. Both him and Mueller will.. Just something to think about..

Duchene & Mueller will be wasted getting 13-14 minutes a night while we all watch their values plummet even further.


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05-21-2012, 07:53 AM
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Trade #1: 2nd rnd pick 2012 + Jone's rights for Parise's rights.

There is no guarantee that Parise will sign in Colorado. Why risk a 2nd rounder, especially when the Av's don't have their first rounder. Just wait till the UFA period and make your best pitch. Also, NJ might not be interested Jones. If they are, why wouldn't that just wait till free agency? This is a bad trade for both teams.

Trade #2: Matt Duchene for Keith Yandle & Martin Hanzal :

Why on earth would Phoenix do this? This is a horrible trade for Phoenix. There are other options for Phoenix to upgrade their offence without trading their best defenseman, not to mention the value being way off.

Trade #3: Tyson Barrie for Magnus Paajarvi

Not enough value for Paajavi.

Overall: You sent out Duchene, Barrie, Jones and a 2nd for Parise, Yandle, Hanzal, and Paajarvi. This doesn't seem a wee bit lopsided to you?

Lineup: You have $60,000 in cap space. How are you going to give anyone a raise? Not to mention Hishon and Siemens likely aren't ready for the NHL yet.

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05-21-2012, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
Trade #1: 2nd rnd pick 2012 + Jone's rights for Parise's rights.

There is no guarantee that Parise will sign in Colorado. Why risk a 2nd rounder, especially when the Av's don't have their first rounder. Just wait till the UFA period and make your best pitch. Also, NJ might not be interested Jones. If they are, why wouldn't that just wait till free agency? This is a bad trade for both teams.

Trade #2: Matt Duchene for Keith Yandle & Martin Hanzal :

Why on earth would Phoenix do this? This is a horrible trade for Phoenix. There are other options for Phoenix to upgrade their offence without trading their best defenseman, not to mention the value being way off.

Trade #3: Tyson Barrie for Magnus Paajarvi

Not enough value for Paajavi.

Overall: You sent out Duchene, Barrie, Jones and a 2nd for Parise, Yandle, Hanzal, and Paajarvi. This doesn't seem a wee bit lopsided to you?

Lineup: You have $60,000 in cap space. How are you going to give anyone a raise? Not to mention Hishon and Siemens likely aren't ready for the NHL yet.


Those guys were put on the roster to show depth they wouldn't be carried on the roster full time and the total cap hit for the roster would be significantly lower. Something like 5M less on the second deal..

Yandle is also not their best defender anymore. OEL has surpassed him in most Phoenix fans eyes AND on the roster as well. I am pretty sure OEL is getting at least the same or more minutes than Yandle now.

What exactly are those better options you speak of for them? And it's pretty easy to say it's lopsided when you add Parise in there. UFA rights are not worth that much.. I don't even think NJ gave up that much for Kovalchuk's rights.


Last edited by Frenchy: 05-21-2012 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Deleted one part , no need to be rude
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05-21-2012, 08:00 AM
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Every time Olver was moved up to the 3rd line Landeskog was moved to the right side. So that makes me think hes not as comfortable playing right wing. His face-off percentages sucked when he was played at center as well. It's a huge question as to if McLeod is going to be resigned as well.

How would you fix the defense issue then? If we signed Parise he would be expecting to play with Stastny I would guess but who knows. I also don't think the team like it is would be as strong of a draw for Parise.

Without MPS you could also move Hejduk or Downie into that slot. But if you moved Downie up you would be without a seriously potent checking line. It's not exactly the most integral part of either scenario. The point is to seriously upgrade the top 6 or add a top pairing defender while staying a young gritty team.
If Parise wants to come here having less gifted centers for him to play with would make him less interested. He'd still play with Staz and Mueller on the PP. That said I don't think we need him, re-sign McC, Jones and our RFAs and we're solid up front. IMO we need to go after Suter and Garrison because getting EJ a partner is our biggest need.

PS wtf do you have for MPS? He's fast, but he's not even doing great in the AHL, I'm pretty sure Gaunce and Barrie both outscored him last year.

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05-21-2012, 08:03 AM
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If Parise wants to come here having less gifted centers for him to play with would make him less interested. He'd still play with Staz and Mueller on the PP. That said I don't think we need him, re-sign McC, Jones and our RFAs and we're solid up front. IMO we need to go after Suter and Garrison because getting EJ a partner is our biggest need.

PS wtf do you have for MPS? He's fast, but he's not even doing great in the AHL, I'm pretty sure Gaunce and Barrie both outscored him last year.
From what Ive read hes actually doing pretty well in the AHL and is or was an integral part of their AHL's post season. (I have not paid attention to the AHL stuff recently. Just stuff Ive read in threads regarding him recently.)

And I think adding Yandle or Ryan would make him more interested but that's IMO.

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05-21-2012, 08:07 AM
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I think Duchene gets berried behind Stastny & O'Reilly in that case. Especially with the way our teams system is going. Gritty team/ Strong fore-checking..

If Duchene does not pickup his two-way game he will fall out of favor with Sacco quick. Both him and Mueller will.. Just something to think about..

Duchene & Mueller will be wasted getting 13-14 minutes a night while we all watch their values plummet even further.
Dude, Duchene played more than 14 minutes a night with a bum knee. Fully healthy he's suddenly going to get less ice time? What kind of sense does that make?

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05-21-2012, 08:12 AM
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Dude, Duchene played more than 14 minutes a night with a bum knee. Fully healthy he's suddenly going to get less ice time? What kind of sense does that make?
"Matt Duchene endured a trying 2011-2012 season, with injuries limiting him to 58 games and, strangely enough, he played a career-low 16:17 per game when healthy, leading to a meagre 28 points in 58 games."

That's his average for the season. That means he played a little more at the start of the year and a little less at the end of the year when he was playing injured.

Still 16 minutes is nothing significant.. Like I said if his two way game does not improve immediately he will get buried by the other two.


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05-21-2012, 08:15 AM
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No matter what Duchene does he won't be beaten with Berries.

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05-21-2012, 08:19 AM
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No matter what Duchene does he won't be beaten with Berries.
LMAO

Nice.. yeah it's buried lol

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05-21-2012, 08:51 AM
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Those guys were put on the roster to show depth they wouldn't be carried on the roster full time and the total cap hit for the roster would be significantly lower. Something like 5M less on the second deal..

Yandle is also not their best defender anymore. OEL has surpassed him in most Phoenix fans eyes AND on the roster as well. I am pretty sure OEL is getting at least the same or more minutes than Yandle now.

What exactly are those better options you speak of for them? And it's pretty easy to say it's lopsided when you add Parise in there. UFA rights are not worth that much.. I don't even think NJ gave up that much for Kovalchuk's rights.
Relax. It's fine you just wanted to show Hishon and Siemens for depth purposes, I just don't think that either will be NHL ready to start the season.

OEL has a lot of hype right now, but he's not a better defenseman than Yandle.

The better option for Phoenix to upgrade their offence is called free agency. Is an option where they don't have to trade, arguably their best player to upgrade their forwards. I'm sure there will also be plenty of other options available over the summer as well.

It's lopsided because overall your trades are lopsided. Kovalchuk was traded just before the deadline I believe, so it wasn't his rights that were traded.


Last edited by Frenchy: 05-21-2012 at 09:25 AM. Reason: edp
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05-21-2012, 09:02 AM
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No matter what Duchene does he won't be beaten with Berries.
Well if he's not careful he could get himself into a jam.

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05-21-2012, 09:03 AM
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Relax. It's fine you just wanted to show Hishon and Siemens for depth purposes, I just don't think that either will be NHL ready to start the season.

OEL has a lot of hype right now, but he's not a better defenseman than Yandle.

The better option for Phoenix to upgrade their offence is called free agency. Is an option where they don't have to trade, arguably their best player to upgrade their forwards. I'm sure there will also be plenty of other options available over the summer as well.

It's lopsided because overall your trades are lopsided. Kovalchuk was traded just before the deadline I believe, so it wasn't his rights that were traded.
This season he's easily better than Yandle, Yandle is playing pretty poorly compared to when he was a Norris candidate.

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05-21-2012, 09:05 AM
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Relax. It's fine you just wanted to show Hishon and Siemens for depth purposes, I just don't think that either will be NHL ready to start the season.

OEL has a lot of hype right now, but he's not a better defenseman than Yandle.

The better option for Phoenix to upgrade their offence is called free agency. Is an option where they don't have to trade, arguably their best player to upgrade their forwards. I'm sure there will also be plenty of other options available over the summer as well.

It's lopsided because overall your trades are lopsided. Kovalchuk was traded just before the deadline I believe, so it wasn't his rights that were traded.
Ahh yeah your right, but it's pretty well known that UFA rights are not exactly worth that much regardless of who it is. I did mention that it was overpayment on our side a bit.

PHX is going to have a hard to attracting any of the big free-agents I think and as it's been said. Outside of Parise & Semin their isn't very many great options out there beyond those two. Especially for a team that is known for their defensive system. I think that probably hurts them a bit when trying to attract "offensive minded" free-agents. In their case I would imagine to add anything significant they need to trade for a signed player. Turris didn't even want to stay and their center depth isn't so much that he couldn't of made it into their top 6.

Other players see that as well I would guess.


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This season he's easily better than Yandle, Yandle is playing pretty poorly compared to when he was a Norris candidate.
Their both LH D as well so I would imagine Yandle is getting pushed down to the second pair as well. He may not be to happy with that regardless of what he says to the media.

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05-21-2012, 09:08 AM
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This season he's easily better than Yandle, Yandle is playing pretty poorly compared to when he was a Norris candidate.
I disagree. I think OEL is having a good playoff run, but Yandle is the better defenseman.

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05-21-2012, 09:11 AM
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I disagree. I think OEL is having a good playoff run, but Yandle is the better defenseman.
OEL has been talked about since the beginning of 2012 as far as earning top pairing minutes I believe. I am pretty sure it's not just the playoffs.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 05-21-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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05-21-2012, 09:15 AM
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Ivan13
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I disagree. I think OEL is having a good playoff run, but Yandle is the better defenseman.
Does he have a better track record and is he more proven than OEL? Yes.
Is he the better player this season? Not by a longshot.

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05-21-2012, 09:17 AM
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Ahh yeah your right, but it's pretty well known that UFA rights are not exactly worth that much regardless of who it is. I did mention that it was overpayment on our side a bit.

PHX is going to have a hard to attracting any of the big free-agents I think and as it's been said. Outside of Parise & Semin their isn't very many great options out there beyond those two. Especially for a team that is known for their defensive system. I think that probably hurts them a bit when trying to attract "offensive minded" free-agents. In their case I would imagine to add anything significant they need to trade for a signed player. Turris didn't even want to stay and their center depth isn't so much that he couldn't of made it into their top 6.
It's not so much the value, as it is the risk. Why not just wait until Parise is a UFA to make a pitch? I really don't think an extra month of negotiation with the Avs is going to woo Parise into not testing the market.

I would have to think Phoenix has just as much pull in the free agency market as the Avs. They have a good group of younger players, and will be coming of a deep playoff run, hypothetically they could even win the cup.

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05-21-2012, 09:18 AM
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Does he have a better track record and is he more proven than OEL? Yes.
Is he the better player this season? Not by a longshot.
This season, yes. These play-offs, no.

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05-21-2012, 09:20 AM
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It's not so much the value, as it is the risk. Why not just wait until Parise is a UFA to make a pitch? I really don't think an extra month of negotiation with the Avs is going to woo Parise into not testing the market.

I would have to think Phoenix has just as much pull in the free agency market as the Avs. They have a good group of younger players, and will be coming of a deep playoff run, hypothetically they could even win the cup.
Money? Even tough Colorado isn't a big spender either in the last couple of years, but at least our owner has the money to spend and he previously showed he's willing to spend to win.

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05-21-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
It's not so much the value, as it is the risk. Why not just wait until Parise is a UFA to make a pitch? I really don't think an extra month of negotiation with the Avs is going to woo Parise into not testing the market.

I would have to think Phoenix has just as much pull in the free agency market as the Avs. They have a good group of younger players, and will be coming of a deep playoff run, hypothetically they could even win the cup.
I think it would especially if we were willing to offer market value. Like something close to what Richards & Kovalchuk got.

If we were trying to get him cheaper.. Yeah no.. I don't think it would make a difference.


Check it out OEL averaged 22:06 TOI/G and Yandle averaged 22:20 TOI/G in the regular season. That's pretty fN close, I would guess it wasn't that close at the beginning of the season which means somewhere in the season OEL started to over take Yandle.

In the playoffs its not even close.. OEL - 25:19 TOI/G Yandle is 4th on their team at 21:17 TOI/G

So there is truth to both OEL passing him in the second half of the regular season and clearly has surpassed him in the playoffs.


It would be painful but I think I would give up Duchene for Yandle straight up. IMO Yandle is better than Suter when hes at his best. He scores more points on average I think and from what I have seen watching games hes more physical as well. (Could be wrong just basing that on games Ive watched.) Weird Suter actually has more hits but so far in all the NSH games I have watched Ive never really seen him lay anyone out and I know Ive seen Yandle lay people out.


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